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    Gods Unvanquished
    By Asha John | November 11th 2009 07:44 PM | 14 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Asha

    I am a writer based in Northern California. I have a BS in Journalism. Two topics I am most interested in - evolutionary basis of religion and living...

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    (Essay 2 in Evolution&Morality Series)

    The atheistic blowback to the overbearing religiosity of the Bush era has been something of a boon for the publishing industry. In an uncertain and weakening economy, they discovered a new profitable genre almost overnight. Clearly, all that oppressive God talk from the Bush administration had antagonized a sizeable group of readers. A few savvy editors were quick to recognize the appetite for books like God Delusion, End of Faith and God is not Great. Books, that took a more or less unapologetically contemptuous view of all things religious and God.

    All that hostility, certainly rolled in the profits and finally gave voice to legions of once sidelined non-believers, but it has also created a new atheistic reputation. Thanks in part to these books and the endless debates the authors are encouraged to participate in, atheists are now seen as angry “haters.” Atheists are being defined in popular culture, not as enlightened intellectuals who have formed an informed opinion through careful reasoning, but more akin to religious fundamentalists, as people who simply hate - all things religious.

    This is troubling, especially since we are at a unique time in history in terms of trends in religious affiliation. According to the Pew Foundation’s report on Religious affiliation in the United States, the group that saw the most significant growth was the unaffiliated.  Add to that the growing number of the loosely affiliated and the lapsers -people who were raised in a particular religion, but as adults do not actively participate -, and we have a large disaffected group. These are people who are disillusioned by religion. They don’t find comfort in it’s the ritual observations. They find it tedious, oppressive and a chore.

    The problem is, though they may be disenchanted with religion itself, they are not necessarily drawn to the no-God message either.

    What, after all is the goal of the atheistic movement, if there is one, anyway? Is it simply to give voice to non-believers? That has certainly been accomplished. But if the goal is to win the hearts and minds of the lapsers, it’s falling short.

    As of now, a large part of the energy in the atheistic movement is being spent on systematically proving the non-existence of God. 

    Yet, saying that God does not exist is an inadequate message for most people. God and religion are not incidental to the lives of people who have been raised in a particular religion. God and religion are an integral part of the minutia of daily moral choices. In the struggle to disprove the existence of God, we forget morality. It is not the almighty’s role as creator that gives him true power over our mortal beings. It is his role as the arbiter of our sense of self-worth based on the moral choices we make that makes him truly invincible.

    Disproving the existence of God is like chopping off the trunk of a tree and thinking you have removed everything, when the largest part of the tree, the roots, still remain. These invisible roots are the real foundation that held up the visible trunk all along, much the same way that a faith in a particular God is really a religion’s justification for its unique brand of morality.

    Think about it for a minute. Sure, you have long given up all affiliation to any religious community, but more likely than not, your ethos still belongs to the religion you were raised in. Perhaps it is Catholicism, Islam or Hinduism. Even if you are an avowed atheist, your reflex judgment of other people’s behavior, very likely contains strong undertones of your religious upbringing.

    In nearly every society, religion continues to inform our private sense of right and wrong. And therefore the kind of human being you believe yourself to be. Are you virtuous or are you vile? So long as the deities the world over retain influence over this question, they are going nowhere.

    To disengage religion from our everyday lives, we have to reconsider the very foundation of moral reasoning. We have to question our understanding of what good and bad behavior is. We need a different kind of moral reasoning for the 21st century. I am not suggesting some incense laced newagey ala carte religion of convenience. What I am suggesting is we take a more grounded approach. I say it is time to reconsider moral choices in scientific terms.  If we looked at morality from a scientific perspective, what would we find?


    References and Further Reading

    Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life: US Religious Landscape Survey

    Comments

    kerrjac
    I say it is time to reconsider moral choices in scientific terms.  If we looked at morality from a scientific perspective, what would we find?
    Interesting question.

    I agree with your overall sentiment - and it matches the notion of paradigm shifts in science: That old paradigms die hard, and only when they are overwhelmed by evidence to the contrary.

    But one qualification I'd offer in viewing morals from a scientific perspective is that in many areas science lags far behind common sense. One doesn't have to be able to define 'the good' in order to act it. In a sense, science has more to learn from studying morals than morals has to gain from taking in science.

    The most feasible approach, I think, would have to be indirect, almost lateral, such as gleaning empirical constructs, documenting the variability and correlates across social animals, and describing how it works in humans. Religion - even if you're skeptical of its core beliefs - you have to admit fits into the human mind like a key. Separating religion from human morals is almost like separating language from human cognition. In a sense, religion is a projection of human morality; the study of morals would benefit greatly from a scientific look at religion.

    There is much learn. But I think that the underlying approach has to be observatory, beginning with the assumption that there is such a 'thing' as morality - it's a sentiment felt among most every human - and its related behaviors are carried out in accordance as best as possible. The minute science replaces morality - and becomes filled with 'should's and 'ought's - its become just that - morality - and is no longer science.
    Like Kerr Jac, I agree with your overall sentiment. As a biologist, it makes sense to me that we have inherited two opposing behavioral traits that are more or less "hardwired" into our nervous systems. The first trait is the ability to fear something and then to engage in violent actions, and the second trait is altruism, basically the willingness to share with others in our particular group and care for one another. Both traits would seem to have had value as fitness factors in early human evolution, and it is the clash of the two traits that make human existence so confusing, and so interesting.
    Perhaps as a counter to the emerging militant atheist movement that you describe so well, there is one older social organization that promotes altruism without religion. These are the Humanists, and I think you would enjoy reading their literature. Every year at their national meeting they name a Humanist of the year, someone they think best exemplifies the ideals of humanism. In the past Ed Wilson was honored, and this year it was PZ Meyers.

    rholley
    this year it was PZ Meyers.
    You mean the Mad Mullah of Minnesota?  He who incites hordes of dervishes with his bin Laden-like pronouncements on the Pharyngula website, leading them to attack anyone who has blasphemed anything he holds sacred (e.g. the Democratic Party, Evolution ....)
    Robert H. Olley Quondam Physics Department University of Reading England
    Becky Jungbauer
    Mad Mullah of Minnesota - love it!
    jtwitten
    Is there a modified Godwin's Law in which Bin Laden replaces Hitler?

    I'm as critical of Ayatollah Myers and his followers (the technical term is PZealots) as anyone, who isn't a hyperoffended theist. I don't like their tactics or logic. There is, however, a huge difference between encouraging your hordes to be annoying twats and actively encouraging physical violence.

    Let's keep some perspective.
    rholley
    Let's keep some perspective.
    Right folks!  Get ready for a module on Projective Geometry!
    Robert H. Olley Quondam Physics Department University of Reading England
    Jack Vermillion

    Religion and morality? The interesting question might be what happens to both when you strip out the emotional content.  Truly remove it.  How does the mind construct a coherent self at any one point in time then, without the emotion and its byproduct, religion? 


    The assumption, by a scientist might be that rational thought governs the group.  But since no mind connects to any other mind and all experience is individual, then rationality resides with each alone.   Morality is just a manifestation of group dynamics in that view.  What is the difference between that dynamic in a pure rational world vs. an emotional/religious world?  The eternal question.

    BTW, science is not the rational model to compare because it is full of emotion, as much so a religion sometimes.  Exampe: the cult of anthropogenic global warming with its environmental morality framework and all the emotion that stirs up with its own versions of true believers and atheists.

    rholley
    we have to reconsider the very foundation of moral reasoning. We have to question our understanding of what good and bad behavior is. We need a different kind of moral reasoning for the 21st century.
    The prospect fills me with gloom, for the following reason.

    I think every attempt to find a set of axioms on which we can build up a complete morality is bound to run into a similar problem to that moved Whitehead and Russell to attempt its solution with the Principia MathematicaRussell's paradox effectively showed that any mathematical system is bound to contain a "hole".  How much more dire a with system that touches the core of what it means to be human?

    I'm not wanting to shoo you away from the evolutionary aspect.  Studies of non-human critturs may reveal much of the fabric out of which our moral sense is built.  One instance is that I seem to remember Marc Bekoff observing a parallel difference between what we would call "love" and "lust" in whales.  (C.S.Lewis, in The Four Loves, refers to these as Eros and Venus.)
    I am not suggesting some incense laced newagey a la carte religion of convenience.
    For political reasons, the Romans tried that with Emperor worship, but with some rather nasty sanctions for non-participants.  Any religion that's there for a purpose has a built-in flaw.  If I put it somewhat theologically, no way did the Gods like all those grotty little Caesars trying to gate-crash the party on Mount Olympus.
    Robert H. Olley Quondam Physics Department University of Reading England
    Gerhard Adam
    There's an awful lot of issues here that need to be explored in more detail.

    In the first place, the concept of morality (regardless of its origins) doesn't necessarily result in moral behavior, so what one believes and how one acts don't necessarily agree.

    Science can never develop a moral perspective because science doesn't concern itself with good or bad, but with what works.  Religion has used the "argument from authority" position to set down a set of values that people can adhere to.  This automatically places it beyond questioning or analysis.   Now while people may question the authority of the church with certain interpretations and others may well reach similar conclusions on their own, the net result is the same.

    Part of the problem is that there is no perfect justice in the world.  Therefore to avoid perpetual conflicts over perceived wrongs, the moral structure dictates a specific behavior that is to be followed without exception (even if one has been wronged).  In addition, religion adds the concept that wrong-doers will be punished at some later point so that justice will ultimately be served.

    These are arguments that cannot logically be made because they are not rational.  This isn't intended to say that they are stupid, but rather that logic or rationality is insufficient to the task of providing solutions to such problems.

    Similarly, religion is often the basis for generating hope and perserverance in situations that may be dire.  When someone is suffering or at extreme risk, assessing probabilities isn't the most sensible approach to dealing with such problems.  A soldier doesn't need to know the probability of being shot, instead he may well adopt the "I won't die until it's my time" attitude.  While not rational, it prevents the crippling indecisions that would plague us without it.

    Without getting too side-tracked, regardless of whether religion exists or not, humans will always maintain a belief system that allows them to define their place in the world and how they should behave in it.  This will not be based on science or logic, but only on what works for them.  So, while religion and churches are attempts to formalize such beliefs, the point is that humans will create them regardless of whatever else may present itself.  Whether this should include a diety or not is equally irrelevant, since there is no human being alive that doesn't have at least some beliefs that cannot be proven.
    Whew! I would not have guessed that my single mention of PZ Myers would be the occasion of such outbursts! Mad Mullah? Bin Laden-like? Ayatollah Myers? My impression is that he is a basically nice guy who has decided to say out loud what many others often think, but keep to themselves. That's why he's so much fun to read, but I confess to feeling a little guilty, thinking that perhaps this is the same pleasure our far-right brethren get out of listening to Limbaugh, Palin or Beck. I would like to think that the real PZ Myers can be found in the carefully worded speech he presented when he accepted Humanist of the Year award.
    Question for Robert and Josh: Does Myers really encourage his hordes with Bin Laden-like pronouncements to be annoying twats? Maybe I'm missing something. I thought he was just an Associate Professor of Biology.

    rholley
    Does Myers really encourage his hordes with Bin Laden-like pronouncements to be annoying twats?
    Someone I know was targeted by Taliban (Arabic for "students", though I can't be sure they all were) following up Phatwa from PZ.  Not only that, but PZ continued to target this friend when he made some (albeit probably silly) statements in another field which should have been outside the Myers sphere of reference.

    I won't identify the friend, for obvious reasons.  But I would welcome a link to the carefully worded speech.
    Robert H. Olley Quondam Physics Department University of Reading England
    rholley
    I'd like to follow the animal track a bit further.  I do think that our greatly extended knowledge of the common base we share with our furry friends (though sometimes I get so torpid that I would include the reptilian) must not be left out of the discussion.

    I hope I won't be branded a deviationist, but today I read a title on Live Science that caught my eye.

    Critics Challenge 'Dog Whisperer' Methods

    Now the Dog Whisperer is a programme I have watched a lot, and Cesar is all for rules, boundaries, and limitations. But he has his critics. If you care to read the article, can any of you guess how much is science and how much is New York left-liberal bias?

    I am not putting forward a case for the "right". Alas, I am one of those who sees both sides, and cannot come to a decision.  But when people argue solely from one point of view, I am reminded of a joke a Saudi friend told me, many years ago:

    A man took some cloth to a one-eyed tailor to make him a jacket.  When he returned to try it on, he found it mis-shapen and uncomfortable.

    "Do you call this a jacket!" he exclaimed.  "I wish that both your eyes were equal!"
    Robert H. Olley Quondam Physics Department University of Reading England
    Gerhard Adam
    Yes, I read that article too. 

    It seems obvious that both techniques have pros and cons, and it would be somewhat foolish to argue that only one approach can work.

    However, one of the "science" quotes really has me baffled:
    But as Dave Mech, an expert on wolf behavior at the University of Minnesota, points out, the early wolf research — much of it his own — was done on animals living in captivity.
    ... I'm not clear on what they think has changed with dogs as pets?  Is this somehow supposed to mean that dogs are not living in captivity?
    Robert, in your 15:48 post, you asked for a link to the Myers speech -- here it is:

    http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/09_nov_dec/Myers.html