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    About Sam Harris’ Claim That Science Can Answer Moral Questions
    By Massimo Pigliucci | April 22nd 2010 12:26 PM | 21 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Massimo

    Massimo Pigliucci is Professor of Philosophy at the City University of New York.

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    The buzz in secular circles lately has been about a TED talk by Sam Harris, the author of The End of Faith, and Letters to a Christian Nation.

    The title of Harris’ talk is “Science can answer moral questions,” and you just know that as a former scientist and currently a philosopher, I simply have to comment on it.


    As it turns out, there is much that Harris and I agree on, but I think his main target is actually moral relativism, and that he would get more mileage out of allying himself with philosophy (not to the exclusion of science), rather than taking what appears to be the same misguided scientistic attitude that Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne have come to embody so well. But let us start with a summary of Harris’ arguments, with extensive quotations from the lecture, proceeding then to my commentary.



    Harris begins with a rather startling claim: “The separation between science and human values is an illusion,” adding “facts and values seem to belong to different spheres [but] This is quite clearly untrue. Values are a certain kind of facts. They are facts about the well beings of conscious creatures.” This is a frontal assault on what in philosophy is known as the naturalistic fallacy, the idea — introduced by David Hume — that one cannot directly derive values (what ought to be) from facts (what is). As Hume famously put it in A Treatise of Human Nature:

    “In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remark’d, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary ways of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when all of a sudden I am surpriz’d to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, ‘tis necessary that it shou’d be observ’d and explain’d; and at the same time that a reason should be given; for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it.”

    Harris justifies his position by asking his audience to consider under what circumstances we feel that we have moral obligations: “Why is it that we don’t have ethical obligations toward rocks? ... Because we don’t think that rocks can suffer. ... [talking then about insects having a very limited inner life] This is a factual claim, this is something we could be right or wrong about.” He continues: “If culture changes us, it changes us by changing our brains. And therefore whatever cultural variation there is in the way human beings flourish can at least in principle be understood in the context of a maturing science of the mind,” implying that neurobiology — the field in which he is getting a doctoral degree — will soon be the key to moral discourse.

    Harris then introduces the idea of a “moral landscape” describing the sort of ethical decisions that further or hinder human wellbeing, and just couldn’t help himself sneaking in some mystical fluff (he has a weak spot for Buddhism and transcendental meditation), suggesting that perhaps one way to access the structure of the moral landscape is by way of mystical experiences. Whatever.

    The talk at this point takes a sharp turn, where Harris aims his fire at moral relativism, though he never actually mentions the term: “Just admitting that there are right and wrong answers to the question of how humans flourish will change the way we talk about morality.” Taking the example of several States in the US that allow corporal punishment of children, he asks: “Is it a good idea, generally speaking, to subject children to pain, and violence, and public humiliation as a way of encouraging healthy emotional development and good behavior?”

    He then makes an analogy between human flourishing and physical health to show that though both are complex and varied, we can still make sense of the idea of “health” and act on it. Harris also makes the point that even if it turns out that there are “many peaks on the moral landscape,” i.e. many ways to flourish, this doesn't undermine the idea of an objective assessment of moral claims.

    Another example Harris introduces is that of Muslim women who have to cover their body completely so as not to offend their alleged god, regarding which Harris rhetorically comments that “it is the position, generally speaking, of our intellectual community, that we might not like this ... [but] who are we to say that the proud denizens of an ancient culture are wrong to force their wives and daughters to live in cloth bags?” As he correctly points out, we do in fact know a lot about human wellbeing and how it is affected by repressive cultural practices, so that we can indeed be judgmental about such practices.

    The final argument of the talk is supposed to reinforce the analogy between moral and scientific expertise, both of which are non-arbitrary: “Most Western intellectuals ... say, well, there is nothing for the Dalai Lama to be really right about or for [serial rapist and killer] Ted Bundy to be really wrong about. ... [One] likes chocolate, [the other] likes vanilla. ... Notice that we don't do this in science,” at which point Harris proceeds to compare differences of opinions about an expert in string theory and himself, claiming that the expert gets the right of way quaexpert. “This is just the point, ok, whenever we are talking about facts, certain opinions must be excluded. ... How have we convinced ourselves that in the moral sphere there is no such thing as moral expertise?”

    Let me start my commentary by pointing out that I do agree with Harris’ criticism of moral relativism, for much the same reasons that he advances. However, Harris must be living in a semi-parallel universe if he is convinced that “most Western intellectuals” have no problem with burkas, female genital mutilation, beheadings of “blasphemers” and the like. Perhaps a small number of hyper-politically correct and culturally neutral postmodern cuckoos do subscribe to that notion, but it is hardly “the position, generally speaking, of our intellectual community.”

    The analogy between physical health and wellbeing, or flourishing (a term borrowed from the philosophical tradition of virtue ethics, which traces back to Aristotle) is convincing, but not new: it is exactly the way neo-Aristotelian philosophers defend the idea that although the notion of flourishing is complex and multifarious, it is not in fact either arbitrary or useless. The same goes for Harris’ argument that even if there are multiple peaks on the “moral landscape” that does not preclude developing an objective notion of morality. Again, this is an argument well known in moral philosophy.

    Where I begin to diverge from Harris is when he talks about moral propositions as a particular kind of empirical facts. First off, as I pointed out before on this blog, to say that something is objectively true is not the same as to say that it is a fact, an equivalence strangely implied by Harris’ talk. There clearly are notions that are objectively true — such as mathematical theorems — but that in no meaningful sense are “facts.” Also, for a notion to be objectively true does not mean that said notion is also universal: morality applies only to human beings and other relevantly self-aware social beings, not to rocks, plants, ants, or other solar systems (unless they are inhabited by self-aware social beings), although on this latter point Harris seems to agree with me.

    Let us also set aside another often controversial point in these debates: that of the role of emotions in ethical judgment. As Hume famously pointed out in his Treatise of Human Nature, “It is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger,” meaning that no matter what logic tells us, we are motivated to act only if we are endowed with certain emotional reactions against, say, injustice. These emotions are a complex result of our evolutionary history and our cultural evolution, but they do not enter into the picture sketched by Harris, so we will just mention the issue and move on.

    The crux of the disagreement, then, is embodied in the title of Harris' talk: in what sense can science answer (as opposed to inform) ethical questions? Let me take one of Harris’ examples, the (highly questionable) legality of corporal punishment of children in several US States. Harris rhetorically asks whether we really think that hitting children will improve their school performance or good behavior. But that isn’t the point at all. What if it did? What if a scientific study showed that indeed, hitting children does have a measurable effect on improving those desirable traits? Harris would then have to concede that corporal punishment is moral, but somehow I doubt he would. AndI certainly wouldn’t, because my moral intuition (yes, that’s what I’m going to call it, deal with it) tells me that purposefully inflicting pain on children is wrong, regardless of whatever the empirical evidence says.

    We can now turn to the wearing of burkas, another issue where Harris and I agree on the substance (it is wrong to force women to “live in cloth bags”), but for different reasons. My position is that I think it immoral for a society to impose that degree of restriction on individual choices (a restriction that, as Harris points out, is backed up by the threat of force and even of capital punishment). That is because as a philosopher inclined towards virtue ethics I think individual and societal flourishing ought to be interconnected in a positive way, not in the negative one implemented in so many Muslim societies.

    But Harris has to justify why he poses individual women’s wellbeing ahead of societal wellbeing, or even of the wellbeing of the families (and especially the males) of those women. Again, what if an empirical study were to show that — on balance — societies with restrictive rules about women’s attire and behavior flourish better, qua societies, than their more liberal counterparts in the West? Would that make forcing women to wear burkas morally right? I don’t think so.

    These examples could be joined by many others making the same point: if we let empirical facts decide what is right and what is wrong, then new scientific findings may very well “demonstrate” that things like slavery, corporal punishment, repression of gays, limited freedom of women, and so on, are “better” and therefore more moral than liberal-progressive types such as Harris and myself would be ready to concede. The difference is that I wouldn’t have a problem rejecting such findings — just as I don’t have a problem condemning social Darwinism and eugenics — but Harris would find himself in a bind. Indeed, he seems to be making a categorical mistake: what he callsvalues are instead empirical facts about how to achieve human wellbeing. But why value individual human wellbeing, or the wellbeing of self-aware organisms, to begin with? Facts are irrelevant to that question.

    Of course, I am in complete agreement that our sense of morality is an instinct that derives from our biological history, and that our moral reasoning is carried out by certain areas of the brain. But neither of these conclusions make evolutionary biology or neurobiology arbiters of moral decision making. Of course we do moral reasoning with the brain, just like we solve mathematical problems with the brain. Is Harris going to suggest that neurobiology will supersede mathematics? Of course our basic sense of morality has its roots in having evolved as social primates, but so do xenophobia, homophobia, and a bunch of other human characteristics that are not moral and that we don’t want to encourage.

    So, how do we ground moral reasoning? This is the province of a whole area of inquiry known as metaethics, and I suggest that Harris would benefit from reading about it. Ultimately, ethics is a way of thinking about the human (and other relevantly similar organisms) condition. Just as we don’t need a good answer to the question of where mathematics comes from to engage in mathematical reasoning, so it is not very productive to keep asking philosophers for “the ultimate foundations” of what they do (if this sounds like an easy way out to you, remember that neither math nor science itself have self-justifiable foundations). A much more productive line of inquiry, it seems to me, is to combine the best of what both philosophy and science can offer in our struggle to make our world as just and moral as possible.

    Comments

    Sounds to me like Harris has gotten himself into the same kind of dreadful mess as Kant did when he tried to establish an a priori system of morality in the Metaphysics of Morals. I too do not adhere to moral relativism. But at the same time, I recognize that emotions (or intuition, if you prefer) play a necessary and critical role for us in determining what is moral and what is not as much as reason does.



    “Most Western intellectuals ... say, well, there is nothing for the Dalai Lama to be really right about or for [serial rapist and killer] Ted Bundy to be really wrong about. ... [One] likes chocolate, [the other] likes vanilla. ... Notice that we don't do this in science,” at which point Harris proceeds to compare differences of opinions about an expert in string theory and himself, claiming that the expert gets the right of way quaexpert. “This is just the point, ok, whenever we are talking about facts, certain opinions must be excluded. ... How have we convinced ourselves that in the moral sphere there is no such thing as moral expertise?”


    Even here Harris is committing a logical fallacy, i.e., the fallacy of appealing to authority. The tacit assumption being made here, i.e., to merely accept someone's assertions as facts or true statements based solely on their "expertise", even in science, is unacceptable. Expertise is no guarantee against being dead wrong--either in science or in moral judgments! Such thinking is what leads to the kind of dogmatism that kept the Copernican revolution from happening centuries before it did, i.e., simply because of the "authority" of Aristotelian philosophy.

    You have made the point well in your article, Massimo that while emotions (or intuition) and reason are both necessary for moral judgments, neither alone are sufficient. And I agree with your analysis and conclusions wholeheartedly and can find no fault in your arguments.
    Wonderful article! To me reason has nothing to do with morality. Morality deals with the subjective and reason deals with the objective.

    What does have a self-justification foundation?

    Becky Jungbauer
    Hi Massimo - thanks for the interesting article. I have both of the Harris books you mention and I find much that recommends him to me. This argument, however, doesn't convince me.

    I don't have the expertise to speak eloquently about philosophy, so my naivete will shine through here. In a previous post, which you reference above, your friend Julia notes that “science can tell me that if I want to make other people happier, then treating them in certain ways — giving them health, freedom, and so on —
    will accomplish that goal. But science can't tell me whether making other people happier should be my goal.” You said later in that post that morality (for you) is neither arbitrary nor absolute, and I agree - isn't the scientific method absolute (you get x or y, depending on the study)? If it is, and morality is neither one nor the other, then science cannot answer moral questions (but perhaps inform them), correct? Is that somewhat akin to what you are saying in this article?

    You also said in response to Julia's comment above from the previous post that ethics is not about what individuals want, it is about the species as a whole. But science isn't always about the species as a whole, nor it is always about individuals. Actually, I'd argue (at least in the clinical research sense) that it's much more skewed toward individuals or a very select population, instead of generalizable findings that can be applied to a society at large. But occasionally there are huge studies that attempt to characterize a heterogenous population (e.g. the Framingham Heart Study). In the same fashion, can ethics be skewed toward the species as a whole, but also sometimes individual? Yet if that were the case, would that be heading down the path toward relativism?

    (Sorry if this is bungled or silly in any way.)
    Gerhard Adam
    Becky, you make some very good points. 

    I would go a step further and suggest that attempting to use science answer moral questions is like attempting to assign a direction to evolution.  From a scientific perspective we have to assume that the majority of the cultures in existence clearly conveyed some advantage to its practitioners since they exist today.  Failed cultures went extinct just as various species of the past.

    Clearly we can't conclude that every culture that survived has something resembling the "best" values or culture, any more than we can argue that every biological adaptation is necessarily the "best".  Much like evolutionary psychology, we don't necessarily know why particular customs or beliefs surfaced and what role (if any) they played in ensuring the survival of a particular culture.  To reduce it simply to religion begs the question, since there is no evidence to suggest that religion pre-dated cultural values, so in all likelihood religion is as much a product of culture as anything else is.

    Even with the examples in the article, one would be hard pressed to argue that one method is better than another.  Consider the following quote:
    ... because my moral intuition (yes, that’s what I’m going to call it, deal with it) tells me that purposefully inflicting pain on children is wrong, regardless of whatever the empirical evidence says.
    In the first place, it would be helpful to determine what qualifies as a child.  We don't seem to mind punishing them with criminal detention and even trying them as adults at quite young ages.  We recognize that scientifically they aren't mature enough to make adult decisions, and yet we presume that they are sufficiently mature to accept adult responsibility for their actions.

    Often pain is inflicted as much by indifference and psychological treatment as it is physically, so how does one assess it?  More importantly, can anyone really suggest that physical punishment is not effective in some cases?  or the degree of physical punishment?  After all, it seems a convincing argument can be made that small amounts of physical pain are precisely what is necessary to teach important lessons.  Animals certainly engage in the activity,so why not humans?  Isn't it better to inflict a small dose of controlled pain against the possibility of a greater pain, injury, or even death if a lesson isn't learned?

    It should give anyone pause to consider that what is moral today may have been immoral 100 years ago, and vice versa.  To suggest otherwise implies not only that there is a "right" way to live, but consequently a "right"way to think.  To then argue that someone that disagrees is "immoral" is no better than the same religious beliefs that profess exactly the same thing.
    Becky Jungbauer
    After all, it seems a convincing argument can be made that small amounts of physical pain are precisely what is necessary to teach important lessons.
    True - touching a hot stove will teach you not to do that again! Again this brings up intent - instructional, accidental, to purposefully and cruelly inflict pain?
    Gerhard Adam
    ... instructional, accidental, to purposefully and cruelly inflict pain?
    Cruelty never has a purpose, since by definition, it is something that is unnecessary and is largely intended to benefit the individual inflicting the pain.  It should also be clear that no punishment can be used indiscriminately since it's effectiveness will diminish with frequency and appropriateness (or lack thereof).
    You are one of the few christians I have ever found rational. Um, this why I am starting the process of A Stranger In A Strange Land to induct into the Mytheral Star which is part of the international organization called The Druid Network...which is the only religion that I am excited about exploring. Unfortunately, I have to say that in a bible christian school that is still operating in town, that as a seventh grader who was raised by christian people and had a female pastor that was dumped all over when I told Baptist Female Biology teacher that I wanted to be a pastor. Which was the best job I could think of at that time because I wanted to help people and be moral. However, after she used my friend and her mother to harass me with nonsensical verse in Second Timothy. Which is letter to or from Timothy from somebody not labeled Jesus, I am sure, because it is really short. I hope that you come to Lancaster/Palmdale, we are in the California Bible Belt. They need some guidance they won't listen...um, they will label me a cult member even though I am not, or a satanist because don't believe in the second coming saving world. We have a really big performing arts center which you could sell if marketed right...and I would be immensely grateful.

    Hank
    You are one of the few christians I have ever found rational. 
    If Massimo is Christian, I am a Chinese jet pilot.   On a science site that skews, like academia, toward progressive politics and atheism, Massimo is the uber-version of both those.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    It's funny to me that whole thing about wearing the magic special clothes that demonstrate your modesty by flaunting it - but also that the omnipotent god's awareness of women's offensive nakeness is somehow blocked? deities thwarted by cloth sack?

    I wonder if the believers ever consider how much their claims about their deities reveal really insecure, petty and childishly control freak behaviour.

    Larry Arnold
    The question to me, however is whether science in itself can separate itself from the moral effects of that science. That is to say that any scientific study has outcomes that may not have been adequately considered and that the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake can never be considered to be neutral. To me that is the meaning of metaethics, not some philosophical construct so much as real and meaningful question we have to deal with.

    Scientists are individuals, and the practice of whatever they do is governed by individual propensities whether they are aware of it or not. There are as we ought to know bad scientists and pseudo scientists who practice a kind of latter day alchemy with words in dressing up a poor study as being an important one, particularly when there is snake oil to be sold and a profit to be made.

    Science has no morality in itself, but scientists do. To believe that the endeavour of science can solve lifes moral problems is to me absurd, it is not even rational at all because it is a belief that there is some eternal truth in science equivalent to the platonic belief in the reality of numbers beyond what we make of them.

    Of course there is nothing new under the sun, it's just dressing up utilitarianism in new clothes.

    As for owing an ethical duty towards rocks, why of course we do, we owe an ethical duty in respect of both animate and inanimate objects because our survival depends upon them. The rock won't feel the pain, but of course you mine in areas where it is unsustainable, then sooner or later you will.
    I have question for you Lawrence...do have any theory that passing emotions through rocks and could be possible without metal, I know that the theory of clairvoyance requires metal, or maybe the rocks are having elements performing the same function.

    It is unlikely that science can answer moral questions, but I would consider science in trying to answer meta-ethical questions, as you correctly name them.

    First and foremost: what is ethics? A scientific answer could be: a social tool, evolved in ages, useful to allow and rule community life, which has a distinct darwinian value in itself. Arguably, what you call "moral istincts" are the final fruit of this evolution. A scientific approach should tell us there is nothing metaphysics in ethics.

    Second: are moral instincts "right"? If evolution were the only critierion for ethics, we should say 'yes' by definition. But human associated life evolves far faster than any genetic or cultural selection by trial-and-error can cope with; moral insticts can be, must be, often wrong. Therefore, we need some alternative tool to produce moral judgement. That's where philosophy comes in; but keeping in mind that the raison d'etre of ethics is allowing human associated life, and not maximizing some trascendental or new-ageish "Good".

    Third: the resulting ethics should be consistent with the view we have about associated life. If one, as myself, adheres to some form of ideal contractualism, then ethics must be based on the freedom of individuals to choose and pursue their own good, and must be communicable and debatable between peers. It must pursue, in a word, a rational conciliation of possibly conflicting interests. This also implies the ability to borrow results from science, which is the discipline for rationally investigating facts.

    Sorry for the unintended "boldness" of my post. These tags drive me crazy.

    I think that science or medical ethics are a moral code.

    But I don't think that we need to have any outside authority for what moral is.

    We have evolved to have morals - co-operation and not harming people is the basis for staying in the group and getting the benefits of that.

    Gerhard Adam
    ... co-operation and not harming people is the basis for staying in the group...
    That's absolutely true, but our problem is that the groups have become too large and offer anonymity to the abusers.  This is precisely why we have many of the problems we have, whether it be street gangs or serial killers.  Every one of those is a direct phenomenon of too large a group which offers the opportunity to be invisible, or to create smaller subgroups which exist below the radar or control of the larger groups.

    MarshallBarnes
    I debated this presentation by Harris over at IEET. Since then, TED talks, by Michaels Specter and Shermer, have gotten me so hacked off, I'm starting my own blog elsewhere whose sole purpose is to refute and counter strike some of these ideas that are being promoted, just as forcefully as they are being presented.
    And no, I'm not discussing it any further here... 
    Fred Pauser
    Massimo wrote:



    Harris begins with a rather startling claim: “The separation between science and human values is an illusion,” adding “facts and values seem to belong to different spheres [but] This is quite clearly untrue. Values are a certain kind of facts. They are facts about the well beings of conscious creatures.” This is a frontal assault on what in philosophy is known as the naturalistic fallacy, the idea — introduced by David Hume — that one cannot directly derive values (what ought to be) from facts (what is).




    I have long regarded the "naturalistic fallacy" to be a fallacy itself! If we do not derive our morals/values from what is, then what do we derive them from? I agree with others here that emotions/intuition play a major role in the formation of our values. But to the extent that humans largely share intuitive or emotional reactions to certain situations, we are dealing with what is, and from that we tend to derive our morality.



    So, how do we ground moral reasoning?...

    Just as we don’t need a good answer to the question of where mathematics comes from to engage in mathematical reasoning, so it is not very productive to keep asking philosophers for “the ultimate foundations” of what they do (if this sounds like an easy way out to you, remember that neither math nor science itself have self-justifiable foundations).




    Like Patrick, I'm a "big picture" sort of guy. The big picture of evolution shows me a primary directionality toward increasing the capabilities of life. Science has certainly enabled humanity to increase and advance its capabilities. So the overall primary direction of evolution (and the fact that we apparently live in a cause-and-effect universe) is the foundation of science in my view.



    The foundation of morality lies in a better understanding of the pleasure/pain principle. We do not choose what causes us pleasure/satisfaction or pain -- rather our biology teaches us. Neurobiologist Antonio Damasio has written quite a bit on this topic. Clearly we are interconnected. Our individual well-being depends largely on how well we interact and cooperate for the good of the whole. Until we learn more about our basic nature, the old Golden Rule is probably still our best guide for moral behavior in many situations.


    Gerhard Adam
    I don't really think that morality is nearly as complicated as it is presented.  Clearly most of the "higher" social animals display a sense of what is considered right or wrong behavior within the group.  While this certainly doesn't rise to the level of morality it does denote that there is something considered proper behavior.

    When we extend the human ability with language and the unprecedented expansion of social groups in humans, we can begin to see that this really represents a special case of the "proper" behavior.

    When a social group becomes too large, then it is insufficient to rely solely on small group dynamics to determine how people should interact, so setting an expectation of behavior becomes fundamental to maintaining group cohesion.  It's similar to the idea of the business franchise (i.e. McDonald's).  No matter where one travels, when the franchise is present, there is a certain expectation of what can be obtained (i.e. Big Mac).  It removes the uncertainty of what one might get if they went to a local establishment.

    Similarly, the "Golden Rule" is simply articulating what we should expect from members of our same social group, even though we may never have encountered them before.  Even the concept of how we treat others is based on the idea that we all share the same perspectives regarding proper treatment.  This wouldn't work across cultures, but then morality rarely extends to such an extreme.  The objective of moral behavior then is to promote trust in circumstances where it is not warranted (under normal biological circumstances).  The more we perceive someone to be moral, the greater the likelihood that we can trust them despite having no personal experience to draw that conclusion.

    This would lead me to conclude that we humans have a moral code, because we're probably the only species that must routinely engage with strangers as part of our social groups.  Therefore, morality is a means by which such proper behaviors are passed between generations.  In consequence, immoral behavior is any action that acts against group cohesion by promoting distrust.
    Wes D. Sturdevant
    this is great topic for me, I'm a strict utilitarian myself so far but watching a series of lectures from Harvard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBdfcR-8hEY that I am finding very interesting although I'm only now on 4 i think it is out i think 11 lectures, not because I find them at all boring just time restraints lately.  I only had time to read the article and gotta go soon, but thought I'd add what people thought about utilitarianism for it being an objective morality system based on logical criteria not just emotions but a consequential philosophy of utility deciding what is right or wrong.  Personally I've yet to find a situation that I don't agree with this kind of decision making, it doesn't go with emotions, nor does it go by a 4,000-10,000 book of the dead later known as the 10 commandments or by law but on utility or the betterment of the society and of human beings giving all humans equality in it's philosophy.  If it's been discussed already here pardon me.  I've not had time to read through but a few posts but will return later today to read more on what has been said. And response to utilitarinism and see if anyone can challenge me and Utilitarianism in a situation that i would be forced to say i don't agree with the decision that Utilitarianism would conclude.  It seems to me a system based pretty much on logic which to me is a science as Sam Harris was supposedly trying to argue for.  Wasn't able to watch it without sound on my desktop but will definitely watch on my laptop later especially being somewhat a fan of Harris agreeing with much of his ideas.  Certainly a man I respect for his intellect and courage to stand up against public opinion to fight for what he believes in, whether I totally agree with or not is irrelevant to that.  Now I see I've spent enough time writing I could have went ahead and read the rest of the posts lol.  I'll return later to check this article out and see if i get responses to this post.
    Fred Pauser wrote: I have long regarded the "naturalistic fallacy" to be a fallacy itself! If we do not derive our morals/values from what is, then what do we derive them from?

    I think you misunderstand the naturalistic fallacy. Generally nobody is denying that we get our values from nature. That's the "is" of the is-ought problem. I value sex! That's my nature. Moral statements which go beyond describing our values to saying what they out to be are a different category of statement; namely, the category that runs headlong into the naturalistic fallacy.

    Sam Harris talking about morality? What is morality? Just that which leads to the well being of the majority? According to him, it is wholly justifiable to murder people for their beliefs, to torture people and to engage in nuclear strikes. So if the well being of the majority is served by the mass murder of certain people, so long as they are not the majority, it is wholly moral since it would lead to the well being of the majority. There is no way, then, to claim eugenics or genocide to be immoral if they are done in the name of the well being of the majority; which is something Hitler did.