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    PETA Declares War On The US Army Over Goats
    By Hank Campbell | August 6th 2012 06:00 PM | 9 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Hank

    I'm the founder of Science 2.0® and co-author of "Science Left Behind".

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    PETA, People for The Ethical Treatment of Animals, doesn't always make sense.  They protest objectifying dead fish, for example, by objectifying live women.  Actually, they show more naked women than Playboy, their marketing campaigns are littered with exploited females.(1)

    Now they are critical of the US Army, but not for hurting fellow humans. Rather, for hurting goats.

    War is messy, brutal business.  In a perfect world, there would be none.  But things happen, even if for different reasons.  In Iraq, for example, war was unjustified neo-con imperialism (because Democrats had a Republican president) but is necessary wholesome support of freedom-loving protesters to support democracy now, when Democrats have a Democrat president. In all cases it involves blood and death.  That means medics have to undergo battlefield trauma training before they arrive.


    PETA's never-ending campaign to use naked women as part of politics.

    You can train in a simulator, of course, just like you can train on anything, but it is a far cry from the real thing, despite what Oliver Stone thinks because he was in Viet Nam. Before the real thing happens, you have to get as close as possible and so infantry soldiers have live-fire exercises.  Medical personnel have their own ways. Army medics with the 14th Combat Support Hospital participated in Brigade Combat Team Trauma Training at Ft. Benning, Georgia on July 16th-20th and they worked on goats, actual people not being available.

    PETA was not concerned that the animals were not treated ethically - the 'E' in their name - they instead claimed they were mistreated and "participants hacked off live goats' limbs with hatchets and tree trimmers and cut the animals apart with deer-skinning knives. According to the whistleblower, some goats were "screaming for their lives" during this ordeal—a clear indication that they were conscious and able to feel pain,” according to the anonymous (naturally) source.

    Army medics get tree trimmers as part of their kits?  I knew the military budget was generous but that seems excessive. Someone get fiscal hawk Senator Tom Coburn on the phone.  He is worried soldiers don't get enough bullets while money is wasted on Farmville studies so if it turns out medics are getting tree trimmers he is going to go through the roof.

    They issued a complaint to the U.S. Department of Agriculture and with Major General H. R. McMaster, commander of Fort Benning. What authority would the USDA have over the military?  Not sure what PETA was thinking there. The best way to annoy a general is to make him think you think the USDA can tell him what to do. They cited, as evidence it must be true, an incident from somewhere else, showing that they went to the Dan Rather school of journalism logic.

    Regardless, the Army takes this stuff seriously.  The Army Medical Department does not give a hoot about what a general at Ft. Benning thinks, they are their own command so they are not being intimidated by anyone.  They determined the anonymous source was making it up, there were veterinary personnel onsite to ensure the animals were treated humanely, under general anesthesia during the entire event, and that proper methods were used.

    It's not pleasant but nothing about food or war is. Live tissue training is an important part of battlefield trauma expertise and PETA may claim that animals deserve some special treatment but plants scream too.  So why PETA hates them and wants to see more of them die is as much of a puzzle as why they hate women.

    NOTE:

    (1) More naked hippies for your enjoyment.  If PETA objectifies women, so can you:

    Comments

    Gerhard Adam
    They determined the anonymous source was making it up, there were veterinary personnel onsite to ensure the animals were treated humanely, under general anesthesia during the entire event, and that proper methods were used.
    It is only common sense.  No one would learn much of anything if they had to contend with a struggling animal in pain.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Well the goats in this Youtube video of the same US trauma training exercise does show one of the goats groaning and struggling in pain. The video commentator is Academy award winning director and US Army veteran Oliver Stone.
    Make love not war
    Hank
    I referenced both Stone and that incident in the article, I guess you didn't read it.  I also mentioned Dan Rather as an analogy (obviously that is only going to be US-relative) - we can't convict people of running a stop sign with 'even if you did not do it here you probably were speeding some time in your life so you are guilty anyway' logic.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Of course I read it, so what if you referenced Stone and that incident? You also said :-
    PETA was not concerned that the animals were not treated ethically - the 'E' in their name - they instead claimed they were mistreated and "participants hacked off live goats' limbs with hatchets and tree trimmers and cut the animals apart with deer-skinning knives. According to the whistleblower, some goats were "screaming for their lives" during this ordeal—a clear indication that they were conscious and able to feel pain,” according to the anonymous (naturally) source.
    Army medics get tree trimmers as part of their kits?  I knew the military budget was generous but that seems excessive...They issued a complaint to the U.S. Department of Agriculture and with Major General H. R. McMaster, commander of Fort Benning...They determined the anonymous source was making it up, there were veterinary personnel onsite to ensure the animals were treated humanely, under general anesthesia during the entire event, and that proper methods were used.
    Gerhard said 'No one would learn much of anything if they had to contend with a struggling animal in pain.' but I don't understand his logic, do you? After all that's what soldiers would be doing if they were seriously injured on the battle field and that's what this goat was doing.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Not true.  First of all, goats don't have arms and legs and four struggling legs is not the same thing, nor do you learn anything from it.  Also, I don't know where you got the notion that soldiers injured in battle are necessarily struggling in the same fashion [especially when it comes to things like biting].

    Also, from my understanding, the Oliver Stone piece is NOT the U.S. Army.  I'm not clear on where it originated, but it was not based on anything occurring at Ft. Benning.
    The animals appear to be anesthetized in the video, which was purportedly shot in Virginia Beach, Va. In addition to the use of tree trimmers, instructors stab the animals with scalpels and pull out internal organs -- which a narrator and a PETA blog post say was done to simulate injuries. The blog post said that veterinarians who viewed the video said the animals' movements indicate that the goats may not have been adequately anesthetized. At one point, one of the men in video calls for more anesthesia.
    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/04/19/11286441-coast-guard-defends-medical-training-on-live-animals-after-peta-posts-gory-video?lite
    Let's be clear.  These animals are going to die, so the only real issue is whether they suffer because of the nature of this training.  All indications are that they are anesthetized and attempts are made to ensure that this is followed.

    I find that the video [and PETA] are a bit disingenuous by constantly referring to these goats as "alive" and thereby implying "conscious".  The issue of tree trimmers or stabbing with a scalpel are irrelevant, to an unconscious animal that is going to die.  Those are emotional elements that have nothing to do with the issue.

    Moreover, I don't believe that this training is for trivial things like applying tourniquets.  Instead, it is to provide live training to demonstrate the difficulties of dealing with some of these injuries, regardless of whether they are anatomically identical to human beings. 

    Also, it should be apparent that simulators are simulators.  No matter the hype, they are NOT the same thing as the real-life experience of something.

    Is it disturbing?  Yes, but then I would rather see people disturbed at the notion of going to war, which unfortunately they rarely are.  It is just as disturbing when men are training to use bayonets in close combat.  It is just as disturbing when one trains to remove booby-traps, probes for mines, and has to disarm anti-personnel mines.  It's all disturbing.

    However, it all exists because the majority of people still enjoy putting on a show of military might.  While we can certainly discuss the political dimensions of making such decisions, the simple reality is that these goats are suffering no worse fate that many soldiers will face for no better reason than patriotic bravado.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Not true.  First of all, goats don't have arms and legs and four struggling legs is not the same thing, nor do you learn anything from it. Also, I don't know where you got the notion that soldiers injured in battle are necessarily struggling in the same fashion [especially when it comes to things like biting]. 
    Who said anything about the animals biting? Surely it would be difficult for these animals to bite anyone when they are tied down and/or have had their faces blown away with guns? Anyway I agree with you, that moaning, struggling, mutilated goats also don't have arms or legs and its not the same thing as an injured soldier, so why do it? The article you linked to says :-
    "Learning how to apply a tourniquet on a severed goat's leg does not help prepare medical providers to treat an anatomically different human being wounded on the battlefield," Dr. Michael P. Murphy, an associate professor of surgery at Indiana University School of Medicine and a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army Reserves who served two tours of duty in Iraq, told the Associated Press.
    Tens of thousands of people have apparently responded to PETA's plea urging the Pentagon to stop the use of animals in medical trauma training, Goodman said.
    U.S. Rep. Bob Filner, a California Democrat, has introduced legislation, HR1417, to phase out use of live animals by the military in training. So far, he has 49 cosponsors. But he told the Associated Press that he has faced opposition from the Defense Department. PETA advocates the use of humanlike simulators for military training, like the one shown in this YouTube video.  
    He said the training has also proved invaluable in noncombat situations, such as when Coast Guard members were the first to respond to Haiti's devastating 2010 earthquake, the AP reported. But some medical professionals say the practice is cruel and unnecessary and have signed a letter, drafted by PETA, to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta seeking an end to the practice, the Associated Press said.
    Goodman said "We're still waiting to get a response from the Coast Guard". 
    Make love not war
    Is this science? perhaps you should change the name to "rambling opinionated smartarsed woffle 2.0"

    Hank
    And these PETA crazies think the military is made up of all robots - it would never have gotten to the scenario they describe because lots and lots of soldiers would have put a stop to it before there were screaming animals but lots and lots of officers would have gotten there first.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    HedgehogFive
    What will happen if you pit black-robed male Ayatollahs against disrobed female PETAtollahs?