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    The Male-Female Condition, Biological Insecurity and Patriarchies
    By Mark Berman | June 30th 2010 03:40 PM | 32 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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    I am a Teacher and Public Speaker first, an Entomologist second, a naturalist, a videographer, a photographer, a web designer and have multiple other...

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    I have a theory (not like a science theory… more like a personal theory) about patriarchies (male led cultures) – they don’t exist.


    I suppose, on the face of it, many human cultures appear to be patriarchies. They operate in patriarchical ways. For instance, in over 200 years the United States has never had a woman President – or Vice President – or Chief of Staff. Who wears the pants in our family?

    Well, I hate to admit I have spent more than my share of time alone, contemplating why it is so darn difficult to maintain a good relationship. Maybe it’s just me. But I will go to very great theoretical lengths to attribute it to something else! 

    Here’s some of what I have come up with so far:

    Males and females have completely different biological priorities. And this is primarily due to different investments in offspring. Males have virtually no investment – females have extreme investment. (With such a “sociobiological” postulation as this, it isn’t always convenient to explore examples in human culture, because we stopped obviously playing by Nature’s rules a long time ago. And also because these stories don’t usually turn out so good for the males!)

    For the question of investment in future generations though, humans aren’t a bad illustration. 

    A human female must carry each offspring, one (sometimes more) at a time, for 9 months. For the first few years of the child’s life it is practically helpless. Initially, a human child cannot feed itself, mobilize itself or protect itself against anything. It is *totally* dependent on its Mother for everything. It’s Dad? I suppose, push-comes-to-shove, a human child could take or leave its Dad (look around!) A human child is not reproductive (a biological, not sociological milestone) for about 13 years. It needs guidance for a long time – investment.

    But it’s more than that… A human female is born with all of her ovules, or reproductive, haploid cells, essentially intact. Meiosis, the process that halves the genetic compliment in the cells, takes place prenatally for the most part in females. The monthly menstrual cycle is the cleaning out of unfertilized, unused eggs (ovules). These ovules are physically, and biologically huge compared to the sperm cells the adult male makes on a regular basis. They’re huge. 

    Women make a few, huge, precious reproductive cells. We make a bunch – a whole bunch – of sperm cells, but they’re cheap. If something doesn’t work out, that’s okay – we’ll try next time!

    This is a fairly common phenomenon in the biological world. Females have the investment in the future. Males are just there to ‘mix things up’ (genetically). And in species with more ‘Natural cultures’ the relationship often extends to the individuals producing those genetic cells, too.

    I think the implications of this are far less trivial than we as a culture give them credit for. 

    For instance: Men don’t care. Why should they. The future is cheap. 

    While I am being a little pejorative to the concept, I am quite sincere in my suggestion. With a small investment in future generations, males are less likely to prioritize future potentialities.

    Females sacrifice a lot to reproduce. A whole lot. A physiological lot, but perhaps more significantly, a lot of time. The fact that we actually have a term such as ‘deadbeat dad’ suggests the *required* input for males. 

    This argument reaches some rocky ground at this point because we are taught the course of Evolution is not directed. In other words, the parents have no way of knowing what environmental conditions their babies will suffer (or enjoy). So they are not able to provide the “best” combinations of genes in any purposeful way. All parents can do is try to create a stable enough environment and enough “normal” kids to survive. (I don’t mean to sound crass here. In fact, the “non-normal” kids provide the variation for the unpredictability of the future environments. Like I said, it doesn’t always sound so good with human examples!)

    So the best that a female can do is pick a good example of a male to mate with and, especially in the case of humans, try to make the future environment as predictable as possible. 

    So, you can imagine spiraling implications in all of this. They manifest in most other species in what could be considered as grotesque by our standards of civility. 

    For example, the Praying Mantis. Get this… (it isn’t always true, but sometimes it is…)

    A male Praying Mantis has a limited amount of … um … ‘stuff’ to give to the next generation. Only so much sperm and all that goes with it. So he has an interesting “choice.” He could find a great gal and give her all his stuff, hoping she’s as great as he thinks and doesn’t get eaten by a bird or anything. He’ll have a batch of great kids. 

    But he could also hedge his bets. Perhaps he’d be better off giving some to one female and then some more to another and as many as he can. But most Mantis species are territorial predators. This means the females will be few and far between (I feel the empathy kicking in!) But it also means many female Mantids will eat another Mantis before something like a grasshopper because it represents competition for food in her territory! This is some hedge!

    Different species of animals employ some variation of these extremes. 

    Well, in some species of Mantids, Nature didn’t trust the males to make the right choice and so they have in the back of their brains a gland that produces a hormone that inhibits their mating behavior to the extent that they will tend to save some stuff for the next female. 

    Is that better than putting all your eggs in one basket (so to speak… um)? I don’t know. But females are unlikely to think so. They want as much stuff for their babies as they can get! This male reproductive inhibition doesn’t always sit so well with them.

    So, when she gets the idea she’s being taken for granted, often during the sacred act itself, she unceremoniously eats his head, removing the hormone-producing gland and so the inhibition!

    I suppose it is worth mentioning here that while insect nerves operate in very, very strikingly similar ways as ours, they are arranged much differently. The Arthropod “segmented nervous system” (contrasted with our “central nervous system”) allows each major section of the animal’s body to move and perform, to some extent, independent of other segments. They have a ‘brain’ in their heads that sort of guides them, but many reactions to the environment and the signaling required for survival never involve the brain in their heads.

    This means he can perform his reproductive duties just fine without his head, thank you. In fact, without that gland making that hormone anymore he really gives it his all! When he is finished, the female finishes eating him cause, well... why not at that point. This also means his offspring – into which he has all his marbles placed (so to speak) – get a big protein burst (him) at the time when the female needs it the most. 

    That such a system has become common in populations suggests that it has some advantage – but personally, I don’t like it!

    So here’s the problem. Because female investment is so high compared to males, when it comes right down to it, females have the choice. (okay, I know there are many apparent ‘exceptions’ to such a blatant statement, but that is part of my point. We don’t play by the rules!)

    And for all the bravado displayed by males in the interest of furthering their reproductive potential, it is painfully obvious in most plants and animals that the females have the males at a distinct disadvantage. And they act like it. 

    Matriarchy works!

    And it makes sense. Females care. Males worry whether they can mate with one female or more (disturbing lack of empathetic feelings here). Females have a huge investment in the future. A ‘culture’ in which the major ‘moral’ designs (referring to the mores of the culture) originate with female sensibilities is more likely to result in a stable future environment. 

    Look at a honeybee colony. Heck, it’s practically all female – to the extent that the reproductive strategy that has evolved results in the sisters being more closely related to their mother than to their brothers. The males do *nothing.* Well, they mate with the queens (from other colonies!)

    The all-female work staff takes care of the small cadre of males while they also tend to all the other needs of the society. Of course, when times get tough, the boys gotta go! They are virtually reproductive vessels. It seems like it could be the life. While I don’t speak ‘honeybee,’ I imagine the girls are not very nice to these loafers. 

    But the colony has a sweet order to it that leads to almost perfectly consistent environmental conditions from one generation to the next without harming the greater habitat. A matriarchy is copacetic. 

    But we are the only species on Earth (that I’m aware of) that attempts patriarchy. And look at what it’s gotten us. When times are tough, males are not the first to go (except voluntarily*). And, as a society, we are not the least bit forward-looking nor apparently concerned one bit about the future environment for our cheap offspring. 

    And, it doesn’t work. Men (referring specifically to human males) approach interactions with females from a position of biological insecurity. It’s almost embarrassing. 

    Men drone on and on about how they are all this or all that. In strictly biological terms, they aren’t. And, deep down inside, we all know it – so do they, the women. They know it, too.

    But if both genders know instinctively the insignificance of male contributions to future generations, how can our patriarchal model survive?

    By force. 

    By Brute Force – and the Future be Damned!


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    *Chivalry is not dead. The phrase ‘women and children first’ is famous for when a ship is sinking. And the Captain, arguably the “most fit” on the boat is supposed to go down with his ship. In this paradigm, chivalry is an extension of males needing to make unnatural demonstrations of their ‘fitness’ to females who have to accept certain anomalous circumstances living in a patriarchy, yet still having choice. Drowning at sea will not help you reproduce! (There are various extenuating complications to all this, such as whether or not the Captain already has offspring – especially males – who may benefit from his brave reputation, but, I mean, I already talk too much!)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Comments

    Gerhard Adam
    I think your point is well-taken but it seems to mix up some of the human elements between our modern society versus our more primitive evolutionary ancestors.

    A key point for males is that from a biological perspective, there is always some uncertainty regarding paternity, so a male must also be more committed to a particular female if he is to have any assurance that his "resources" aren't being expended on someone else's offspring.  In the primitive past, females would've been at a premium while males tend to be the most expendable since they are so readily replaced.  This is emphasized even more in some tribal societies where the entire group would be involved in raising children.
    And, as a society, we are not the least bit forward-looking nor apparently concerned one bit about the future environment for our cheap offspring.
     
    I think the point here is "society" and not "biology".  I also think we are quite "forward looking", but in a paranoid kind of way.  It is precisely this concern that has given rise to much of our social institutions that are intended to provide help and support for children.  While this may certainly be inadequate, it is a significant step wherein the society itself has attempted to organize itself around promoting the future generations.  This would never have been possible in more primitive tribal societies.
    Men don’t care. Why should they. The future is cheap.

    I would dispute that statement for other time periods besides the present.  I think men care a great deal, but they also have to be prepared to sacrifice for that future.  Once again, if we look at tribal societies, being male means being prepared to sacrifice yourself for your objective.  You may be killed in a conflict and would likely be killed as a captive, whereas women tend to be valuable in such situations because of their reproductive role.

    I'm not necessarily disputing some of your points, but I think it's important to distinguish between the biology that gave rise to humans, as a species, versus the society we now inhabit that has clearly demonstrated its reproductive success.

    I thought that men were supposed to be really important because they ensure you have genetically good offspring.Isn't that why women go back to men even if they cheat, because the alpha male sleeps with everyone to pass on his good genes so it's allowed?

    Gerhard Adam
    Sounds like you're trying to rationalize something that doesn't exist.  What do you mean "it's allowed"?
    I just meant that people forgive it .

    Gerhard Adam
    What people?  Aren't you making a rather broad generalization here?  While there may certainly be women that do forgive an infidelity, it would be difficult to argue that it's because of "good genes".
    In fact, I can't think of anyone in modern society that actually looks favorably on someone that "cheats" (male or female).

    I'm also not clear on why you choose to equate cheating with an alpha male.  That sounds contrived.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    'I have a theory (not like a science theory… more like a personal theory) about patriarchies (male led cultures) – they don’t exist....But if both genders know instinctively the insignificance of male contributions to future generations, how can our patriarchal model survive? By force.By Brute Force – and the Future be Damned!'

    So Mark, why do you say that patriarchies don't exist when they so blatantly do? Lions, horses, elephants, chimpanzees, humans the list of male dominated by brute force species is huge. It seems to me that it is the balance between sex and brute force within a species reproductive cycle that determines whether a species becomes matriarchal or patriarchal. For example, female bonobos exert matriarchal control by defusing potential aggression between males with pacifying sex for all, regardless of which one was stronger, it sounds like the praying mantis female and the Queen bees also have useful tactics to reduce the success of any male brute force by ensuring that all males die during copulation regardless. So are you saying that there is an evolutionary positive correlation between male brute force and successful reproduction that supports patriarchy and it is only when this positively correlated outcome is somehow prevented by females through whatever alternative means they have at their disposal to thwart male aggression, that a matriarchal society is then able to evolve?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Lions, horses, elephants, chimpanzees, humans the list of male dominated by brute force species is huge.
    Sorry, but that's just wrong.   Designating patriarchy or matriarchy simply misses the point and isn't based on the actual behavior of the species (such as horses, lions, etc.).  Elephants are a clear matriarchy, so I don't know why it's on your list.

    In the first place, you have to demonstrate a species that has a sufficient degree of social organization to where you can look to see if there's any kind of hierarchy.  If so, then you can begin to see whether such a hierarchy is actually controlled by one sex or the other (as well as what you mean by "control"). 

    As I said, the concept of "control" is a bit vague, since even your comments seem to be permeated with issues of "violence" and "aggression".   

    Also, Mark's comments about males having little or no investment is simply wrong.  They invariably have a much higher investment in the genetic future than females do, which is also why they tend to be more aggressive.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Well I guess it is about to boil down to definitions again..(yawn)..I was simply responding to what Mark said in this article. I think it is interesting to see how male aggression and supremacy can ultimately result in survival of his genetic offspring and these traits and visa versa for the females who can counteract it. There also seems to be a correlation between this and the type of patriarchy or matriarchy that results, that's all.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Well I guess it is about to boil down to definitions again
    Sorry, if definitions bore you, but without them, we end up talking to cross purposes.
    I think it is interesting to see how male aggression and supremacy can ultimately result in survival of his genetic offspring and these traits and visa versa for the females who can counteract it.
    I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say.  After all, that statement would only be true in social animals where the males stay around to help rear the young.  I also don't know what you mean by "counteract", since most matriarchal societies tend to drive bachelor males off, rather than do anything to "counteract" them during mating seasons.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Its simple, there are genes that are associated with male aggressive behavior and there are genes that are associated with for example, male cooperative or intelligent behavior. If dominant, aggressive male behavior somehow ensures that these males manage to defeat other males and/or mate with the females then their genes will be passed on. If on the other hand females are able to ignore the dominant, aggressive males and choose to mate with less dominant, more cooperative, impressive or intelligent males instead,  then these impressive, intelligent, cooperative male genes are more likely to be passed on.

    So what I am saying is that strong, aggressive males are successful in many species unless they can be counteracted by a female behavior that somehow makes their domineering male aggression redundant. Female bonobos disarm male aggression with sex showing no preference for the more aggressive male, the praying mantis female chooses her partner for whatever reasons and then bites his head off during sex, I seem to remember that the Queen bee chooses her drone and then rips his innards out during sex, the black widow spider eats the male and so on. Surely these are female behaviors that can counteract against genetic evolution favouring domineering, male aggression? They are also probably behaviors that correlate to some extent with whether the species has evolved into a patriarchal or matriarchal society.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I think you're being too simplistic in assigning traits to genes and correlating them to some sort of sexual selection criteria.  Similarly, you can't read too much into the insect examples, since often that's the only way for males to mate. 
    Mark-n-PRMantis
    Okay, well... interesting all.... 
    Gerhard - I would like to understand this better....

    Also, Mark's comments about males having little or no investment is simply wrong.  They invariably have a much higher investment in the genetic future than females do, which is also why they tend to be more aggressive.

    I'm pretty sure that from the size of the gamete ("male" is biologically defined as 'the one with the smaller gamete'), to gestation or pregnancy, to the size of the "male" Y chromosome (at least in humans), to the degree of parental care, to mitochondrial DNA and I imagine the list is longer - stripped of any societal mores, the disparity in biological investment between males and females is, I believe, dramatic.

    That said, you are also correct in that patriarchies in Nature are rare at best, if they exist at all. Roaming, nomadic males who come around and make a big stink every Christmas, does not make a patriarchy - the females control the 'culture' of lion and elephant societies. Especially in mammals that, by actual definition require the female to *feed* the offspring *from her own body's resources*(!!), the contribution of females is huge! And no matter how much noise the boys make, females control the mating distributions, too. 


    I think my argument here is not so much about male aggression (though that is a consequence) or behavior in general, but more about "biological insecurity," and what perspectives we can gain from an understanding of this aspect of male/female relations.

    I do not intend to make some sort of excuse for male behavior, rather I think an examination of what our culture would be like if the underlying, biological matriarchy were more transparent. It seems clear we are 'environmental misfits' - we're screwing up everything! And I am suggesting this is why; Males don't have an eye to the future in the same fundamental, biological way females do. 

    When I babble about stuff like this, I always think of Golda Meier and Hillary Clinton and others like them. But these "pioneers" are females playing at patriarchal games. It would take a lot more motherly love to move us in the more Natural direction.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    'Roaming, nomadic males who come around and make a big stink every Christmas, does not make a patriarchy - the females control the 'culture' of lion and elephant societies. Especially in mammals that, by actual definition require the female to *feed* the offspring *from her own body's resources*(!!), the contribution of females is huge! And no matter how much noise the boys make, females control the mating distributions, too'.

    You obviously haven't been watching the same miserable wild life documentaries that I have, that are often made even worse (if that's possible) by David Attenborough's woeful commentary, as we observe newly dominant alpha male lions kill all the cubs and offspring of the usurped previous domant alpha male or some poor, adolescent female elephant getting her leg broken by a huge, rapist bull elephant while the 'matriarchs' look on in horror. Come on, who's kidding who here? Violent aggressive males are everywhere sowing their seed, stallions, drakes, stags, even dolphins the list is endless........and the matriarchs are often powerless to stop them, let alone control the society or culture.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    You can't be serious.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Sorry Gerhard but what can't I be serious about?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Your representation of animals.  Certainly we know that there are human beings that have committed rape, but to characterize the entire human race as aggressive rapists would be wildly inaccurate.  Similarly your statements about animals seriously misses the boat.

    Your tone suggests that women are simply helpless victims when it comes to reproduction, so aggressive males routinely have their way and consequently pass on that aggressiveness into future generations.  Reality is much different.  Males are typically selected by females, so if there are aggressive genes, then perhaps we should be looking at why females select such males, rather than arbitrarily blaming the males.

    Few females tolerate unwanted advances, so while it may occur occasionally, it isn't something that represents typical behavior among animal groups.  In most cases, it would likely be something like a bachelor male that attempts to mate with a young (or even underage) female.  I also know that in the case of dolphins, it is usually a group that might be involved, so it also isn't typical behavior and a case could probably be made, that it wasn't about mating (just like human rape isn't).
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    'Certainly we know that there are human beings that have committed rape, but to characterize the entire human race as aggressive rapists would be wildly inaccurate'.

    I never did characterize the entire human race as rapists but I do think that rape has been commonplace in human history.

    'Your tone suggests that women are simply helpless victims when it comes to reproduction, so aggressive males routinely have their way and consequently pass on that aggressiveness into future generations. Reality is much different. Males are typically selected by females, so if there are aggressive genes, then perhaps we should be looking at why females select such males, rather than arbitrarily blaming the males'.

    Males are not typically selected by most women, only maybe in western society, the majority of women in the world are still often pretty helpless victims when it comes to reproduction. Aggressive males have routinely had their way for thousands of years in case you hadn't noticed and all of the wars that I have ever read about usually incorporate some form of rape and pillage by the victors army, even those of the 20th and 21st centuries.

    The majority of women in the world today are still being forced by domineering males around the world into arranged marriages or prostitution and/or unprotected sex and the resulting life-threatening repeated pregnancies and/or infections. Most women do not have equlity in political, financial or religious matters and many are experiencing domestic violence with little opportunity for recourse and justice. Catholicism promotes unprotected sex and repeated pregnancies and according to the Koran women don't even have souls and a muslim woman can be divorced by her husband simply by him renouncing her verbally.Genital mutilation is still being practiced on thousands of young girls every year and rape is not even recognise as possible in many marriages, so what world are you living in Gerhard?

    BTW many animals also experience rape and many females do not have much choice in who they have sex with, it is usually the dominant alpha male in herds for example, whether the females choose him or not. Female cats, ducks, geese, swans, chickens, some penquins, tasmanian tigers, elephants, hyenas, sheep, dolphins, some rhodents and many more animals also have little if any choice about who they have sex with and are often raped.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Genital mutilation is still being practiced on thousands of young girls every year and rape is not even recognise as possible in many marriages, so what world are you living in Gerhard?
    ... and here I thought this was supposed to be about science.  Whatever your feelings are regarding politics and culture around the world, have no place in a discussion that started out as dealing with biological reproduction and sexual selection.

    Your entire discussion seems to be focused on humans to the exclusion of virtually everything else.  While you might characterize it as being an opinion about anthropology, it is almost purely political in its orientation.  Your comment about rape is equally misguided, since rape has nothing to do with reproduction (in humans), so to even mention it is wrong.

    From here the whole thing degenerates into a rant about women's rights, politics, economics, and culture.  OK .... so what does this have to do with biology (and please don't attempt to argue that this is all a consequence of genetics).
    ...it is usually the dominant alpha male in herds for example, whether the females choose him or not.
    You clearly have not seen how herd dynamics operate.
    Female cats, ducks, geese, swans, chickens, some penquins, tasmanian tigers, elephants, hyenas, sheep, dolphins, some rhodents and many more animals also have little if any choice about who they have sex with and are often raped.
    That's simply bullshit.  If you check out how these animals mate, you'll find there's a reason why they are called "courtship" rituals.
    The courtship between a male and a female elephant is short lived. They will rub their bodies on each other and even wrap trunks. The females tend to run away from the males and he will have to pursue her.

    This game of cat and mouse can continue for a very long time before the actual mating does occur.The male elephants will fan their ears more when they are ready to mate than at other times. This allows them to get their scent out there at a wider distance than before and to attract females that can become potential mates.
    http://www.elephant-world.com/elephant-reproduction.html
    This is just one simple example and represents typical behavior, not the exceptions you seem to be focusing on.

    Equally, don't even bother to post examples of animals in captivity.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Your entire discussion seems to be focused on humans to the exclusion of virtually everything else........

    I'm bemused sometimes when you say statements like this when its blatantly wrong, as an example I said 'It is usually the dominant alpha male in herds for example, whether the females choose him or not'......and you said.....'You clearly have not seen how herd dynamics operate'. and so on...

    For 10 years we have farmed livestock, including free roaming herds of cows and horses, as well as many free-range geese, ducks and chickens. We also kept an intact male city cat to try to introduce bad genes into the feral cat population at the vet's advice and two dogs. I observed the herd dynamics a lot and witnessed the mating behaviours of all of these animals and much of what I saw all of supports my earlier statement that ''Female cats, ducks, geese, swans, chickens, some penquins, tasmanian tigers, elephants, hyenas, sheep, dolphins, some rhodents and many more animals also have little if any choice about who they have sex with and are often raped'.

    You say 'That's simply bullshit. If you check out how these animals mate, you'll find there's a reason why they are called "courtship" rituals'.

    The geese, ducks and chickens had some courtship rituals which all usually ended in the female having sex with the male whether she wanted it or not, unless she managed to get away.

    You say that 'The courtship between a male and a female elephant is short lived. They will rub their bodies on each other and even wrap trunks. The females tend to run away from the males and he will have to pursue her. This game of cat and mouse can continue for a very long time before the actual mating does occur'.

    Only a male could interpret a female elephant repeatedly 'running away' for 'a very long time' as voluntary, consensual sex and a courtship ritual..I have watched several documentaries about elephants in which forced sex definitely took place, and as I mentioned earlier in one of the documentaries an adolescent, pubescent female had her leg broken during the sex act because the bull was about 5 times her size an she repeatedly ran away. That sex was definitely not consensual, it was rape and the poor female elephant suffered terribly then and later and the matriarchs were unable to prevent any of this from happening, though they did try to intervene much to his fury.

    Yes, he was fanning his ears but it certainly wasn't attracting this female with his scent, I got the impression it just made him look even bigger than he already was which scared her even more, for good reason.

    The behaviour of male ducks or drakes is even worse, without a doubt the female ducks are repeatedly raped. When I used to work by the river Thames in London many years ago I quite often had to rescue female ducks from gangs of rapist male ducks. I even saw these male ducks having sex with females that had died as a result of these 'gang bangs'. You might call the behaviour of those drakes strutting around a courtship ritual, i call it a prelude to rape.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I'm bemused sometimes when you say statements like this when its blatantly wrong
    Yeah ... four paragraphs on human culture and one "BTW" that includes animals.

    You obviously have an axe to grind and aren't interested in the reality.   I am not interested in discussing a topic like this with someone that clearly has such an irrational view of the world.  If you think women are simply helpless victims and males are nothing but aggressive rapists, then I feel sorry for you.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    'You obviously have an axe to grind and aren't interested in the reality. So, if in your view the world consists of nothing but male rapists, then so be it. I guess females are just helpless victims'.

    Gerhard, yes I might have an axe to grind but that doesn't mean that I am not interested in reality. My worldview does not consist of nothing but rapists and helpless female victims, as I repeatedly pointed out earlier the bonobo matriarchal society works well and there are many others that also manage to counteract male sexual aggression and domination but that doesn't mean that I have to accept that those species in which the females are being forced to have sex are doing it voluntarily and I'm afraid that includes a lot of women on this planet too.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Stop with the bonobos!  That only represents ONE species and most of that information is only from observation of bonobos in captivity.  I also am not interested in cultural discussions about the plight of women.

    The irony is that you would HATE living in a society that followed the bonobo style.  Do you really envision someone breaking into your home and your resolving it by having sex with them?  or your husband offering to?  That's the essence of bonobo reconciliation of conflict.  You get all upset about animal rape, when the bonobo lifestyle promotes exactly the same thing, except that everyone is supposed to voluntarily participate.

    That would be like arguing that we could eliminate rape as a crime if women would only cooperate.  Does that make any kind of sense to you?  Do you believe that bonobos have the ability to "just say no" if they don't want to participate in sex?  If they want to exercise that choice, then how are they supposed to resolve conflicts?

    I get that bonobos represent a novel approach, but they aren't pacifists either.  Even Wikipedia has this quote from Frans De Waal
    "De Waal has warned of the danger of romanticizing Bonobos: "All animals are competitive by nature and cooperative only under specific circumstances" as well as writing that "when first writing about their behavior, I spoke of 'sex for peace' precisely because bonobos had plenty of conflicts. There would obviously be no need for peacemaking if they lived in perfect harmony". Because research of Bonobos in the wild is still immature compared to that of the Common Chimpanzee, lethal aggression between Bonobos could still be discovered."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo
    Hank
    Do you really envision someone breaking into your home and your resolving it by having sex with them?
    Crime rates would spike considerably.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    Another point to consider regarding your bonobo example is that there is no concept of a nuclear family and females raise offspring essentially by themselves.
    Because of the promiscuous mating behavior of female bonobos, there is agreat deal of paternal uncertainty. If a male cannot be sure whichoffspring are his, he is less likely to invest any time or energy caringfor them. It is because of this lack of certainty that the entirety ofparental care in bonobos is assumed by the mothers (de Waal 1997).
    http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/entry/bonobo/behav

    In addition, it seems that the only sexual prohibition may be between mothers and their sons, so again, I'm not sure on what benefit you think this conveys beyond bonobo society.  What's the lesson here?

    As I said, for someone that seems so adamant about rape, you choose a strange example to resolve the problem.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    I think that you should also 'stop with the bonobos' yourself Gerhard. You have cherry-picked your quotes here I think, Why didn't you include the following 2 sentences?

    'That is not to say that adult males are not attentive to infants in the unit-group, in fact, there is very little aggression directed towards bonobo infants by adult males in the group and infanticide has never been recorded (Kuroda 1989; de Waal 1997)'. Also your interpretation that a female bonobo would have sex with the equivalent of an intruder or burglar is also completely wrong.

    ' Males also associate with females for rank acquisition because females dominate the social environment. Females that have strong bonds keep males away from food and often attack males, biting off their fingers and toes (de Waal 1997). If a male is to achieve alpha status in a bonobo group, he must be accepted by the alpha female'.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I'm not cherry-picking quotes, which is precisely why I always include the link.  Your response has nothing to do with anything, since the issue isn't whether adult males attack, ignore, or play with infants. 
    Also your interpretation that a female bonobo would have sex with the equivalent of an intruder or burglar is also completely wrong.
    Not at all.  Since conflicts between groups invariably involve territory or possessions, it is exactly correct.  Certainly because of the nature of human society, property ideas, etc. it looks a bit different, the point is conflict resolution over something that belongs to a particular group or individual.
    Serious conflict between bonobo groups has been witnessed in the field, but it seems quite rare. On the contrary, reports exist of peaceable mingling, including mutual sex and grooming, between what appear to be different communities. If intergroup combat is indeed unusual, it may explain the lower rate of all-male associations.
    http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobosexsoc.html
    As the quote indicates, this is behavior that also occurs between conflicting groups, so it is an entirely appropriate comparison.
    Females that have strong bonds keep males away from food and often attack males, biting off their fingers and toes (de Waal 1997). If a male is to achieve alpha status in a bonobo group, he must be accepted by the alpha female'.
    I found this quote interesting because it doesn't suggest a better society, only one with females instead of males in charge.  Seems like if the consequences of acquiring food risk getting one's fingers and toes bitten off, it isn't exactly "conflict-free".

    I certainly don't have anything against bonobos, but I also don't think it's reasonable to hold them up as some kind of social model that is somehow desirable for humans.  They represent one particular social adaptation that may or may not work for them.   Unfortunately, people seem to latch on to the bonobos social behavior as some sort of indication that they are on higher moral grounds than others (including humans).  That's just silly.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    'Unfortunately, people seem to latch on to the bonobos social behavior as some sort of indication that they are on higher moral grounds than others (including humans). That's just silly'.

    I disagree Gerhard, I think that bonobos are on higher moral ground than humans, as your facts about bonobos link above states...

    'Bonobos are far less aggressive and dominating than other apes such as chimpanzees.....Scientists such as Jared Diamond in The Third Chimpanzee, and Morris Goodman of Wayne State University in Detroit argue that the Bonobo and Common Chimpanzee are so closely related to humans that their genus name also should be classified with the human genus Homo: Homo paniscus,...Primatologist Frans de Waal states that the Bonobo is capable of altruism, compassion, empathy, kindness, patience, and sensitivity'

    'Observations in the wild indicate that the males among the related Common Chimpanzee communities are extraordinarily hostile to males from outside the community...This does not appear to be the behavior of the Bonobo males or females in their own communities, where they seem to prefer sexual contact over violent confrontation with outsiders. In fact, the Japanese scientists who have spent the most time working with wild Bonobos describe the species as extraordinarily peaceful, and De Waal has documented how Bonobos may often resolve conflicts with sexual contact (hence the "make love – not war" characterization for the species)'.

    'The popular image of the Bonobo as a peaceful ape does not always apply to captive populations. Accounts exist of Bonobos confined in zoos mutilating one another and engaging in bullying. These incidents may be due to the practice in zoos of separating mothers and sons, which is contrary to their social organization in the wild.Bonobo society is dominated by females, and severing the lifelong alliance between mothers and their male offspring may make them vulnerable to female aggression'.

    'De Waal has warned of the danger of romanticizing Bonobos: "All animals are competitive by nature and cooperative only under specific circumstances" as well as writing that "when first writing about their behavior, I spoke of 'sex for peace' precisely because bonobos had plenty of conflicts. There would obviously be no need for peacemaking if they lived in perfect harmony". Because research of Bonobos in the wild is still immature compared to that of the Common Chimpanzee, lethal aggression between Bonobos could still be discovered'.

    But the reality is that lethal aggression between bonobos has still not been discovered or observed and as far as I'm cncerned that does give them superior moral ground over us.

    Back to the original discussion though, I would like to clarify my viewpoint and that is that I do not believe that all animals and humans are rapists as you implied, I believe that some species force sex on females and that some don't and I've identified some of those that do and one that doesn't. I also think that some human societies disempower women and empower men making coerced or forced sex easier for some males to enforce. Finally, I think that there is some correlation between these outcomes and the extent to which the animals and/or people concerned live in a matriarchal or patriarchal society.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    ...I think that bonobos are on higher moral ground than humans...
    Sorry, but that is just silly.  You're making a value judgment based on the social behavior of a species that was simply selected for it.  It's not like bonobos sat down one day and decided that this was how they were going to behave, so to even use the word "moral" is ridiculous.

    Why not compare to ants?  There loyal, dedicated, altruistic, etc.  Are ants morally superior to humans?  Their lifestyle is as much under their direct control as the bonobos is.

    Why don't you describe your vision of how human society should behave based on the bonobos.  I'd love to hear how you think this would play out.  Instead of idealizing them and their behavior ... give me some examples of how humans should change.  However, don't just describe it with nebulous phrases about  how we should just all get along and stop fighting.


    Gerhard Adam
    I would like to clarify my viewpoint and that is that I do not believe that all animals and humans are rapists as you implied...
    As I implied?  Selective reading?  These are YOUR words:
    Violent aggressive males are everywhere sowing their seed, stallions, drakes, stags, even dolphins the list is endless........and the matriarchs are often powerless to stop them, let alone control the society or culture.

    I do think that rape has been commonplace in human history.

    ...many more animals also have little if any choice about who they have sex with and are often raped.
    If you want to distance yourself from your original rant, then that's fine, but don't lay it at my feet.  You started with violence, aggression, and rape. 
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Actually it was Mark who wrote...

    'Men drone on and on about how they are all this or all that. In strictly biological terms, they aren’t. And, deep down inside, we all know it – so do they, the women. They know it, too. But if both genders know instinctively the insignificance of male contributions to future generations, how can our patriarchal model survive? By force. By Brute Force – and the Future be Damned!'

    I was responding to his words in his article, you maybe had your own agenda or didn't even read that far? BTW my girlfriends and I in Bali are giving quite a bit of thought to the concept of how human patriarchal society could be improved by adopting some of the bonobo matriarchal societal and cultural values and standards, so watch this space. :-)
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Mark, my point about investment is that the case is often presented far too simplistically as if reproduction simply involves sex and pregnancy.  Successful reproduction involves raising offspring to become mature adults that are also capable of reproduction.  Anything less is a failure biologically.

    There are going to be obvious discrepancies depending on whether males and females stay together to raise offspring or not, so I won't belabor those clear discrepancies.  In those cases, the male has little investment, but the male correspondingly has little assurance of his genes being passed on.  The female is always assured of her genetic representation in the future, if her offspring survive.  However, equally in these cases, there is no "society" (either matriarchal or patriarchal), so there isn't much to discuss.

    In the cases, where there is a social bond, the male invests his very life in having to run the risks of protection and fighting to protect his progeny.  The female, once again, doesn't particularly care who impregnates her and if she chooses reasonably well, will have a strong enough male to ensure that she and her offspring are protected.  A male's entire reason for existing is to protect that "investment", so I would say they have a heavy stake in the outcomes.  This is even more readily observed when a male may end up committing energy and resources to raise offspring that aren't even his.

    It's also important to keep in mind that in social groupings where females are pregnant, it is the males that will have the additional responsibility of protecting the females as well as future offspring, so the male "investment" extends to that as well.  In short, males are ultimately considered expendable since they must be willing to sacrifice themselves to ensure their genetic survival in future generations.  A male that invests nothing, also guarantees nothing.  As I said, the female is always guaranteed a result, as long as the young survive.

    Most of the talk of aggression, is male against male, precisely because of this issue, so it simply isn't true that males are some kind of rampaging group that indiscriminately perpetrates violence on one another.  It is the ultimate investment against the ultimate uncertainty if they aren't aggressive about it.

    I do understand that in many cases a pair-bond may share responsibilities in providing for the young, but whether its the coloration of birds, to the confrontations between "alpha males", the point is that the male must be prepared to sacrifice their lives to achieve success.  This almost never occurs with females, because it would be a lose-lose scenario.
    you two need to get a room