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Quantum Crackpot Counter Challenge: “Explain Quantum Weirdness”.
By Anonymous | June 14th 2011 10:33 AM | 33 comments | 2307 reads | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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For discussion we’ll take an EPR pair as two spin 1/2 particles anti-correlated in a singlet state at the source.

·       How does an EPR pair maintain conservation of total angular momentum over space-like separations? That is, if Alice’s spin is flipped, how does Bob’s spin flop?

or

·       Using physical logic, explain non-locality as suggestedby Bell’s Theorem.

or

·       What are “quantum channels”?

Since to date, no one has been able to explain the above within quantum theory, the conclusion must be that quantum mechanics is incomplete.

The phase “quantum weirdness” is recognized as meaningless and has no place in science.

Another part of the challenge is to complete quantum theory with no weirdness and which agrees with all the experimental data.

In many ways this site is the antithesis of the blog:

Quantum Crackpot RandiChallenge: Help Perimeter Physicist Joy Christian To Collect The Nobel Prize

Their challenge is

“Anybodywith some crackpot “local QM” theory is cordially invited to either write theprogram (as described in the emails) so that Bell’s inequality is violated or to shut the hell up (precisely like thetraditional Randi Challenge)! And we want to see no other angles but those three where quantumphysics maximally violates Bell’s inequality. We have no interest whatsoever in allthe other amazing stuff that you claim you can do with it. Either simulate thequantum behavior in that simple experiment at the three angles including Pi/8or don’t waste our time! If you are successful, fame is yours.”

 

 

Comments

There is a site dedicated to listing programs that can be used to test various simulations of the statistical EPR data:
http://challengingbell.blogspot.com/2011/02/clallenging-bell-with-local-realistic.html
"Since to date, no one has been able to explain the above within quantum theory, the conclusion must be that quantum mechanics is incomplete."

Actually, the more reasonable conclusion is that you're a crackpot whose philosophical prejudices hamper your ability for rational thought.

QM successfully predicts the outcome of every single experiment, period. It is therefore complete.

You say: "QM successfully predicts the outcome of every single experiment, period. It is therefore complete."

Can you please explain why filter settings of 45 degrees give maximum violation of the CHSH form of Bell's Inequalities?
han geurdes
hi, sure he is a crackpot, please read his papers first before making comments. it is not about the effectiveness of qm as a theory. it is about its foundation. now you may have a low regard of alternatives to what you find in textbooks. but that only proves you are someone that believes in truth of your textbook. ok fine. now can you come with real points against this critical view on foundations?
han geurdes
Perhaps it is interesting to add the following points to this discussion: Most of the time people defend the completeness of quantum foundations by quoting Bell's Theorem tested in experiments of Weihs and Aspect. Now why is it so that when a person seriously tries to question the validity of this 'Theorem' and the interpretation of the experiments that person is either called a crackpot or people start shouting at that person? It must be an embarrasing lack of proper argumentation. There appears no other reason to be found for (sociopathic) behavior of this kind. If science is Big Business then perhaps a somewhat business-like attitude could do no harm. In CHSH and Local Hidden Causality Adv. Studies in Theor. Phys. 4(2) 495-499 (2010) I challenge the correctness of Bell's derivation. You can read the paper on http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2010/astp17-20-2010/geurdesASTP17-20-20.... In order to provide some further background to the discussion I claim that Bell's expression contains a mathematical ambiguity. Take a look at the measurement functions A and B. They project in {-1,1}. Now I can model A and B with sgn(x-y) or with (x-y)/|x-y| like mathematical functions. They may look identical but they are not! For instance take the first derivative of sgn(x-y) to x and find d sgn(x-y)/dx = 2δ(x- y). Now do the same thing for (x-y)/|x-y|. In the evaluation of d/dx of |x-y| in the partial differentiation of (x-y)/|x-y| to x make use of the following expression |x-y| = (x-y)sgn(x-y). Then you may see: d/dx of (x-y)/|x-y| results in -2δ(x- y). This is problematic for Bell's expression because partial integration may introduce these differentiations in the evaluation. Please, do not try to escape with 'this is mistery math' because it isn't and if you really think it is then Bell's expression itself belongs to the mistery math domain. If not then arguments please, no shouting party or unfounded arrogance. I will skip the childish attack on Joy Christian's personal integrity. This behavior started the counter movement but I argued against giving too much attention to a childish silly act of lack of reasoning and a US-election like questioning the integrity of a persons scientific activities. I leave that to the Republicans and Democrats of the US to come with perfect slander campaigns against each others candidates. Instead I invite the, in my view, schoolboy behavior, of the Randi Challenge to come with a proper discussion with a friendly and thoughtfull exchange of argumentation. Only in this tradition of scientific practice a possible view on progress can be found. If not then science is as much the disease of our present day problems as its aim to being the cure.
Halliday
Han:

As for the sgn(x-y) vs. (x-y)/|x-y| issue:
  1. While sgn(x-y) is well defined at x = y, (x-y)/|x-y| is not, necessarily, quite so well defined ((x-y)/|x-y| can be defined such that it is identical with sgn(x-y), or it can be defined such that they differ at x = y).
  2. Your particular choice, in the (x-y)/|x-y| case, is telling:  First, if one were to replace |x-y| with (x-y)sgn(x-y) in the first place, one replaces (x-y)/|x-y| with 1/sgn(x-y), which most certainly does not have a derivative of -2δ(x- y).  Second, your description of "how" to take the derivative of (x-y)/|x-y| is rather telling:  You state that the substitution should (only?) be applied "In the evaluation of d/dx of |x-y|".  With such a misapplication of mathematics it is no wonder at all that you arrive at your errant result.
  3. Besides, whatever form one arrives at for the derivative of a function, it must be such that the corresponding integral (anti-derivative) returns the original function with only a constant difference.  Otherwise, one has not properly obtained the derivative.  (Your claimed derivative of (x-y)/|x-y| fails this test miserably:  Instead of obtaining an upward step, you have a downward step.)

So, I see no "there" there in your arguments, only empty "mystery mathematics" that is "mathematics" in name only.  (It reminds me of "proofs" that 1 = 2.  :)  )

David
han geurdes
And while the Randi Challenge anti-crackpotters are fighting about who will be the first to get his ass kicked, I happily refer to the following published papers: J.F. Geurdes, Wigner's variant of Bell's inequality, Austr. J. Phys. 51, 835-842, (1998). and e.g. J.F. Geurdes, Bell inequalities and pseudo-functional densities, Int J. Theor. Phys, Grp. Theor. & Nonl. Optics, 7(3), 51, (2001). J.F. Geurdes, Bell's theorem refuted with a Kolmogorovian counterexample, Int. J. Theor. Phys., Grp. Theor. & Nonl. Optics 12(3), 215-228, (2008). So I enter somewhat prepared. And please not that childish... the journals mean nothing or are very low in regard or whatever excuse you may find to save face. As if your Randi Challenge idea is such a elegant and top class claim.
Halliday
Han:

Thanks for the references.  :)

Unfortunately, it will be a while before I'll have the time to read them, but thanks anyway.

David
ujm
if Alice’s spin is flipped, how does Bob’s spin flop?
  • Alice's spin doesn't flip and Bob's doesn't flop. If Alice's and Bob's spins are measured (with respect to the same axis), then the outcomes are anti-correlated (supposing an initial singlet state).
  • Weirdness is in the eye of the beholder.
Your first point:  as I asked above, why then are the angles for a spin 1/2 that maximize CHSH-BI at 45 degrees?  What about the 60 degrees that maximize the violation of Bell's original form?  Why are those values special?  Quantum mechanics fails to explain these settings.
You second point is a non sequitur: I do not use the word Weirdness to describe a physical process, but many who believe quantum theory is complete use it as a catch-all for what is not understood.


A search on Google gives 1,700,000 hits on quantum weirdness:  it is used in articles in Nature (G. Weihs for example) and has moved into mainstream physics. 

All I am asking you is to tell me what it means, not another statement that avoids the question.
ujm
All I am saying is that if you start with a sloppy (if not false) statement, displaying your unfamiliarity with the intricacy of the problem, you discourage people from giving a well thought out answer. For the second point, see below.
By sloppy I infer you mean "quantum weirdness", so  I agree with you.  Since it is used to cover up the failure of quantum theory to explain EPR data, I do not expect anyone to be able to explain it.
It is easy to say someone is unfamiliar with the problem, but you do not say how.  However I do not believe anyone will answer my challenge within quantum theory.  So for my other questions: cons. of ang. mom. ; quantum channels, non-locality, what intricacy is missing?



ujm
Deleting inconvenient responses, eh?
han geurdes
Indeed, but mr Mohrhoff I think the question was: can this be explained in some other way than non-locality ? Or even, can this be explained. It is a paradox originally designed for showing the incompleteness of quantum mechanics. We all know the EPR paper by heart I think. Now I do not want to be a nuisance but your second point is anti-scientific. Or better perhaps anti asking questions. Ok, it is easy to quible one's head off on this type of networks but if your intention is serious than act a bit more serious. Seriousness is in the ey of the beholder. Stupidity too and being flippant is also in the eye of the beholder. Man even the cows end can be in the eye of the beholder so what is your point -if any-?
ujm
Point is: change your way of thinking, based on familiarity, and the weirdness disappears. If the quantum domain is to explain what happens or is the case in the macroworld, then it had better not behave the same as the macroworld, otherwise the explanation would be circular. Hence the unfamiliarity, hence the weirdness.
So you say there is no quantum weirdness.  Well in 2003 I think it was, I had lunch with N. Gisin in Geneva and he said, in answer to my question: 
"We are in a realm of physics which is beyond human comprehension."

So are you disagreeing with Gisin?  

ujm
"We are in a realm of physics which is beyond human comprehension."
Depends on what you mean by human comprehension. If we are dealing with a truly fundamental theory, then we can't comprehend it in terms of a more fundamental theory, since fundamental (like pregnant) doesn't have a comparative. A theory is either fundamental or it is not. What gave us the illusion that classical physics was comprehensible was that it let us (sort of) get away with transmogrifying its calculational tools into physical mechanisms or natural processes. (Too bad that it predicted that atoms would collapse, and that you would be blinded by ultraviolet light if you looked at the burner of your stove.) Since we now know how, in the classical limit, quantum mechanics degenerates into classical physics, we can see that the reification of mathematical symbols or expressions has never been more than a sleight-of-hand -- the fallacy of misplaced concreteness, as Whitehead called it.
I do not think we need an epistemological discussion here.  The simply truth is Gisin's honest statement was a response to the same questions I ask here in the challenge. 
Can you answer those question with human logic (science) or must you invoke quantum weirdness (faith)?  



han geurdes
You are right there mr Mohrhoff. Perception and its labeling go together. But in this case we could try (mind you) to make a point about the idea that wave-particle dualism, tunneling etc could be caused by the possibility (sic) that the experimenter did not control every aspect of the experiment. How can an experimenter be sure that he or she controls every relevant aspect of the experiment? That was the reason Einstein argued for the incompleteness of quantum theory. Perhaps ´we´ missed something that could explain. Then it is the question if quantum theory is a statistical theory (Borns interpretation already being statistical) or a theory of principle. Looking at the nonlocality explanation one can wonder what ´theory of principle´ means in that case.
ujm
Han, I have responded to a very similar comment here.

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han geurdes
ulrich your view on measurement is consistent with the usual view a and that is ok in itself. however it is a view not by necessity a truth. if s provide the necessary independent steps of it.
Hank
We need to call a moratorium on cranks signing up specifically to create articles to contradict Sascha.   You now have biologists, IT people and who knows what else all signing up to write the same stuff - no actual physicists.

It isn't science, and it isn't a benefit to a science community, to exploit our open nature by stuffing in opinions that agree with yours.  If Joy Christian doesn't like what Sascha wrote, he can sign up and defend himself.    You writing about it is equivalent to me dancing about architecture.
Hello Hank.
I don't know if that's a comment to my post, because I don't know any Sascha.
Is it?
Georges Metanomski

han geurdes
hank, i think you are right. i would love a discussion with david and read georges intuitive paper but this is too time consuming. i want to think for a while. 
e.g. sgn is also ill defined at x is zero.  this is because the heaviside is ill defined iin that point. but we will need another place for discussing that. 
han geurdes
hank i hink it wrong call people cranck and also allow character assasinations on physicists. 
Hank
People have freedom of speech - what I discourage is rigging the results by having a lot of friends sign up, who share the same beliefs, to go after a contributor here.    If Joy wants to respond that is fine, but artificially creating some sort of consensus is not legitimate.
I do not know where you get your information, because all I did was tweet and twitter a bit about this blog and put it on Facebook.  If you look at my friends list I have three, which hardly sees a lot.
My goal is honest: simply to allow people to communicate in an atmosphere of respect and collegiality in order to seek insight and answers to the most intriguing questions about the foundations of quantum mechanics.

I will comment about Joy Christian at a later date. 

han geurdes
bryan,
i agree. we do not want to go after a contributer. again  hank, you allowed the blog about joy and are at the same time complaining about alleged friends that go after a contributer of your list. anyway which you turn it, you called contributers crancks, you allowed character assasinations, etc. this is not a matter about the freedom to be laughed at. please do see the inconsistency in your moderative interference.

either arguments are exchanged and seriously considered or accept that your list degenerates to a shouting party and a discussion for the deaf. to me it appears to tend to the latter and your protection of contributers is biasedfrom the very start. how would you respond being called a cranck? mr metanomsky is i think a respected analytical philosopher.
Hank
The distinction is that Sascha did not sign up to attack Christian - he is not a zealot in a personality war on one person.   If the only reason for a new person to write here and recruit other people is to dispute a physicist writing about another physicist - and the people signing up now are not physicists - then it is wrong.

Obviously on the Internet people can just go to Blogger or Wordpress and create a "Sascha Sucks - We Heart Joy Christian" column and they may even get Sascha and Christian to read it.   It just isn't science so doesn't belong here.    Science 2.0 is not a resource for new people to cynically exploit for their cultural agenda.
If the truth of the matter were known, I suspect that Sascha hoped to get his next post doc with Joy and started his email correspondence with that goal in mind.
I never mentioned China in my comment, but since you brought it up, I am an honorary professor at the East China Institute of Technology in Nanjing and Chinese is my second language.

I like Gisin's honest answer. I think it is a very good answer in a deep sense: our primate brains have evolved to believe that there are no effects without causes. Everything has a reason for happening. However, Bell teaches us *either* that nature is weirdly non-local (the non-locality is hidden; it does not allow us to send messages or in any other way achieve action at a distance) *or* that it is intrinsically stochastic. There is irreducible randomness built in at the bottom level, so to speak.

Incidentally, Han Geurdes recently accepted a personal challenge by me to write the computer programs to win the Quantum Crackpot Randi challenge. However his progress writing those programs seems to have slowed down in recent weeks. His mathematics is unconventional and inconsistent and follows rules only known to himself. Any criticism of the mathematics is taken as personal criticism; rational discussion is impossible.

I have tried a number of times to make sense of what Brian Sanctuary is doing, but rather like Joy Christian he uses a lot of physics jargon which sounds impressive, but does not correspond to solid mathematics. I hope Brian will take up the Quantum Crackpot Randi challenge. He offers the challenge "explain quantum weirdness". Yet he claims that he already solved this challenge with his own approach. Unfortunately, as far as I know, he has not been able to "sell" his explanation to anyone else.

If only his approach would allow a local realistic computer simulation of the singlet correlations, then it would be clear not only that he has really understands things that nobody else understands, but also that Bell was wrong. However we haven't seen those computer programs yet.

Speaking of things that don't belong in a science blog:

The "Randi challenge" continues to be the singular indicator among Joy's critics that they absolutely do not comprehend the difference between decohering measures of quantum probability, and classical randomness. The former refers to the information boundary that attends the time-dependent transfer of information from one point to another; the latter refers to random motion within time reversible classical processes. Taking the example of Kepler's second law ("equal areas in equal times") we find that a classical process such as planetary orbital motion is deterministic, because we can reverse the trajectory without violating any physical laws. This applies to the whole universe up to the cosmological Planck time. The trajectory of a quantum mechanical process cannot be reversed; its lowest energy state is discontinuous with the next higher state and reversal would violate the second law of thermodynamics.

Because thermodynamics and its classical analog, statistical mechanics, are probabilistic, a reverse-trajectory quantum psychic guessing game is OF COURSE no better than 50% because that probabilistic measure is the classical limit of trajectory reversal!

The classical process recovers symmetry between time and information transfer proportional to the curvature -- equal areas in equal times -- in the linear sense and generalized to a gradient on Joy's manifold (parallelized S^3) where the Riemann curvature is zero.

The "Randi challenge" is thus simply inane. No -- actually, it's just stupid, with no connection to science whatsoever.

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