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    Daniel Dennett's Super-Snopes And The Future Of Religion
    By Samuel Kenyon | October 12th 2010 02:22 AM | 26 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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    Lead software engineer at iRobot Corp., user experience (UX) designer, agile manager, actor, writer, atheist transhumanist. My blog will attempt...

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    "We're all alone, no chaperone"
    --Cole Porter


    Despite his resemblance to Santa Claus, Daniel Dennett wants to disillusion the believers.  If we're all adults, why can't we reveal the truth that God(s), like Santa, are childish fantasies?

    Earlier tonight I attended Dennett's talk "What should replace religion?" at Tufts University, which was kindly hosted by the Tufts' Freethought Society as part of their Freethought Week.

    Atheist groups will have to compete with religion in the realm of social activities such as church services.  People won't leave churches if they don't have something else to give them the excitement, the music, the ecstasy, the group affiliation, the team building, the moral community, etc. that churches provide.  Many churches already contain atheists who go for all the other stuff besides the doctrine.  In fact, some of the preachers themselves do not believe the doctrine.

    Daniel Dennett
    I won't go over the entire talk, but I'd like to talk about the truth segment.  Dennett pointed out the various citizen science (although he didn't use the term citizen science) projects going on, in which random people voluntarily collect or analyze data, such as for bird watching and galaxy classification and report that to central repositories.  But certain other data collection activities have gone down--the mundane types of things such as goings-on in a town.  Town newspapers are dying, and nobody is there to take notes in local affairs (such as education, politics, etc.).  And this lost data might be important, because it is oversight.  

    The Internet has democratized evidence gathering while also promoting the abuse of misinformation.  So, Dennett proposes, some organizations could start projects as preservers of truth--or perhaps a church replacement could convert lovers of God into lovers of truth.  But it wouldn't be unconditional love of truth.  The privacy of your own thoughts, for instance, may contain truthful information, but it doesn't necessarily have to become public.  A scientific (in a broad sense of the word) organization that loves truth would compete with religion's typically "imperfect" handling of truth. 

    A serious project of truth preservation could become a sort of Super Snopes.  Snopes is the famous website which debunks and/or proves true various urban legends and the like.  When you get one of those emails such as certain bananas will eat your flesh, check it out on Snopes first before continuing the hoax chain.  Dennett doesn't define Super Snopes in detail, just that this is a kind of project that would be like Snopes or Wikipedia on an even more massive scale.  And there could be similar or overlapping projects that operate on local scales--perhaps reinstating the town/neighborhood oversight that is now missing.

    Of course, something this vague has a chance of happening in the future.  But how it happens could be, as usual, an imperfect evolution from what we have now.  Hopefully secular groups, as Dennett makes the call for, will try to architect and create these projects as soon as possible.

    I speculate that the projects that end up working in the future as far as truth preservation will make use of software agents (autonomous programs).  For instance, if people are not interested in taking notes on every little issue in your town/city, especially the mundane ones, then a computer can do that.

    Of course, one person's boring task is another's hobby.  Some people enjoy collecting the data that they contribute to a central database.  But some will be able to use software agents to act as their minions--the citizen truth gatherer becomes a node, in which they are a small local central repository, which then sends data to the next biggest node, and so on.

    The truth needs to be available to people whenever they want.  So the other major part of the technical aspect will be the interfaces and filters that allow humans to digest information, and to choose what streams to digest.  Of course, various web technologies have been increasing this capability (of filtering and choosing streams) for the entire life of the Internet.

    Here is my question: could a (or perhaps several) Super Snopes ever evolve beyond truth preservation into actual civilization preservation, for instance like Asimov's fictional Foundations?

    Comments

    vongehr
    "could a (or perhaps several) Super Snopes ever evolve beyond truth preservation into actual civilization preservation"

    I think that we should be careful what we are wishing for. Religion provides the tribal life style we evolved for (local communities/churches), numbing of nagging questions (about essential absurdity, fundamental uncertainty about what the world is ontologically, and so on), safety in a hierarchy (you know your place, have people you can kick with impunity), and definitively an enemy (the bad) is always provided.

    Humans unite in front of an enemy or they fast construct a new enemy. The pseudo-science bashing that is going on in skeptics circles is replacing religion well, the enemy is there, but if we do again not ensure safety valves, then who is to say that the science-religion is not going to go worse and worse down some new version of the old path to tyranny? Jesus probably started out well intending, but the churches that came after those beginnings are hierarchies of humans with their evolutionary pressures, and it goes bad - no surprise. Now you add cyberspace and non-human actors that care even less about humans, evolving superstructures that may care as much for us as our body cares for our skin cells (those killed every seven days or so) and gut bacteria. What is going to evolve?

    Dan Dennett is without a doubt one of the best, one of the very rare people officially in philosophy yet making sense. I am 95% on his side on all his other topics, too. However, we want to be careful about what we construct. I fear that the Super Snopes may well evolve (and I applaud your using this language; this is about evolution and not about conspiracies) into the darkest dark ages ever. As I have written before:
    The dark you may try to illuminate, but gleaming light blinds irreparably.
    Hank
    His slide in the graphic touches on a key point - the value of a liturgical society throughout history has far outweighed the examples where it went bad so replacing that is essential.  Atheist groups are tough to be around because they tend to be rather negative - many exist to debunk religion as opposed to doing something positive.

    The people who put boots on the ground when disasters that don't make the front pages occur, or who go into prisons, etc. are religious groups so if atheists want to replace that, as he says in his slide, he is on the right path.  Atheists need to do things instead of talking all of the time about how religion is wrong.
    Athiests do things. They just do them under a banner of something they believe in.
    Atheism is not an alternate religion, so it doesn't fill that role.

    Also, while you might have a sort of plausible argument for nowadays, I don't think history really supports your claims for the benefits of "liturgical society throughout history".

    Dear Sam:

    Since you referred to me by my legal name, I thought I'd comment briefly.

    My legal name is, in fact, Santa Claus. I'm a Christian Monk and Bishop, as St. Nicholas was many centuries ago. I serve as a full-time volunteer child advocate for millions of children who are abused, neglected, exploited, abandoned, homeless, and institutionalize through no fault of their own.

    As clergy, I believe that Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ, not the crass, commercial, secular spectacle it has become in many places and that the greatest gift one can give is love, not presents.

    After reading your article, I'm wondering exactly how Daniel plans to address the subject of Santa Claus on Super Snopes.

    Blessings to all, Santa Claus

    SynapticNulship
    Great job! (and I mean that in a Tim&Eric way).

    As clergy, I believe that Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ, not the crass, commercial, secular spectacle it has become in many places and that the greatest gift one can give is love, not presents.

    As a viking pirate ninja, I believe that Christmas is the week long Saturnalia festival of lawlessness where despoiling and destruction go unpunished, not the law-abiding weak-kneed religious set of ceremonies it has become.
    Dear Sam:

    You wrote, "As a viking pirate ninja, I believe that Christmas is the week long Saturnalia festival of lawlessness where despoiling and destruction go unpunished, not the law-abiding weak-kneed religious set of ceremonies it has become."

    Ah, and, instead, I thought you were: "Lead sw engineer @ iRobot, atheist technoprogressive transhumanist, into AI and IxD."

    Blessings to all, Santa :-)}

    Santa, why can the gift of love not be given every day, instead of just at Christmastime?

    Hi, Brian:

    I agree with you that the gift of love should be shared each and every day.

    Blessings, Santa :-)}

    I think that churches providing gathering, communitiy identity, ritual and emotional engagement is a first level atttraction - and there's many other ways to get those through work or volunteering if one is so inclined.

    What religion offers that nothing else does, is giving a person a sense of being important in a universe where they are not.

    Even science fiction stories contain that - aliens impressed by some human emotional capacity that isn't particularly impressive and there's no reason to think that an intelligent alien species would not be able to love, experience joy or be curious.

    it's not that churches give people direction and short term purpose - but believers think it gives meaning to the joy and sorrows that happen to them - the comforting thought that someone bigger and more powerful is looking out for you

    so anything human is going to have a hard time competeing with that

    I think it's going to take awhile for the critical social mass to occur that we can put aside the childish beleif that is religion.

    SynapticNulship
    it's not that churches give people direction and short term purpose -
    but believers think it gives meaning to the joy and sorrows that happen
    to them - the comforting thought that someone bigger and more powerful
    is looking out for you

    Your are right partially...but you're trying to nudge it completely to emotions.  I think my next post will address some of the emotions with religion confusion.  We have to be more specific and realize different people have different usages for religion and/or religious organizations.  One of the examples of Dennett provided was that churches provide a supplement for a family for loners who have been cast away, e.g. the open doors of the church will take you in (within limitations of course) if nobody else will.  The aspect of family here is the concept that "if you go there, they have to let you in."  Anyway, my point is that not all people use religion or mysticism for the exact same reason or mixture of reasons. 

    I think society can become more advanced (and already has a little bit) in contextual needs.  For instance, do we really need to be consoled all the time by a mythical father figure in the sky?  Or do we only need to be consoled once in a while?  Do we need to pretend there's a heaven all the time, or do we need the heaven concept just to console children (and maybe some adults) temporarily when somebody close dies?


    Gerhard Adam
    Perhaps the concept of "family" is certainly part of it, but it strikes me that what attracts humans is the echo of a tribal lifestyle that we've lost sight of.

    Everything that people claim they need regarding the "sense of belonging" to a "sense of worth", including the notion of family are all intrinsic elements of the human experience throughout our evolution until the rise of the city/state.  It is no coincidence that churches capitalize on local involvement rather than exploiting their true numbers.  Even though people may recognize that they belong to a larger "religion", few think beyond the local church they attend.  As a result, the church becomes a proxy-tribe to which they belong.

    It could also be argued that most churches don't actually deal with religion as their primary focus when it comes to its members.  While there may certainly be enthusiastic participants, it rarely places a stringent requirement on those that would participate.

    There is nothing stronger than an individual's beliefs, and equally there is nothing quite so binding as a social group that is joined by the idea of sharing beliefs.  Whether it be religious, political, or whatever, it is the unity of thought that creates that "tribal" sense of belonging.  The failure in modern society is that we've attempted to extend such ideas well beyond the ability for humans to relate.  It's hard to feel close with millions of members, so people become disillusioned and lose their sense of belonging.
    The truth needs to be available to people whenever they want.  So
    the other major part of the technical aspect will be the interfaces and
    filters that allow humans to digest information,...
    There are two problems with this statement.  The first is that people aren't nearly as interested in the truth as we often imagine.  More often than not, they're interested in finding support for their existing beliefs.  In the second, we find that given the choice, people will inundate themselves with information that echos what they already choose to believe and supports their desired objectives.  It is a rare individual that can shake off that pressure and truly attempt an objective exploration of data.  In fact, I would suggest that it is virtually impossible (except perhaps in the sciences) since invariably ALL the available data will be imperfect and impossible to verify.
    SynapticNulship
    There are two problems with this statement.  The first is that people aren't nearly as interested in the truth as we often imagine.  More often than not, they're interested in finding support for their existing beliefs.  In the second, we find that given the choice, people will inundate themselves with information that echos what they already choose to believe and supports their desired objectives.  It is a rare individual that can shake off that pressure and truly attempt an objective exploration of data.
    I agree. I was trying to point out (perhaps prematurely) that the interfaces--be they technical and/or social--are critical.  Most people overlook the role of interfaces when speculating.  Getting people to care about truth--and of which topics--is another matter.  And it may turn out not to be a main issue.

    In fact, I would suggest that it is virtually impossible (except perhaps in the sciences) since invariably ALL the available data will be imperfect and impossible to verify.
    Software and interfaces could help with that.  A related issue is trust--how can anybody trust random blogger reporters or random citizen scientists?  How can we trust big name journalists?   How can we trust information or data from any human or bot?  How can we machete through the obfuscated jungle of politics?  How can anybody have time to research all things that are important?  Perhaps technology could help with these problems.  Perhaps we just need to get to a certain level of trust and/or reliability and/or politics--never perfect, but good enough (and better than today).
    Aitch
    Sam
    Unless at an interface level, there is a touching of the heart and soul of a person, there will be no 'actual civilization preservation' as posed in your original final question
    It does not matter whether that interface is human, software/AI/digital, or alien, trust comes when knowingness returns from within

    It has to touch people where nothing else does, to awaken those long forgotten yearnings for 'that something better', to strip away the illusions, the fantasies and false images, and rekindle that feeling of belonging, not just to a group consciousness, but to oneself, to awaken the inner being so few recall, and to make the heart pound with what has become sadly called love, but has lost the core feeling, separated by the distance between head and heart, and disconnected associatively from the feeling stored in the belly by the cutting of the umbilical
    We wrestle with who and what we are, yet spend lifetimes looking elsewhere for the 'meaning and origins of life' and look to experts to solve our woes

    What interface will 'cure such ills' other than the journey 'home'?
    The trick of essence is 'In the beginning'

    Aitch
    SynapticNulship
    It has to touch people where nothing else does
    That can be arranged.
    blue-green


    Normal
    0


    I live outside a small isolated town of just a few hundred people. No chain stores, no chain restaurants. Been there for the last 30 years. A few days ago, our longest running past mayor (20 years of service) died.  I’ve been wondering about his memorial service. Lots of tribal elements to consider in this here post.

    This mayor ran the most active bar in town. This was back when smoking was permitted (in the bar). I didn’t drink there hardly at all. I’m just mentioning it as a reminder that pubs and bars have been places to meet and sort things out. Nowadays, the DUI (Driving Under the Influence) penalties are so large and threatening, that even with smoking not permitted, I am leery of having more than one drink at a bar (or restaurant). That doesn’t leave much time for socializing.

    Before my generation, people (young and old) in this remote area would meet every Saturday night for a dance or just to be there. That doesn’t happen anymore.

    The school system used to be a unifying place to meet and sort out the truth. My community is too small to support several schools, and yet, in the name of progress and personal choice we got charter schools and home schooling. Those two options have drained away so many students that our one an only local school is being warned that it will have to shut down. It’s just an elementary school. Consolidation put our middle and high schoolers on the bus long ago.

    These are the trends that I have been seeing. People drink at home and watch TV … or go on the Internet like I’m doing here.

    In the big cities in the Bible Belt, I hear that the churches are now entertainment palaces.

    There will always be the need for memorial services and ways to cope with tragic events. There is a need for communal ways of sharing and rejoicing over happy events too, perennial things like weddings, coming-of-age and births.
    rychardemanne
    Have to agree with Gerhard on this; from what we know so far about the mind's reality algorithm most people seem to function better with a false but coherent picture rather than a true but fragmentary one. I find this deeply depressing... but that's my problem!

    To attempt to create an ersatz religion by aping the propagandist elements of established religions looks like a million steps backwards. And btw, totalitarian communism tried that and failed. Great idea Santa Daniel. May I suggest reading on Buddhism and Taoism as nontheistic paths to a reality algorithm.

    What we need is a much deeper understanding of that state of mind we commonly call faith, as well as its opposite, faithlessness. Now that would be a giant leap of... understanding.
    Atheists are soooo tedious...and as someone pointed out in a previous post, they are most often humorless and strident in their negativity.

    Recent studies have shown that we are hardwired for religious faith (if that's true, maybe Dennett and his kind are low-level retards and defectives...lol. That aside, if we ARE so hardwired, maybe Dennett and his ilk should ask "WHY?"

    Dennet can lie in the ground and rot if he wishes...as Wordsworth put it in his "Lucy" poem:

    "No motion has she now, no force..she neither hears nor sees...rolled 'round in Earths diurnal course...with rocks and stones and trees"

    Me? I have other plans. The atheist Haldane once said a wise thing; "the universe is not only queerer than we imagine, it is queerer than we CAN imagine." It's my belief an omnipotent God made it that way.

    "The fool hath said in his heart 'there is no God'"

    poetic truth != objective truth. Sorry, but them's the facts.

    Pretty sure that Mr. Dennet and others have asked why, but anyway, It's pretty easy to notice that religions create cohesive groups that band together in support, encourages reproduction, and defends against outsiders. That's evolutionary fitness right there. I wonder if there's any evidence for it. We should collect some. But either way, it doesn't make any of the various mythos true. Frankly, the human mind believes all sorts of bogus junk.

    As for negativity, you're the one wishing Mr Dennet to rot in his grave (which happily he has yet to reach), and calling him a retard and defective. A different wise man once wrote: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

    SynapticNulship
    Atheists are soooo tedious...and as someone pointed out in a previous post, they are most often humorless and strident in their negativity.

    On the contrary, one might say atheists have the best humors, especially on matters of religion.

    Of course, some atheists are negative, but they do have a lot to be angry about.  Anyway, that was one of Dennett's themes--to encourage positive projects instead of negativity.

    I am not wishing for Mr. Dennett to rot in his grave...in fact, I wish him the eternal peace and immortality that Christianity explicitly promises and other major religions at least suggest...

    And you didn't deal with the "why hardwired?" question at all...

    http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/4_28/pages/hardwired.html

    It's also interesting that none other than Roger Penrose has suggested he has found some physical justification for the4 existence of that odd thing called a soul...

    Hank
    What is there to deal with?  It's an article about a book publisher and a guy who takes MRIs of brains hoping to find a connection between a physical effect and religious belief.
    Newberg's day job is radiology. Three days a week, he takes pictures of kidneys, lungs and hearts, looking for signs of disease. Two days a week, when he has willing subjects, he takes pictures of the brains of deeply religious people, looking for signs of God.
    and prior to that
    Both men believe the connection between the brain and spirituality suggests there is a physiological basis for religion--that human beings, in essence, are hard-wired for God.
    That's part of the problem.  Belief is enough for religious people and that's fine but belief is nothing in science.    It's darn ironic that Religious News Service, which should be interested in the tenets of faith, instead is seeking to make religion empirical and therefore solely a biological experience.   

    Hard-wired brains are the 19th century scourge of religion, if you know your history.   That was the Age of Determinism and that article, and people who buy into it, seek to resurrect that.   If brains are hardwired for religion, they are also hardwired for people to be pedophiles, serial killers and and either likable or unlikable.    No need for a Bible or churches if it's all determined by our brains because there is no morality.
    SynapticNulship
    Gerry, I would like to delete your comment, although it is slightly relevant to discuss the "hardwiring" as you say of the brain for faith.   It is quite plausible that humans brains, which are kludges, are inclined to all sorts of erroneous beliefs and tendencies.  In fact, it's quite possible that humans don't have any viridical experience.  I haven't read it yet, but Dennett probably covers some of that in his book Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon

    Of course, neuroscience can investigate why brains evolved and why people have hallucinations or experiences which are described by some as spiritual.  But I fail to see how neuroscience can make the inference that a biological part is somehow an interface with the  "reality of god"--at that point, Rhawn Joseph has gone off the deep end.  Descartes said something similar about dualism--that the pineal gland is the interface to another type of stuff.   A few hundred years of world-changing science has happened since then.  It turns out he was wrong.   What is that other stuff, what is the Reality of God?  Obviously you don't care, because once you hear that you start posting the meme everywhere because you think it supports your religious beliefs.

    BTW, Rhawn Joseph is a notorious psuedoscientist, self publisher, avoider of peer review, and harasser of people who disagree with him.
    What is "pseudoscience" isw constantly changing...Troy was considered pseudoscience until Heinrich Schliemann came along...often yesterday's pseudoscience becomes today's cherished scientific dogma...

    So you cling to your frosty pretensions of grandeur, the egomaniacal assumption that the only meaning the cosmos possesses is what you can impose upon it with your three pounds of grey matter.

    So when you die, you'll be all dressed up with no place to go, as the old saying says...while I'll be heading for pleasanter places...ta ta...

    Gerhard Adam
    So when you die, you'll be all dressed up with no place to go, as the old saying says...while I'll be heading for pleasanter places...ta ta...
    Hmmm ... with such a wonderful Christian attitude, are you quite sure you'll be heading for "pleasanter" places?

    Also, it might be worth your while to look up what pseudoscience actually is.
    SynapticNulship
    So when you die, you'll be all dressed up with no place to go, as the old saying says...while I'll be heading for pleasanter places...ta ta...
    Enjoy.  But before that, maybe you can help us make the world right now a pleasanter place. 
    rychardemanne
    Rather laughable how Christians feel the need to chant their mantra of "we are wired for belief." If that were in any way true then the consequence is that any belief will do and that we are thereby doomed to an inescapable delusion. I think it a manifestation of hubris to jump to the conclusion that the brain is wired for a Christian belief. Because Christian doctrine clings to faith as the main support of its doctrines it must seek to legitimize faith (read Aquinas). Not all religions take this view of the importance of faith.

    However, what seems more likely is that religions have hijacked the brain's method for mapping reality. Sam Harris's experiments point to the brain being wired for all sorts of beliefs, be they mathematical, scientific, social, political and, yes, even religious. The joy at finding truths (in the plural) appears to be very similar, if not identical, whatever the domain.

    But this is precisely where a scientific and rational approach is indispensable in iterating towards verifiable truths and away from unverifiable ones. This, however, cannot stop the straw men holding each other up by their false beliefs.

    http://www.science20.com/florilegium/blog/born_believe_%E2%80%93_review_...

    http://www.science20.com/florilegium/science_belief_religion_science_rec...

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