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    Are Vision and Consciousness Intimately Related?
    By Richard Mankiewicz | April 4th 2010 02:19 AM | 15 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Richard

    I used to be lots of things, but all people see now is a red man. The universe has gifted me a rare autoimmune skin condition known as erythroderma...

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    In my article on brain waves and consciousness I looked at some research associating gamma wave activity with consciousness. This is, however, a controversial area in that other researchers have found that such gamma activity is also correlated with eye movements known as saccades: these are the small eye movements that the brain edits out so that we do not perceive the world as a blur as we switch focus. So, are brain gamma waves merely a byproduct of saccadic movements or are they correlated with consciousness or, potentially, both?

    You can follow the relevant articles and the subsequent discussions at Neuron. The situation is summed up as follows:"In summary, Tallon-Baudry suggests that there are two separate responses: one related to microsaccades and the other to neural gamma oscillations. These two responses seem, however, to occur at the same latency (200-300 ms), the same distribution (occipito-parietal with nose reference), the same frequency spectrum (peak at 30-40 Hz with a broadband tail) and could be affected by the same cognitive manipulations (e.g. familiarity enhances both). While we [Yuval-Greenberg at al.] cannot exclude such coincidence, [...] our paper implies that studying the contribution of a neural component to [the gamma-band] requires at least the explicit consideration of small saccades and control of their effects. In our hands, this control seems to abolish the transient [gamma-band] signal. " The microsaccades theory is that the eyes - more specifically the eye muscles - act as dipoles which create an electromagnetic field as they oscillate around the gamma frequency range.

    What I actually wanted to say here was on a more personal basis; an experience that leads me to think that perhaps both theories are right. In my brain-crash article I describe my experience of regaining consciousness after a syncope. In my attempt to render the experience in meaningful words I explained that the state of unitary consciousness was devoid of any inputs: I could not feel, or hear, or smell, or taste, nor was there any thinking such as our internal chatter or images. However, you will note that there was some kind of visual ground state. The above research articles then made me think: what would it mean not to see? It is simple enough to think of not hearing anything or not feeling anything, but what would it feel like to not see anything? Seeing darkness is not the same as seeing nothing. Seeing some interference pattern generated by an absence of signals is also not the same as seeing nothing. There is a state in which we see nothing: sleeping. But that is also a state of unconsciousness.

    Based on little more than my own experience I just wanted to throw the question open: is vision intimately related to consciousness? Do the eyes somehow switch on consciousness? Even REM sleep can be thought of as closer to being conscious than unconscious and is itself associated with eye movements.

    My guess is that similar research on blind people may yield some answers. Do blind people still have microsaccades? Is there a difference in brain waves between people who are blind but still have eyes compared to those who have lost one or more eyes through accidents or tumors? Any references appreciated.

    Comments

    I'm going to cut through the bull, Richard. Yes they are. How do I know? Because besides being a damn good scientist I am also a natural born and highly trained Native-American shaman. Why do you think I love the Earth so much? I have been seeing things since I was seven years old. And everything that I foresaw has come true, and I mean EVERYTHING! You could say that this world of so-called "human beings" is my worst nightmare come true!

    I once stated that I was anti-religious and that is true. Religion is an artifact of man. But I never said that I wasn't spiritual. I know that I am an incorporeal being in a human body. I look at it as a learning/teaching part of my growth as a multidimensional being. So there! Are you satisfied? I have visions all of the time. I don't try to explain them scientifically because I can't.

    I'm not psychotic; even my psychiatrist and psychologist agree that I am not psychotic. Science for me is a discipline in understanding the natural (i.e. physical) world. My abilities as perhaps one of the most powerful shaman since Geronimo are beyond my comprehension. I accept them as I would any unexplained phenomenon, but that doesn't mean I have any understanding of my so-called "supernatural" abilities.

    It's no different than a person who uses their eyes to perceive the natural world around them, but doesn't have a clue as to how their eyes, optic nerves and occipital lobe work.

    Shocked are you or not?
    ROFL!!! You wrote "vision" in the title of your article and I saw "visions". Interesting, isn't it? And Hank thought that the autistic professor was undermining the definition of autism by stating that autism is just a matter of degrees. Well, that's only true if you look at autism as a disability rather than a natural ability. The same is true of dyslexia, and I am a dyslexic. But I don't look at it as a dysfunction or disorder. Rather, I see everything else around me as screwed up! I also have been diagnosed with asperger syndrome, a mild form of autism. And yet I have an IQ that is quite literally off the scale.

    You see, I see the world the same way as those that the world labels as autistic. The only difference is that I care enough about the rest of humanity to try to explain it to the rest of you. And I have the ability to articulate myself damn well, if and when I choose. But, I don't care that much. And, I do not suffer fools well!

    I'm also going to tell you right now, the problem, the dysfunction, is not in them, but in all of the rest of you! ;-)
    rychardemanne
    You know, sometimes the best discussions are those that go off at a tangent. You bring to mind the existentialist writers and the 'outsiders'. Carl Jung thought that society - the normal, the average, the mediocre - cast out the outsiders as a legitimate defence mechanism and only let them back in if they happen to discover something useful to the rest of the tribe. However, one option rarely discussed is that the outsider may well discover things that are most useful to other outsiders!
    rychardemanne
    Shocked? Not at all. Fascinated, yes! I'm sure we've discussed before that (most, not all) organised religions are mere shadows of their shamanic or mystical roots. So much so that some go so far as to deny people these (super)natural abilities.

    For the individual, there is no point denying one's gifts and waiting for scientific verification. Life doesn't happen that way and we manage our gifts the best we can. But, as physics becomes more subtle, I think it worth investigating such phenomena - we may just be looking in the wrong place or at the wrong frequencies, but if such abilities were to be understood we may see a profound change in humanity. Hopefully for the better.
    There is seeing, Richard and then there is SEEING. A person who is classified as severely autistic is simply disinterested in this world. They are at the latter stages of becoming something more evolved than a primitive human being. The test is not for them, but for those of you around them. It's a test of your understanding, your compassion and not theirs.

    We are extremely hypersensitive and are fearful of human beings because you are so primitive, cruel and brutal by our standards. I guess I was lucky in that I was taught to be a warrior first and to trust no one. And that is the only reason why I even bother communicating with the rest of you. I have no interest in the fate of humanity. You've already sealed your own fate, whether you accept or realize it or not. No "God" is going to damn you. You people have already damned yourselves! You're just too stupid and primitive to realize it. What can I say?
    So! Are we clear now?
    Evidently not.

    --end transmission--
    Goodnight, Richard et al.
    Gerhard Adam
    ... I just wanted to throw the question open: is vision intimately related to consciousness? Do the eyes somehow switch on consciousness?

    I would have to say no.  If you consider the case of Helen Keller, you have someone that is deprived of significant sensory input including vision and yet she is able to bridge the gap to acquire language and communication.  This strongly suggests that the "consciousness" of her brain was quite prepared to respond, if a means could be found through the senses to do so (and once it was attained there were no more boundaries than anyone else might experience).

    However, it also makes sense to consider that the role of the senses is to converted stimuli to signals for the brain to process.  Given such a setup, it would be hard not to consider the central processing point (i.e. the brain) as the center of that "universe".  In other words, all inputs lead to the brain.  Therefore any animal with a sufficiently high cognitive ability must invariably see "itself" as the center of all sensory input and consequently have a sense of self against everything else in its environment. 

    Unfortunately, we don't actually have much of a working definition for "consciousness" and what that means to an organism, but it seems that this would be the starting point for such a definition.
    Aitch
    There is a state in which we see nothing: sleeping. But that is
    also a state of unconsciousness.
    For the same reason that Eric gives in his first response to this piece, that statement makes me cringe....we are not UNconscious when we sleep....merely unaware of the things our conscious mind is doing for us, as it sifts and sorts all kinds of inputs since our last sleep - often supplying us with answers to questions we didn't even remember posing, because we think we are a 'fixed' person, instead of a dynamic one. When we are sleeping delta waves are occurring and the ideation that can take place during the theta state is often free flow and occurs without censorship or guilt. It is typically a very positive mental state.
    Once we close our eyes, our brainwaves will descend from beta, to alpha, to theta and finally, when we fall asleep, to delta, only to return to theta for our dreamstate
    The frequencies can range from 40hz down to 2 or 3hz in very deep sleep, but our consciousness is still there - just our attention to it is missing, this is why it is called rest
    We really NEED a break from it, recuperatively!
    The whole spectrum from Alpha, through gamma, theta, and delta needs to be looked at together, in order to even begin to understand, or my preferred word, overstand the 'mind' brain functions
    Most consciousness occurs at a far faster rate than people realise, especially those scientists studying it - though my feeling is that you actually have to slow the frequency of the carrier wave, in order to sense the higher vibrational consciousness
    A bit of Eric's shamanism wouldn't go amiss for them, in my way of seeing things
    A point which I feel aware of, regarding the vision link, is that there are other frequencies which are running in parallel to gamma waves, modifying them additively and subtractively - the eye link is just one of many
    By only focusing on gamma frequencies the researchers are seeing the canvas but not the big picture
    Think about a person standing vertically as a 1/4 wave dipole, and see what predominant frequency occurs -  oh, surprise, surprise it's gamma frequency....yet studies of people meditating, raising their consciousness, most difference is in the theta wave region, though the alpha rhythms also amplify
    The dream state can be experienced by shamans and psychics without sleeping, and accounts for the vision-ability - Red Indian and Aborigine cultures both have this tradition, though in the west, we are conditioned to believe it is wrong and have it 'feared out of us' at an early age......but for some of us, it just won't go away - IT remains fearless!
    This is not to be confused with what is referred to as the REM state, which is the 'sifting' state I referred to earlier - how many people remember the dreams which were a construct of many of the days events all stirred in the minds melting pot to create often humourous dreams, containing those elements in bizarre sequences and locations...? - most, I suspect

    Much work needed yet, methinks, but I'm glad work is beginning to study this

    Eric, I feel a stronger need than you to have both the ability, and the explanations, and I guess I'm a bit more hopeful for the rest of humanity

    Gerhard, it must be remembered when considering such topics that the brain is intrinsically connected to the spinal and central nervous systems , and does not function in isolation, in the same way
    Just recently Rich Shull has posted about his understanding of his picturemind, and blind people have this quality also, despite having no visual referrant
    I knew a blind guy who could describe things he 'saw' that I had never imagined him to be able to perceive

    Aitch
    Gerhard Adam

    Aitch

    The point isn't to view the brain in isolation, but rather to consider it the ultimate focal point for sensory interpretation.  As a result, it is difficult to imagine any state of consciousness that doesn't ultimately include a sense of "self" as the recipient of all that data.

    Even our concept of consciousness though is vague, because there are many things that routinely occur of which we are not conscious and cannot readily become conscious, if at all.  In many cases, I would argue that even what we perceive as conscious awareness is rarely true until we focus our attention to analyzing the particular event.  For example, when you brush up against something, it is rare that one would experience a thought emphasizing that "I brushed up against something".  Instead our nervous system would process the event and our reaction to it without conscious effort.  Only when we examine it, do we have a sense that it was our "self" that brushed up against something and that it was our "self" that reacted to it.  

    So, in my view I would suggest that there are three states that may exist.  The unconscious, where we may process stimuli but we are incapable of reacting to it;  the conscious where we process stimuli and may react to it; and conscious awareness where we process stimuli, react to it, and are aware that we are doing so.  It is clearly the last state that I find interesting to pursue with respect to animals and their behavior.

     

    Aitch
    Gerhard

    I have difficulty with your concept of states, as by definition, it suggests boundaries, or boxes, into which to fit things

    My construct is more of a fluid, without boundaries, but with differential flows, merging and melding and affecting neighbouring flows

    I am also aware of a circumstance of being aware of 'the hairs going up on the back of my neck' in the close proximity of a person without touching them, yet feeling consciously alerted to their presence by the experience

    I would argue that even what we perceive as conscious awareness is rarely true until we focus our attention to analyzing the particular event.

    I don't feel that all 'logical' or 'thinking' analysis is adequate for the depth of conscious awareness

    Awareness doesn't have the same temporal construct as you seem to apply to it, as though you only analyze after the event. Even before we evolved to our current logical mind construct state, we were aware, else we would have been prey

    I think the sense of self is fundamental to our brain function as a difference engine
    - me - other, seems pretty basic, and olde worlde, even stone age, I suggest, as I feel a connection with what I often refer to, as, 'my old geezer' - that instinctive part of me from whence all the 'fight, flight, or freeze' stuff comes - and I have to make him conscious, else why would he still be in that large part of my brain considered by many to be 'unused', and yet still be of immense value to my survival?
    You do not analyze a need to jump to safety when in danger, and though you may wonder what made you aware of it after the event, I wouldn't call that consciousness - I actually think of that as grace

    I find it interesting you saying about conscious awareness in relation to animals, as your 3rd state, as I find that animals react better to me when I'm in tune with my 'old geezer' - horses, and dogs, in particular, and the feedback they give is a good gauge of mood, don't you think?

    ....but then some would say moods have nothing to do with consciousness because they aren't in the brain's remit

    Another reason why I have a fluid construct, rather than a labeled box one, I guess

    Aitch
    Gerhard Adam
    Even before we evolved to our current logical mind construct state, we were aware, else we would have been prey

    That doesn't follow, since many animals can avoid becoming prey without anything resembling awareness.
    I think the sense of self is fundamental to our brain function as a difference engine
    - me - other, seems pretty basic, and olde worlde, even stone age, I suggest, as I feel a connection with what I often refer to, as, 'my old geezer' - that instinctive part of me from whence all the 'fight, flight, or freeze' stuff comes - and I have to make him conscious ...


    Perhaps fundamental to humans but hardly universal.  Yet, it would seem hard to argue that a bacteria can avoid cannibalizing it's own kind without some sense of "us" and "them".   I certainly wouldn't credit them with awareness, but some level of "consciousness" (whatever that means) must exist or it would be impossible for an animal to differentiate itself from anything else. 

    As for making your "old geezer" conscious, I would have to disagree, since the primary objective in most human activities is to make them unconscious or almost instinctive (at least in any case where a specific skill is needed and analysis is a liability).  This is precisely why fighters, and people in sports must train sufficiently long and hard so as to avoid the conscious analysis part of the brain, lest it interfere with the results.  This is also done my musicians at a myriad number of other skills with the express purpose of eliminating as much conscious thought from the process as possible.

    There is a classic story about a grasshopper and a centipede. The grasshopper sees the centipede and is taken aback. "How is it possible," he asks, "that you can walk with all those legs?! How on earth do you do it?!" The centipede stops and says, "I don't know." The grasshopper insists on knowing. He says, "Come now! Don't keep it a secret! Tell me! I must know how you do it. If you really don't know, then think about it! I want you to tell me how you control all those legs." The centipede starts thinking about it, and after a few minutes he realizes he can no longer walk. He is totally confused, and now he can't get his legs to work at all.

    This is a good example of why conscious awareness can be a liability and why I place it in the analytical realm of brain functions.
    ...I find that animals react better to me when I'm in tune with my 'old geezer' - horses, and dogs, in particular, and the feedback they give is a good gauge of mood, don't you think?

    Well, yes and no.  In part it works with domesticated animals because they have become attuned to being around humans, so they are much more sensitive to things like "moods" and how we react around them.  With wild animals, all bets are off because their whole concept of interacting with humans is so vastly different.  Younger animals are more inquisitive and therefore will tend to be more amenable to developing a bond, but adults tend to be untrusting even after years of familiarity.  

    However, as you know, animals also have their own independent moods, so it tends to force one to act on a much more instinctive level when dealing with them.

    My point about awareness, relates to more analytical processes beyond simply the sensory stimulation of the world around us.  It is precisely because of such awareness that I suspect we have the capacity for emotions in the first place.  Animals that lack such awareness would have no such need, since they are incapable of seeing themselves as specifically engaged in an action. 
    You do not analyze a need to jump to safety when in danger, and though you may wonder what made you aware of it after the event, I wouldn't call that consciousness - I actually think of that as grace.

    I don't know what you mean by that.  Although I don't understand why you wouldn't call that consciousness, because clearly your brain interpreted something and caused you to react.  I would agree that it wasn't conscious awareness, but what else would you call it?



    Aitch
    Gosh, now I think I see why we have some of the exchanges we do

    You have a vastly different method of categorizing things to me.....

    I think of awareness as a being a cognisance function, and unlike many, possibly including yourself, based on your first answer, I do think animals have cognisance, and just because they may not have a perception similar to ours, does not, in my book, mean they are devoid of it

    Also, I'm a bit puzzled by your 'whatever it means', rider to your use of 'consciousness' followed in the next paragraph by disagreeing with my use of it attributed to my instinctual 'old geezer'

    .....since the primary objective in most human activities is to make them
    unconscious or almost instinctive (at least in any case where a specific
    skill is needed and analysis is a liability).
    This is where I feel there is confusion in your box-labelling marked 'unconscious' and 'instinctive'

    I can't get my head around an instinctive thing, which is what I believe gives rise to the 'sharp as a razor' comments, often used to describe someone who is hard to deceive, and unconscious which brings up an image of a dozy person, or someone prone to a sucker-punch, especially post-impact

    I don't think Cassius Clay/Mohamed Ali would agree with that either, as despite all the training, he relied absolutely on his sharpness of mind, his awareness, and his moment by moment analysis, to win his fights so convincingly, and was, I suggest, one of the reasons why so many people liked to watch him

    I think your example of the grasshopper and the centipede is merely an allegory designed to make people think they understand a point the original author was making, whereas, I believe there was a completely different motive - to force people to think for themselves, instead of relying on others who know better, it's a 'don't be lazy with your mind' kinda story, not about the centipede's but the listener's consciousness - it is quite humourous though.....
    It reminds me of zen's one hand clapping story - only a serious student of zen has had the answer given by a master

    I find it funny therefore that you draw the conclusion from it that consciousness is a liability, since I would say the message is the opposite, and that thinking is not equatable with consciousness. That is just the mind's greed playing tricks on you

    Again, you seem at odds with me where I mentioned animals, as you attribute qualities of consciousness to domesticated animals, whereas I think of them as being dumbed down in relation to the natural variety

    I had an experience many years ago with a herd of wild mountain ponies, when I was at a meditation camp in Wales. I had been sent out for a meditation walk with a zen question, to which I would find the answer when I became conscious of it
    It sounded completely baffling.....anyhow on my walk I came across this herd of wild mountain ponies, in the not too distant horizon, and I was heading towards them....well, as you can imagine, no sooner had I got to within about 100yds of them and the lead horse reared up, and they were off at the gallop - I assumed they sensed danger, and got out of its way.
    My walk took me down a waterfall path, up a hill the other side, then back to camp, dejected...I sobbed profusely, as there were some at the camp who were leaping about totally charged, clearly they had found the answer to their questions
    One of the leaders, came and sat by me, looking at me and my wet face
    Don't be jealous of them, he said, tomorrow they will cry, and you will be laughing, we have planned it that way to increase the intensity, and just to demonstrate that I know you are close, I can see  right up your nose.....
    My tears immediately ceased and I cracked up laughing - zen can be very powerful in strange ways.
    I got sent out again 3 times with that question, and on the 3rd time, having exhausted every thought and emotion I'd ever experienced, my walk became a float through beautiful things I'd passed but never noticed, I saw things I'd looked at, as if anew, and then, sheer joy of joys, the wild horses let me walk amongst them, and we did not fear each other, and they came and 'introduced themselves to me, first the herd leader, then, gradually others,..... the young, though curious, waited until at least 8 or nine adults had deemed me safe - and in the midst of the nature of the herd, my answer popped into my head, and was conscious - no thinking had been involved, no old geezer's 'fight flight or freeze', and no mind making greedy demands to find an answer - the answer came in response to an almost subliminal essence of being, from a state of oneness with creation itself, in 'no-time, nowhere, nohow'
    '...and from nothing anything is possible', rattled around in my mind and I jumped for joy letting out a loud 'yahoo!'

    and nature and the herd of wild horses, took no notice.....they too knew the answer, and the yahoo

    On my way back to camp, I took a shortcut across a gated field, and half way across I realized I wasn't alone in the field - there was a 2 ton bull right in my path,  about 25 yards ahead, and maybe 5 or 6 to my side, so I just looked at him, and told him what I had just discovered and said, and now, I must go back to camp and I'm late, so I really need for you to let me go across your field.  He nodded his approval and turned and walked away!

    That is why I call it grace, I hope you understand, as no other word seems appropriate. It's not so much that I react to something as I attune to it, there was no doing of anything, really, in fact the opposite - but there is an energy that arises, that is beyond description, as 'exhilaration' falls short by miles ;-)

    I think the feeling was known to the author of Highlander and the special effects guys did a remarkable job of simulating it - and it doesn't require you to slay all opponents with a sword, just fear is the 'enemy' of consciousness, if there is such a thing as consciousness's 'enemy'.....
    It certainly gets in the way, that's for sure

    Aitch
    Research was conducted sometime before 1980 in which scientists created a contact lens for subjects which held a very small projector which projected an image, like the letter "A" on a screen, but it would align and move along with the natural saccades movement of the focusing eye. In contrast to control group subjects, who focused on the letter "A" without the modified contact lens, the experimental group exhibited decreased alpha and beta brain wave activity and increased theta wave activity, the likes of which is only observed in very young children or seasoned zen masters. Subjects also reported unusual, yet peaceful and "freeing" altered states of consciousness, although they were not aware of any effort on their part to transform in these ways.

    Can anyone cite this research for me? I have been unable to locate the original work. Thanks in advance for your help.