What Would Cast Doubt On Evolution? Spontaneous Generation
    By Adam Retchless | March 15th 2010 11:03 PM | 43 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments

    Advocates of Intelligent Design (ID) creationism like to play Stump the Scientist by asking evolutionary biologists, "what would disprove evolution?" Several answers have been given1, but I want to add another: "spontaneous generation," meaning the creation of organisms without parents. The question of how to disprove evolution draws its power from the idea of falsifiability, which was formalized by the philosopher Karl Popper as the test to separate science from non-science2. This question also raises the more general issue of whether biologists are open to non-evolutionary explanations for the diversity of life.

    My response demands a mechanism that could supplant evolution as an explanation for the patterns of biodiversity that we observe in the world. This is not the most elegant way to evaluate evolution, especially because we have no way to pursue research into spontaneous generation. My focus on how an alternative theory could undermine evolutionary theory should not be interpreted to mean that  the only way to discredit evolutionary theory is to find a better explanation. There are several facts about the world that are necessary for evolutionary theory to be meaningful; if these facts were not true, then evolutionary theory would be discarded and we would have no good scientific explanation for the diversity of life. However, these facts have been investigated so thoroughly over the past 150 years that their description is best covered in textbooks, not in an essay3.

    Consideration of spontaneous generation as an alternative theory is valuable for how it informs the current debate surrounding evolution. It demonstrates how a new observation could cause researchers to discard evolutionary theory, thereby illustrating the scientific process, and consequently showing how evolutionary theory is well founded whereas ID is nothing more than wild speculation. As a bonus, it provides some historical context for the development of evolutionary theory, since many scientists believed in the reality of spontaneous generation, both before and after the 1859 publication of Charles Darwin's On The Origin of Species4.

    This device was central to his experiments of 1860-1862, demonstrating that broth remains sterile even when air is permitted to enter the flask, but dust is excluded. These experiments largely ended the debate on spontaneous generation, although heat-resistant spores continued to confuse the issue until 1876. Figure: Pasteur's swan-neck flask: this device was central to his experiments of 1860-1862, demonstrating that broth remains sterile even when air is permitted to enter the flask, but dust is excluded. These experiments largely ended the debate on spontaneous generation, although heat-resistant spores continued to confuse the issue until 1876.


    To evaluate how spontaneous generation could discredit evolutionary theory, we first need to define "evolution" and "spontaneous generation". Evolution is a vast and complicated field of study containing many individual hypotheses -- after all, it encompasses the entire diversity of life on Earth over the course of billions of years. The most inclusive hypothesis that I can think of is the assertion that all life on Earth is descended from an ancient population that lacked most of the diversity that we see in modern life. I have high confidence in this hypothesis, which I'll call the Universal Ancestor Hypothesis. As for spontaneous generation, it could take any number of forms, including a conjurer who causes life to appear by speaking a few words, a magical cave in a tropical jungle with new life pouring out of it, or a laboratory concoction that suddenly teems with life. It could not rely on a complicated modern technology; otherwise, it could not explain anything that existed before that technology was developed.

    The rejection of the Universal Ancestor Hypothesis would not mean that "evolution" had been rejected, though its explanatory power would be substantially diminished. For instance, if the Universal Ancestor Hypothesis were found to be false, it might be replaced with hypotheses such as, "all plants descend from a single ancestral population, while all animals descend from a separate ancestral population," as Darwin himself suggested in On the Origins of Species5. Only by rejecting all genetic relationships between species would evolution be completely rejected as a historical theory, though mutation and selection would still have a role in describing contemporary population dynamics.

    The discovery of spontaneous generation would only undermine the Universal Ancestor Hypothesis if it provided a better explanation for the patterns of biodiversity that exist in both contemporary populations and the fossil record. Researchers would first have to show that spontaneous generation occurs on a regular basis, both so that it can be validated as true spontaneous generation, and also so that it could have made substantial contributions to biodiversity. The implications of this discovery for evolutionary theory would depend on how similar these spontaneously generated organisms are to known life.

    We may find that they are nothing like known life, in which case spontaneous generation would have no evolutionary implications, except perhaps in the distant past. At the other extreme, we may find that all types of known life can be spontaneously generated, leading us to conclude that existing populations were actually established by spontaneous generation, rather than evolution. For instance, if we find a spontaneously generated mouse that is fully interfertile with known mice, then we would probably conclude that mice had not evolved from non-mouse ancestors. If we observe a wide variety spontaneously generated organisms from several branches of the tree of life, we might conclude that the tree does not represent any sort of historical process. However, there would still be room for explanations that involve both spontaneous generation and evolution. If we find mice but not rats, we may suspect that rats had evolved from mice. If we find only microbes, we may develop a theory where "lower" organisms are constantly generated spontaneously, but "higher" organisms have evolved from the lower organisms that populated the earth eons ago. This theory was actually somewhat influential during the 19th century, when it looked like spontaneous generation only involved microbes. Among its many supporters was Jean-Baptiste Lamarck, who was known for developing a theory of evolution that lacked  natural selection.

    The point of the above research program would be to describe a variety of processes that can create organisms so that historical models can be built around them. Without this basic research, we could not compare a historical model based on spontaneous generation to the standard evolutionary model based on genetics and ecology. Unless a historical model is constrained by independent knowledge of how life exists, it can explain anything.

    Legitimate evolutionary theory is always limited to events that are plausible given our existing knowledge of life, and historical inferences often give rise to novel hypotheses about what life is capable of. For instance, if an analysis of DNA sequence data leads to the inference that an antibiotic resistance gene has been transferred between two species of bacteria, then we can test whether this transfer of resistance can be observed under laboratory conditions6. This type of experiment has been common since Darwin tested whether various seeds could germinate after exposure to seawater, to test his evolutionary hypothesis that plants had spread from the continents to oceanic islands.

    The scientific process described above illustrates the fundamental problem with Intelligent Design theory. Having never witnessed anything approaching this "intelligent design"-- not even any non-human bioengineering or breeding -- we cannot say how a history of ID would be apparent in today's world. ID theory pretends to explain patterns of biodiversity, but it makes no concrete reference to the process that supposedly generated that biodiversity. From one perspective, we can say that this makes ID implausible (i.e.the chance that ID happened is infinitesimal). From a different perspective we can say that this makes ID unfalsifiable because any possible observation of the modern world would be consistent with ID -- we would just have to assume that the designer was the type that would create the world as we see it. This infinite malleability is what Popper identified as the fundamental flaw of the Marxist school of historical analysis2, and likewise this is what makes ID pseudoscience. Of course, advocates of ID claim that it is testable7, but in the absence of any independent knowledge of what ID looks like, a responsible scientist cannot infer that it has occurred in the past.

    The historical debates over spontaneous generation also inform the philosophical issues surrounding the general creationist movement, which has latched onto ID as though it could prove the existence of a god, despite its secular raiment8. Both Darwin's evolutionary theory and the spontaneous generation theories of his contemporaries were viewed as threats to religion. Spontaneous generation was thought to occur due to the intrinsic properties of matter, self-organizing to create living cells, so it too contradicted the traditional Christian creation story. One lesson from this is that evolution is not the only materialistic theory that could explain the diversity of life, so the rejection of evolution does not implicitly support creationism. Indeed, if we are willing to make historical inferences that are unconstrained by our knowledge of how life behaves today, then we could surely think up countless explanations that are just as plausible as creationism.

    The flip side to this is that religion does not depend on creationism. While many people who were raised on creationism had trouble incorporating evolution into their personal theology, plenty of religious leaders have recognized that the core of their theology does not depend on what we can discover about the material world8. If a person can't find God in philosophy or their day-to-day experiences, then a half-baked historical inference such as ID isn't going to change that.

    --notes--

    [1]Wikipedia has several examples of answersto the question of what would disprove evolution.

    [2]




    [3]Others have compiled catalogs of the evidence for evolution.

    Two requirements for evolution are so important that I will address them briefly here: life must be capable of changing between generations, and life must have existed for sufficient time to allow large amounts of diversity to accumulate. The issue of age has been settled by geologists, astronomers, and physicists, while the mutability of life has been the focus of cutting-edge biological research for the past century. In microbes, beneficial mutations were known to occur on a regular basis by the 1920's, and over the next few decades these mutations were shown to occur before exposure to the environment that selected for the new traits, as posited by Darwin (PDFs are available for two classic papers:Luria and Delbrück (1943) and Lederberg and Lederberg (1952)).

    The dependence of evolutionary theory on these facts puts to lie the claim that evolutionary theory only survives because there in no better explanation for the patterns of biodiversity in the world. There's no excuse for these critics to claim that scientists are incapable of distinguishing between a good explanation and a poor explanation, because anyone familiar with evolutionary theory would know that scientists readily recognize their ignorance regarding the origin of life on earth, despite numerous clues as to how it may have happened.

    [4]Sparks of Life:Darwinism and the Victorian Debates over Spontaneous Generation by James E. Strick.

    Reviewof Sparksof Life by Gregory Radick

    [5]"I believe that animals have descended from at most only four or five progenitors, and plants from an equal or lesser number" --Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, Recapitulation and Conclusions.

    [6]For instance: Interspecies recombination between the penA genes of Neisseria meningitidis and commensal Neisseria species during the emergence of penicillin resistance in N. meningitidis: natural events and laboratory simulation.by Bowler LD, Zhang QY, Riou JY, Spratt BG. in the Journal of Bacteriology.

    [7]Confusions On Evolution, Creationism,And Falsifiability

    [8]






    • Some religious groups see evolution fundamentally as a religious
      or philosophical
      issue, and are happy to find any pseudoscince that might
      strengthen their rhetorical position.







    • Many people adhere to "theistic evolution," the viewpoint that God created the world through evolutionary processes. Polls have indicated that the vast majority of  "evolutionists" in the USA are theistic evolutionists. Examples of this view include the
      following:












      • Catholic theologians have admitted space for evolution in their theology by emphasizing the role of God as the "primary cause" behind the "secondary causes" of natural law, which is the same distinction that Darwin made.


















      • A self-described creationist chemist offers scientific criticisms of ID theory, and a theological criticisms of the tendency to latch onto it.
    Image credit: Pasteur's swan neck flask

    Comments

    Thanks for the mention. You might like also to look at this FAQ on spontaneous generation:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/spontaneous-generation.html

    AdamRetchless
    You're welcome for the mention. Thanks for writing something worth linking to. That article actually turned me on to your blog, which I also appreciate. Finally, thanks for the SponGen FAQ and everything you've written to make science more accessible.
    (computer/software issues after login so I'm not logged on).
    The topic of your blog from a high tech cave man, is seeking for what could disprove evolution.
    A common denominator I find a lot, is creation verses evolution.
    So, as this may be outside the scope of the blog, I would like to ask permission to discus a third possiblity,
    one that is inclusive of both as evedence, to post the hypothosis, with evedence that supports it, and let that stand on its own merit.
    Asking permission to so post (if not, thats okay, as said it is 'outside' (yet inclusive of) the scope of the direction of your blog).
    Tree

    AdamRetchless
    Your proposal sounds much too big to place in the comments of another post. I don't run this website, but I think that anyone is free to post a blog about whatever science topic they wish. There are some limits to what may be posted, but that's up to the editors, and I am not one of them.

    My one concern with your proposal is that it may be too big to conduct in a blog format. There are already plenty of books and websites dedicated to explaining all of the evidence related to evolution.

    Good luck.
    I dont think the site moderators would object, nor even you, but I'd have to post it to be sure how you personally would feel, so I think I'd rather take the safe route, and present it as its own blog (I agree Adam, Thanks!)

    adaptivecomplexity
    Excellent article, Adam.  Evolutionary is so well established, and evolutionary thinking so pervasive (in science anyway), that it can be difficult to remember what the scientific picture looked like before evolution became established, back when spontaneous generation was a widely considered and actively researched possibility.
    Mike
    AdamRetchless
    Thanks. I've only recently discovered how much I enjoy reading about the history of science. It all started when I read about guys like Newton and Galileo, and I got a glimpse of how radically they changed our perception of the world.

    The link that John Wilkins provided above does a good job of showing how the ancients viewed the world so differently than we do -- life was just blooming from every mud puddle!
    adaptivecomplexity
    That is a good link. I've long been a fan of John Wilkins, ever since I first encountered is writings on evolution vs. intelligent design.
    Mike
    Mark Changizi
    Nice piece. Best part: the analogy between Marxist theory and ID. Strange bedfellows!
    AdamRetchless
    Thanks. I was pleased when I noticed that connection.
    I don't think anyone is stumped by IDers as much as stunned by their extreme willful ignorance.

    http://ntrygg.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/trolls-sock-puppets-and-godbots/

    Well said, Nina.
    I am not ignorant. And here's a question for you: If spontanious generation (the idea that life could arise from nonliving matter) was DISPROVEN, why do you still believe that it happened? I want you to go home and summon up all the materials required to build a human being, and then put one together. Assuming that you could, do you have life? No. Now I want you to shock it with as many bolts of electricity as you want, and let me know when it comes to life, Frankenstein. Now assuming you couldn't do it, what makes you think the uncaused explosion of an unknown "cosmic egg" (the big bang) would do any better job, even given the billions of years that you were never there to witness?
    Furthermore, the fossil record disproves evolotion, like how it jumps up form invertebrates to vertebrates without ANY intermediate "links". Just take a look at the geologic chart of earth's history, it jumps from one kind of animal, directly to another. Thus, the theory of punctuated equilibrium is born, which by the way, is biologically impossible. The idea that a rodent would DIRECTLY give birth to a mammal or other kind of animal, is absolutely preposterous. Therefore, you, in fact, are willfully ignorant, not me.
    So have fun believeing that we, intelligent (but apparently ignorant) human beings, came from literally nothing. Ever heard of Biogenesis? It's a PROVEN SCIENTIFIC LAW, and it completely disproves evolution that you believe simply because you read it out of a science book, you uneducated bandwagon.

    Gerhard Adam
    It's a PROVEN SCIENTIFIC LAW, and it completely disproves evolution that you believe simply because you read it out of a science book, you uneducated bandwagon.
    Please stop it.  The cognitive dissonance that you are displaying is giving me a headache.  It's hard to believe you actually started this post with "I am not ignorant".
    You still failed to give a response to the post I just made. You put up no defense, you just complained and disregarded everything I said without a second thought. THAT is willful ignorance. What is your best evidence for evolution? You still won't be able to explain away the issues brought up by biology or genetics. In no way can you possibly explain why, where, when, or how a random speck (that no one knows how it got there) just happened to explode for absolutely no reason and produced life. I honestly don't see how or why you believe that mutations produce new species. FYI: mutations aren't maintained from generation to generation. If I was born without any arms, are each one of my decendents going to be missing arms? No, mutations go away between generations because DNA is capable of fixing itself. If we all had every mutation that every one of our ancestors had, we would all be grotesque, messed up human being that could not possibly sustain ourselves. Because according to you, we are all afflicted by mutations, even though harmful mutations outway beneficial ones a thousand to one. We'd be seriously messed up, or dead. One final question, if we evolved from things like birds, does natural selection/mutation make that bird more human, or just more bird?

    One more point I have to make. 1000 years ago, we were 100% human. 2000 years ago we were still 100% human. 6000 years ago we were STILL 100% human. If we trace this back, THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGE IN SPECIES IN THE PAST FEW THOUSAND YEARS! So what makes you think there was millions of years ago. If we look at this pattern carefully, 1000 years: no change. 6000: no change. What makes you think there would be 10,000 years ago, or even 10,000,000 years ago? It doesn't fit logic!

    Gerhard Adam
    You put up no defense...
    There's nothing to defend.  You don't have enough to even begin to mount an attack.  Your lack of knowledge is quite impressive though.

    You shouldn't use words like "logic" when you don't actually apply that skill. 
    ...you just complained and disregarded everything I said without a second thought. THAT is willful ignorance.
    You're absolutely right and I will do it again.  I don't engage in discussions with people that are willfully ignorant and then simply want to argue from a position of ignorance.  You not only don't know what you're talking about, it is clear that you don't even know what you don't know.
    Imagine that you are walking in the forest with a friend and suddenly you encounter a house that is fully stocked with food, has a heating system, a cooling system, and everything else you would imagine a house having. Now let's say that you ask "where did that house come from?" and your friend replies "oh, it just happened to appear there by chance." You'd think that they were crazy. But after all, the materials existed, the wind could have blown them together and assembled them perfectly into a house. However, you yourself would be crazy to admit to any sort of credibility to that idea. You would probably be inclined to say that someone designed and built that house, correct? Now, we must take into consideration that a cell is far more complex, however you find it plausible to say that the cell and all it's awesome significance and complexity was the direct result of chance. So roughly, this is what you believe: A speck of all the matter in the universe was just sitting there during its infinite past (check again, an infinite past is impossible) and then it just happened to explode one day. Then, planets began to collect into spheres (which, I admit, is plausible). But then something miraculous happened, a cell appeared out of a "soup" of chemicals and over the course of an unfathomably long time became humans. However, this process would have required billions of years (and you claim it does) but there's a problem. The sun is shrinking by a rate of about 2 feet every hour for obvious reasons. That's 48 feet in a day, 17,500 feet in a year, which is about 1.3 miles every year. Now, you would claim that the sun is 4.5 billion years old, but that presents a problem. If the sun is shrinking by 1.3 miles every year, 4.5 billion years ago, it was 5.85 billion miles in diameter. This is not even close to possible, since the earth is only 93 million miles away from the sun's surface. The earth, along with most if not all of the solar system would have been engulfed by the sun. Now, if you believe that the universe is only a few thousand years old, there's no problem at all.

    Gerhard Adam
    In the first place, your house analogy is inappropriate.  Houses and other inanimate objects don't represent processes, so it would be highly unusual to see them spontaneously assemble.  However, if you were looking at other chemical processes, you wouldn't be surprised at all to discover that a fire suddenly arose and consumed the house.  Similarly you wouldn't be surprised to discover that a car that had been sitting there for years, suddenly became rusty.  These are all chemical processes that you wouldn't find unusual in the least.

    Similarly we see the chemical processes that result in things like crystals growing, breaking, and growing.  In addition, we already know that there are such processes as oscillating chemical reactions so that these also occur without elaborate design.

    In addition, we can witness the effect of time on long-term slow processes by considering how objects like the Grand Canyon or the Himalayas formed, so once again, it isn't difficult to see that these also required no design to produce a striking result.

    Your shrinking sun assumption simply isn't true.
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/sun_shrinking.html

    http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sun.html#shrink

    http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/showquestion.asp?faq=4&fldAuto=21
    I had forgotten about spontaneous generation. But that was at one time considered a real possibility. Michael is right. We've become so accustomed to thinking in terms of evolution, that we have forgotten some of these antiquated notions that people used to have.

    Excellent article, Adam.
    rychardemanne
    Just to add to the historical dimension. When genetics was a mere hypothesis one objection was that it was not possible for a discrete entity to exhibit the wide variability in observed characteristics. This coincided with the start of statistics as a branch of mathematics and the theorem that the binomial distribution tends to the normal distribution meant that, at least theoretically, genetics could not be discounted as a hereditary mechanism.
    adaptivecomplexity
    The great work by RA Fischer.  Although discrete genes weren't just a hypothesis - there was evidence for particulate inheritance, from Mendel, whose stuff has been rediscovered by the tie Fisher showed that you could explain quantitative variation with the discrete, particulate genes.
    Mike
    jtwitten
    Actually, Mendel also realized the same, but less formally. It has always galled me that the great man's legacy has been so sullied by his association only with single-gene traits via "Mendelian".
    adaptivecomplexity
    Mendel got shafted in many ways, poor guy.
    Mike
    logicman
    A small observation:

    Spontaneous generation was acceptable to many theologians, but Darwinian inheritance wasn't.

    Genealogical inheritance of both traits and wealth has been in the mainstream of all social systems as far back as recorded history goes.  The Bible is riddled with 'begats'.  Ordinary human powers of observation show inheritance of traits all around us, and no instruments or formal training needed.

    I am left wondering why so many of Darwin's critics were prone to prefer a purely philosophical spontaneous generation theory over an observable inheritance theory.

    Of course, if you wind Darwinian evolution backwards you end up at a primal point which demands spontaneous generation of life.  Anyone who denies a common ancestry for plants and animals ends up with two instances of primal spontaneous generation.  Indeed, a multiplicity of isolated species requires a multiplicity of spontaneous generation events.  With a multiplying of species creation comes a need to explain the source.  Anyone postulating a creator must answer two questions: 1 - "How was the creator designed?" and 2 - "Where can I buy the model kit?"
    rholley
    Anyone postulating a creator must answer two questions: 1 -
    "How was the creator designed?" and 2 - "Where can I buy the model kit?"
    BALONEUM CHLORIDE!

    Elizabeth Ann
    Said to her Nan:
    "Please will you tell me how God began?
    Somebody must have made Him. So
    Who could it be, 'cos I want to know?"
    And Nurse said, "Well!"
    And Ann said, "Well?
    I know you know, and I wish you'd tell."
    And Nurse took pins from her mouth, and said,
    "Now then, darling, it's time for bed."

    Elizabeth Ann
    Had a wonderful plan:
    She would run round the world till she found a man
    Who knew exactly how God began.

    She got up early, she dressed, and ran
    Trying to find an Important Man.
    She ran to London and knocked at the door
    Of the Lord High Doodleum's coach-and-four.
    "Please, sir (if there's anyone in),
    However-and-ever did God begin?"

    But out of the window, large and red,
    Came the Lord High Coachman's face instead.
    And the Lord High Coachman laughed and said:
    "Well, what put that in your quaint little head?"

    Elizabeth Ann went home again
    And took from the ottoman Jennifer Jane.
    "Jenniferjane," said Elizabeth Ann,
    "Tell me at once how God began."
    And Jane, who didn't much care for speaking,
    Replied in her usual way by squeaking.

    What did it mean? Well, to be quite candid,
    I don't know, but Elizabeth Ann did.
    Elizabeth Ann said softly, "Oh!
    Thank you Jennifer. Now I know."
    Robert H. Olley Quondam Physics Department University of Reading England
    Mark-n-PRMantis
    Great poem! Thanks!
    Anyone postulating a creator must answer two questions: 1 - "How was the creator designed?" and 2 - "Where can I buy the model kit?"
    You can even take that further, Patrick. Logically it comes down to a reductio ad absurdum proposition: Either something always existed or something was created out of nothing--each being both just as untenable and incomprehensible as the other.
    logicman
    You can even take that further, Patrick. Logically it comes down to a reductio ad absurdum proposition: Either something always existed or something was created out of nothing--each being both just as untenable and incomprehensible as the other.

    Eric: 'untenable and incomprehensible' - you mean like UK libel laws?  :-)


    Robert: what a wonderful pome. I enjoyed it immensely, being a lover of licherachure.

    And an incorrigible  pranxter!
    AdamRetchless
    Just to make sure that I'm not creating confusion, I wast to point out that I'm using the term "spontaneous generation" in a broader sense than it was historically conceived. I think that "divine generation" would not have been placed in the same category as spontaneous generation. I lumped them together because if divine creation were to happen today, and the deity did not explain what was happening, we would not be able to tell it apart from true spontaneous generation, and they would both have the same consequences for evolutionary theory.
    I feel the russian fox exsp. may have a significant theological implications,

    AdamRetchless
    Do you mean their domesticated foxes?
    Mark-n-PRMantis
    I have always maintained that the one thing Evolutionary Theory - and even Science in general - will never, ever be able to explain is what I call the "Theory of Diminishing Origins" (How was the Universe created?... the BIG Bang... What banged?... spinning gasses... Where did they come from?... an earlier explosion of something... Where did that come from?... and so on... until eventually, you must get to God).
    ... And that it didn't really matter much anyway!
    AdamRetchless
    Stephen Hawking seems to agree:
    It is now generally accepted, that the universe
    evolves according to well defined laws. These laws may have been ordained by
    God, but it seems that He does not intervene in the universe, to break the
    laws. However, until recently, it was thought that these laws did not apply to
    the beginning of the universe. It would be up to God to wind up the clockwork,
    and set the universe going, in any way He wanted. Thus, the present state of
    the universe, would be the result of God's choice of the initial conditions.
    The situation would be very different, however, if something like the no
    boundary proposal were correct. In that case, the laws of physics would hold,
    even at the beginning of the universe. So God would not have the freedom to
    choose the initial conditions. Of course, God would still be free to choose
    the laws that the universe obeyed. However, this may not be much of a choice.
    There may only be a small number of laws, which are self consistent, and which
    lead to complicated beings, like ourselves, who can ask the question: What is
    the nature of God? Even if there is only one, unique set of possible laws, it
    is only a set of equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations,
    and makes a universe for them to govern. Is the ultimate unified theory so
    compelling, that it brings about its own existence. Although Science may solve
    the problem of ~how the universe began, it can not answer the question: why
    does the universe bother to exist? Maybe only God can answer that.

    The theory of evolution has noting to do with the origin of the universe. They are different fields. The theory of evolution deals with the development of life on earth only, not how the universe formed.

    AdamRetchless
    That's a good point that some people seem to overlook (when they equate evolution with a religion). The theory of biological evolution doesn't even directly address the origins of life on earth, though the transition from chemical to biological evolution is probably fairly subtle.
    MikeCrow
    though the transition from chemical to biological evolution is probably fairly subtle.

    What would you call this if not spontaneous generation? I would guess it's not very spontaneous, but still?

    I don't believe either the Universe or life was created, IMO there's no need for it. And while I don't believe in God, If there is a God (or gods), I see no difference between them and Aliens. This goes with Asimov's "Any sufficiently advanced technology......"

    At some point, something started growing, from there evolution takes over.
    I also think at some point, some scientist could make a sterile witches brew grow.

    But to people who believe in ID, where'd the first creator come from?
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    What would you call this if not spontaneous generation? I would guess it's not very spontaneous, but still?
    I know that you know that most times spontaneous generation refers to the full creation of "higher" animals and discrete lifeforms.  While the process you're mentioning probably could be considered "spontaneous generation", it would still be problematic for most that believe otherwise, because it would require evolution to form other more complex forms of life.


    MikeCrow
    In the case of ID'ers, absolutely, But I think we need to be careful with "our" words.

    If a scientist creates life in a test tube, is that proof of intellectual design, or that life is fairly easy to start and we need no designer?
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    I think we can safely discard the intellectual design argument, since we already know that it must also have an origin to be postulated as a cause.  At it's very best, intelligent design merely pushes the problem back to a different level and ultimately answers no questions.

    After all, presumably the "designer" is alive, therefore, if we are a product of a "designer's" efforts, then it still fails to answer the question regarding how the "designer" came to exist in the first place.
    Gerhard Adam
    If a scientist creates life in a test tube...
    As you said, we need to be careful with our words.  So in the interest of that objective, this statement would be false, since obviously life already exists in the scientist.  To be accurate, the best we could claim is that a scientist may have created a new life-form in a test tube.  Perhaps we should be even more precise in indicating that a scientists may have "artificially" created a new "life-form" in a test tube. 

    We need to be sure to exclude those instances of where fertilization can occur in a test tube (which would be the "artificial" part) since clearly only the process of creation will have been changed.  Similarly, we know that life is created all the time, so there is nothing novel about particular life-forms producing similar life-forms.  Therefore, what would be relevant is if it were a new life-form that was being created, using only the principles as known in biology.
    MikeCrow
    Lol.

    Actually, I think this really needs further division.
    Craig Vetter has already taken chemicals, synthesized DNA from scratch, and replaced an existing cells dna. I do not believe it will take long for them to build a cell from scratch. While IMO this is artificially creating new life, it is not a test of bio genesis.

    Bio genesis, is another step removed from this, though it may use techniques developed for the above.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    Actually, I'm not so sure.  I think building the cell is the hard part.  Transferring it's contents is relatively easy by comparison.  Even manipulating genes is relatively simply because the infrastructure is in place and we're effectively "tinkering" with a pre-established process.

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