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    Big Arctic Ice Thaw coming this summer
    By Craig Dillon | February 12th 2011 05:31 PM | 43 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Craig

    A lay person with interests in paleontology, climatology, societies, development and trends of modern civilization. As skeptic, I don't accept scientific...

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    The Arctic Ice is preparing itself for a large reduction in sea ice area this summer. The summer of 2007 surprised climatologists when a summer low in ice area was set at about 3 million sqkm. To put that in perspective, in the early 1980's, the Arctic sea ice would melt back to an area around 5 mil sqkm. The current ice coverage is 1.1 mil sq km less than what it should be, and should be setting a record low for winter ice area this winter.

    More importantly though, the Cryosphere Today website by the University of Illinois shows that the current midwinter ice cap has not completely frozen over its coverage area. The presentation of the ice cap is color coded indicating the percentage of ice coverage in its area. The colors show that 5% and 10% of much of the ice covered area is actually open water. This means that the ice cap is susceptible to a large reduction in sea ice area when the thawing begins this March.

    What does this mean? Climate deniers will say "Hey, the Arctic ice is already in the ocean, so its melting does not contribute to sea level rise", as if they discovered something important. The importance of the loss of sea ice is twofold - first, it shows undeniable evidence of global warming, and second, it reduces albedo. Albedo is the reflection of the sun's rays and energy into space. The albedo effects of polar ice caps keep the earth colder than it would be otherwise.

    Since 2007, the Kara, Leptev, East Siberian, Chuchki, and Beaufort seas of the Arctic Ocean have gone ice free each summer. So, those seas are already absorbing sunlight each summer during the long days that would have been reflected to space. This will raise their temperatures. The Siberian, Kara, Leptev, and Chuchki seas overlie the siberian continental shelf. These seas are shallow, only about 150 deep or so. At the bottom lie huge deposits of methane clathrates. Methane is already be released in plumes in the Siberian Sea, and as the waters warm, these plumes will only increase in volume and extent. Another point of interest is Baffin Bay to the west of Greenland. Normally, it totally freezes over each winter.

    This winter, a finger of open ocean is still there, in February, that extends far north, almost to Melville Bay. I suspect that Baffin Bay will thaw sooner than normal this spring. Since the big Arctic summer thaw of 2007, the Arctic has stayed in that pattern, and not gone back to the old pattern. Each summer, the summer sea ice has thawed to almost 3 mil sqkm. The old limit of 5 mil sqkm may have become permanent history, not to be repeated anytime soon. The trajectory is towards summers of an ice free Arctic Ocean within the next 5 to 15 years. When the Arctic is ice free in the summers, that will be a new environment for Greenland. When all the air masses coming to it go over water that is above freezing, Greenland melting should accelerate significantly.

    Warmer open ocean water will release moisture to be deposited onto Greenland. This will transfer huge amounts of heat to Greenland, thus accelerating its thaw. The summer melt season in Greenland has already expanded and extended farther north. That melt season will start earlier, go longer, and get hotter. I think that much needs to be learned about the physics and process of melting ice sheets to be able to calculate how the Greenland Ice Cap will respond to this. Some say it will take 2,000 or 3,000 years to melt all of Greenland. A few say less than 500. Personally, I am not sure if it really matters.

    The important thing is that our climate has become destabilized. Permafrost is melting. Methane Clathrates may be released in prodigious quantities. Trees are moving north into the tundra. Insects and birds of the temperate region are moving north into the Arctic. Tropical insects and deseases are moving into the temperate zones. Low coral islands and atolls are submerging under the sea. Lake Michigan is warm and ice free, where it used to be very cold, even in summer for swimming in Chicago. Being ice bound each winter, an ice breaker used to break a shipping a lane each spring, and the drawbridges would get stuck. It was a tradition. No longer. Chicago is my home, I know. This destabilization is taking our climate out of the pattern of the Holocene, which has been our climate for the past 12,000 years.

    Now, during this time there were slightly warmer and colder times, such as the medeival "ice age". But, unless this process can be halted and reversed, then we are moving out of the Holocene climate. Can that happen? Doubtful. Most Earth Scientists blame the rise of atmospheric CO2 from 260 ppm before the industrial revolution to 390 ppm today for the observed warming. However, the rate of increase in CO2 has increased. In the 1950's, atmospheric CO2 was going up at about 0.5ppm per year. Now, it is going up at just under 3.0 ppm per year. It has taken humanity over 200 years to raise CO2 a total of 130 ppm. At the current rate, we will double it in just 40 years. And, since the rate of increase is increasing, it will likely be much less than forty years. That would put us at 520 ppm. So, if you think we have seen global warming now, just wait. By 2050, CO2 will likely be at 520 ppm. Atmospheric methane will also likely to be much higher as the permafrost thaws and the methane clathrates are released. Some say this cannot happen. But, they do not back up these assertions with any credible evidence, calculations, or viable hypotheses that explain the observations. The world governments have a hard time agreeing to managing fish stocks, or whether whales should be hunted. 

    Is any expectation credible that they will be able to work together to do the serious draconian measures necessary to reduce humanity's global carbon emissions to pre-industrial levels? I don't think so, either. Besides, there is the very real possibility that we have already gone past the tipping points, and that global warming is unstoppable now.

    If so, the the end of the Holocene is underway. It was nice wasn't it? Not too hot. Not too cold. Just right. A real Goldilocks climate. Anybody with a suggestion for the coming new climate?

    Comments

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The importance of the loss of sea ice is twofold - first, it shows undeniable evidence of global warming, and second, it reduces albedo. Albedo is the reflection of the sun's rays and energy into space. The albedo effects of polar ice caps keep the earth colder than it would be otherwise.
    ...
    The important thing is that our climate has become destabilized. Permafrost is melting. Methane Clathrates may be released in prodigious quantities.
    Great article Craig. I certainly believe that climate change is happening and the melting ice cap, albedo and methane clathrates predictions are alarming but I'm still unsure as to what extent it is all being caused by man. I have no suggestions about the coming new climate, other than its obvious that humans need to collectively reduce CO2 emissions and stop cutting down forests, but how on earth can this be forced upon developing countries let alone the developed ones when like you said we can't even control worldwide fishing quotas and whaling?

    Definitely the chopping down of a large percentage of the world's forests and polluting the atmosphere must be having a deleterious effect on the planet but what percentage of the observed climate change is being caused by this or by natural occurring cycles in climate change, the Earth's position in the galaxy, the Sun, wobbles in the Earth's orbit, ocean currents, volcanoes and plate tectonics? 

    It looks as though the new climate will probably be one that fluctuates wildly as it has been doing lately here in Australia, where we have recently been experiencing massive floods, cyclones and bush fires but according to Australia's Emeritus professor Ian Plimer in his contentious book heaven+earth, this has all happened before, he claims that in the Earth's history climate has always been changing and that climate has always ruled our lives. The book is a very good read but I still have an open mind on this subject.
    Make love not war
    Hi Craig,
    I enjoy the way you are looking at all of this, and suspect that you might be open to looking at the entire situation from an even broader perspective. A couple of years ago, I decided that machines were changing and multiplying while Homo sapiens, at its end, was heading for obesity, loss of concentration abilities, and forgetfulness. I pictured another, parallel force guiding change that was both similar and different from evolution: mechation. Below is a brief introduction, but you can find the dozen or so pages of the entire content by googling "mechation" and looking at the seminal essay by Ffdssa (me).

    Consider this: organic evolution has peaked as we enter the sixth mass extinction on Earth. Revolutionary changes are still going on, but they are in another realm. From above, the Earth looks like it is rapidly being covered by roads, machines, factories, and mechanisms. From below, our lives are rapidly being consumed by our use of computers, cell phones, audiovisual images, and mechanisms which make our lives easier or more fun. Darwin's theory of evolution applies to changes in the organic molecules of life. He established that living things have cells, respond to change, reproduce, have DNA, use energy, and grow or develop. I suggest that machines have infrastructures, respond to change, reproduce, have symbolic codes, use energy, and grow or develop. Rather than being built with organic molecules, they are built with inorganic materials, codes, and systematization. Let's say that mechanisms live too. As this epoch or era comes to an end, mechanisms are dominating life on earth.
    Contents

    • 1 Mechation
    • 2 The Origins of Mechation
    o 2.1 Signs and Symbols
    o 2.2 Technique
    • 3 The Domains of Mechation
    o 3.1 Media
    o 3.2 Infrastructure
    o 3.3 Global Computing
    o 3.4 Finance and Economics
    o 3.5 Personal Mechation
    o 3.6 Living with Mechation
    o 3.7 Personal Example
    • 4 Creating Mechation

    Mechation
    Let mechation be a new term used to denote a form of evolution related to machine growth, development, and stabilization. While "evolution" has historically been linked to organic life forms based on carbon molecules, the dominant growth and development on our planet over the last century has been that of machines.
    Machines, mechanisms, and tools all derive from human symbolic activity. They are neither human nor organic, however. They do not exhibit the same functions as living organisms, but they change in their own way. While humans do not give "birth" to machines, they generate codes which enable machines to reproduce and multiply. At this moment, we are in a symbiotic relationship. The world automobile population has been doubling every two or three decades. This is made possible by engineering manuals, factories, finance, and distribution techniques. Slowly, with the rapid development of computer capacities, these functions are accomplished with less and less human support. In the near future, automobile design and reproduction will be entirely machine-controlled.
    Although humans claim responsibility for successes and problems caused by machines, it is only because they are caught up in the transitional nature of organic evolution transforming into mechanical evolution: signs and symbols. Humans, the most advanced mammals, create thought and code. The code develops a "life" of its own and has become the "DNA" of mechanisms. Any mechanical device can be constructed or reconstructed by using codes and materials.
    What force guides the transition of evolution towards mechation? Throughout evolutionary time, there has always been intention of change, adaptation, and reproduction. As organic life approaches the current mass extinction, this intention carries us on. Humans have rapidly been creating more and more machines. Even when the economy stops functioning in a recession, systems rapidly work to restore progress. There is no possibility of return: most land animals never returned to the oceans. While reduced machine dependence and usage often creates comfortable lifestyles for adventurous participants, the collective intention of the human species wills that mechation take place. "Human museums" may help preserve the ways of our ancestors and the beauties of their culture, but these settings will not be able to compete with the rapid innovations of lifestyle derived from machine use applied on a mass scale. Modern life choices change the nature of being human.
    Why do humans seem blind to their relinquishment of planetary dominance? Most humans would not agree to give up their human ways for replacement by a mechanical device, but a subtle set of transitional stages exist which hide mechation from popular view: the anthropomorphic vision of a future robot is a distraction from the reality of future machines. Over millennia, humans created tools and signs. Slowly, leadership became attached to the mastery of language. From Aristotle (reputed to have read every book of his day) to a modern Doctor of Philosophy or Master of Business Administration, there has been a progression of abstraction by use of signs that has been carried out by leaders in most societies. Highly abstracted leaders are rooted in the ideas, publications, and peer groups which constitute their identities. They may enjoy wilderness living as well, but their self esteem and self promotion are rooted in their abstracted codifications. There is often excitement as a newly published author becomes popular by rebelling from the technological society or some aspect of the status quo. With success, however, comes enmeshment into the technological society. The author is drawn into it and undergoes a shift in personal identity. This shift aligns his or her intentions with the intentions of mechation. As the current natural process of mechation overtakes evolution in importance, human leaders are trapped in their codes, royalties, status, and peer reviews; they are unable to take actions to restore human-centered lifestyles--ways of living characterized by oral cultures over many millennia.
    Below the level of leadership, the worldwide process of gaining literacy helps change intentions in populations. While highly literate humans do not sense separation from their codes, their machines, and their progress, the average world citizens differ in their worldview. They currently see the Earth being rapidly altered by the leading countries. The intentions of these citizens have been altered as well with the influx of first world media. Global economic forces mechate the economies of these countries and the populations receive immediate economic benefits that make the process seem attractive. However, as larger scales of development ensue, the consequences of urbanization, mechanization, pollution, and climate change alter the social patterns of the country. In these two ways, both leaders and followers bring about the rapid mechation of Earth.

    Hi Craig, the name proposed for the post-Holocene epoch is the 'Anthropocene'.

    @Helen Barratt: It is a simple matter to determine what proportion of atmospheric CO2 comes from fossil sources. Carbon isotope ratios show that ALL of the increased CO2 since pre-industrial times comes from burning organic matter long dead-and-buried. Dr Gavin Schmidt of NASA's Goddard Institute says, without man-made emissions, the climate otherwise would be in a natural cooling trend due to "wobbly orbits". Similarly, CO2 emitted by Volcanoes is in net balance with the C02 returned to the Earth's mantle by Plate Tectonics. Man-made C02 is NOT in balance, which is what is forcing our Climate to change. Finally, quoting Ian Plimer on Climate is an appeal to false authority, as he has none. I suggest you read some George Monbiot for 'balance'.

    @Robert Franklin: tl/dr. Have you considered getting your OWN blog? Your gish-gallop is entirely off-topic.

    Craig Dillon
    My suggestion for the new climate age is - Ohshitocene, from the vulgate for "We didn't see this coming"...
    Arrhenius in 1896? Which part didn't we see coming?

    Craig Dillon
    Just about the whole thing. The climate change deniers still don't admit to the climate change that has already happened. The climatologists generally just talk about "climate change", or "global warming", but I do not see any discussion about this climate age actually coming to an end. The projections of a melted Greenland, whether it takes a few hundred or a few thousand years, obviously means a new climate age. But, I have not seen any reports that discuss this in the terms of an ending of the Holocene.
    Which part_S_? 1) The exponential growth in burning of fossil fuels. 2) effect of a few degrees warming 3) ocean behavior. 4) good data // Arrhenius felt CO2 doubling might take 1,000 yrs in 1896. Or 300 yrs when he revisited the issue later. Being from a cold climate, he thought a little warming might be helpful. He and most later scientists assumed oceans would soak up almost all the extra CO2. Accurate determation of atmospheric CO2 content took until Keeling in the 1950s.

    Craig Dillon
    True, many did predict a rise in CO2 and subsequent global warming. But, I believe even they did not foresee CO2 concentrations getting as high as they are, nor did they predict an end of the Holocene. At least not until the last couple of decades.  
    As for people in cold climates liking global warming, go look at how the people of Greenland are ecstatic about it.  They are starting vegetable farms, so they soon will not have to import their groceries.  Additionally, Greenland is enthusiastically drilling for oil in Baffin Bay.  With a population of just over  50,000, when they strike oil they intend to use oil revenues to fund their independence from Denmark.  

    Additionally, when the Arctic Ocean becomes ice free each summer, Greenland will be on a major crossroads of the world's sea lanes.  I wonder if we  could see a major transshipping port there someday? 
    Ohshitocene. Perfect. I love that.

    Craig Dillon
    Anthropocene -- I like it.
    Anthropocene sounds nice, but a little anthropocentric. However, I think that the changes we are about to see (based on what we have seen in just half a century) will rival the changes recorded between eras rather than epochs or periods. Kind of like the meteor ending the dinosaurs and starting the Cenozoic ("recent time") Era--although it won't be as bad as the start of the Mesozoic must have been.

    The Mechazoic Era.

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    @Helen Barratt: It is a simple matter to determine what proportion of atmospheric CO2 comes from fossil sources. Carbon isotope ratios show that ALL of the increased CO2 since pre-industrial times comes from burning organic matter long dead-and-buried.
    @Artful Dodger: I don't think it is such a simple matter to determine what proportion of atmospheric CO2 comes from man's versus the planet's fossil sources, from what I've been reading so far. I took your advice and checked out George Monbiot for some balance and found this blog war between Plimer and Monbiot, there's a lot of reading though and I don't have time to do it at present.
    Make love not war
    Craig Dillon
    That is true. But, just like at the end of a game when it is won with a last second goal, was it just the bit at the end that changed the result, or was it all that was accumilated there before it that caused the change? Is it not a fool's errand to try and lay blame? Isn't the real imperitive now to find real solutions? Does anyone truly beleive that carbon trading, or labeling CO2 as a pollutant (which it is not) going to help in any significant way? Does anyone have any practical ideas of how the major nations including China, India, and Brazil could change their fossil fuel appetites to actually STOP the increase of atmospheric CO2? If not, then we are in for an interesting time.
    There is no mention of the cloud effect here,i.e.that warming due to co2 will cause an increase in cloud volume which will cause an increase in warming and more increase in cloud et.al..If this is happening then any attempt to slow down the warming will cause worldwide flooding.If the world is covered again in a blanket of cloud [we are simply putting back the co2 that was taken out by plants and locked in the ground as fossil fuels]this will cause the wind to stop and everyone will have to live in their own immediate environment.WE OUGHT TO PREPARE FOR THAT NOW!

    Craig Dillon
    The cloud effect, as you call it, is somewhat complicated, and I don't know if we know its full effect. Cloud cover does inhibit heat radiation to space, but it also increases albedo, since the white cloud cover does reflect light. Moreover, water vapor is a green house gas as well. If a warmer atmosphere holds more water vapor, then that is another effect not taken into consideration in climate change projections. If anyone knows of any studies on this, let me know.
    MikeCrow
    We don't know how to model clouds yet, as well as some other things I think they have wrong in the GCMs.

    But, we know there's not a open positive feedback loop, or the temp would have already run away.

    Plus there some questions about CO2 you can look over the bottom 3 papers here : http://rocketscientistsjournal.com/


    Never is a long time.
    Craig Dillon
    In Re: Climate Models....
    Models are not perfect. They try to take all the variables that we know about and can quantify, and then create a mathematical model from that.  Climatologists check their models against past climate patterns, both recent and prehistoric, to validate them. The assumption being that if the climate model can recreate the climate patterns of past eras, then the more it could probably be relied upon to predict future climate patterns.  

    Comments here illustrate that people are still confusing climate and weather.  There is no hard link between climate change and hurricanes, or thunderstorms, or blizzards, or any other single weather event.  Global warming cannot oven be said to be responsible for a record high temperature in any city, say Brisbane.  What you can attribute global warming to, however, is if MOST of the world cities experience hot summers, or mild winters.  Remember, a single weather phenomenon does not indicate climate, just as a single rainstorm in a desert does mean it will turn into a rain forest.  
    The last Ice Age ended 11.714 years (Danish International Standard) ago and I guess that no one expected the climate to be colder after a Ice Age... The Earths normal condition is Ice Age, disrupted by Holocene with an average lenght of appx. 10.000 years.

    The Earth is working very hard on to go back to normal condition. It can only be done by warming the Oceans and disruption of the Ocean cirkulation.

    CO2 (and other GHG) is not the main driver of the warming, watervapour is the driver. CO2 + are more an safety valve. Look the the dessert climate.

    In the deserts is hot like hell in the daytime and cloce to freezing level at night-time, despite the CO2 level is close to 390 PPMv... the problem in the deserts is the missing watervapour as an GHG.

    In Libya and South Africa in areas with irrigated agricultural areas in deserts is hot in daytimes, but at nighttime is just normal temperatures... crops are NOT damaged by cold because of the watervapout in the atmosphere.

    Have a closer look at the fruit- and vegetable farmers in Florida, spraying water dust over the strawbery-fields when the temperatures was close to freezing point... Why did they do it? The answer is very simple... to generate heat to save the strawbery from frost damage. When the water-dust starts frezee it release huge amoungs of heat to the atmosphere. The Mexican's couldn't affort it and now we can see the results... 80-90 % lose of the harvest.

    Temperature is as very bad proxy for heat-flow in the Arctic.... when the air temperatures is high in the winter the sea ice freeze and when it smelts in the melting season the temperature are very low (very close to average).

    If there was NO watervapour in the atmosphere over the entire USA on a normal summernight.... all plants there can freeze would be damaged by frost.... despite the 390 PPMv CO2 in the atmosphere.

    This halocene is the most human- and climate freindly ever in the Earths history.... Enjoy the warming.

    Kind regards

    Svend Hendriksen
    Kangerlussuaq
    Greenland

    Hank
    This halocene is the most human- and climate freindly ever in the Earths history.... Enjoy the warming.
    Indeed.  Since, as you mentioned, 90,000 out of every 100,000 years of Earth history have been ice ages and it's been 12,000 years since the last one, we need to hope for warming to last a little while longer.   I expect to live another 50 years, so that would be ideal.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Craig Dillon
    I believe that there have been several epochs, such as the Creatceous, that saw no ice ages at all. But, the Earth has also had two times when "ice ball" earth conditions existed -- a sort of super ice age. The ratio of 90,000 out of 100,000 years refers to just the past few million years, since the establishment of the Antarctic ice cap.
    Craig Dillon
    Although you are correct that water vapor is an important GHG, to say that it is the ONLY factor, and CO2 and methane have no effect is wrong. Moreover, you are mixing apples and oranges when it comes to talking about why farmers of orange groves spray water on their fruit plants during a frost. First, they are spraying liquid water, not water vapor. The effect of saving the fruits from frost come from the fact that it takes the removal of a lot of heat from water to make it freeze. The water droplets covering the fruit give up their heat first, thus buying time for the fruit, since it just has to make it through the night. If the freeze continues longer than that, then the fruit may be lost as well.
    Craig Dillon
    11,714 years ago?  Wasn't that on a Tuesday at 2 PM?  
    THE CLOUD EFFECT, when i wrote about the cloud effect above i was not so concerned about the sun's heat on the outside of the clouds but the heat of INDUSTRY on the inside of the 'greenhouse' of co2/clouds.Certainly there will be an albedo effect on the outside back into space but how much heat of the sun will be absorbed and held on the inside of the 'greenhouse'..Is there also an albedo effect of clouds on the inside by the heat of industry being reflected back at us creating more and more cloud and more and more trapped heat on the inside.I have observed ,having lived in a city ,that when snow falls if cloud remains after it has fallen the snow melts but if the cloud goes the snow remains or even freezes.Is this the heat of industry being held in by clouds and causing warming.Most climate science is payed for by government and therefore[like judicial enquiries]the terms of reference by confining examination to desireable areas and excluding undesireable ones a distorted and blurred verdict can be obtained.If this is so politicians are playing a very dangerous game for us all.

    Craig Dillon
    I have been made aware of an Australian climate change denier - Ian Plimer.  I have learned a bit about him and I will write a blog on him someday.  The first thing I did was to find out who this guy is.  I found that besides being a university professor in geology, he is on the board of several mining companies in Australia.  And in Australia, mining is tied to coal. So, he seems to be a representative of the energy industry [who are hypocrites, in the US, while they fund the Cato Institute and other climate deniers, they spend millions on re-engineering the Alaskan pipeline to accommodate the thawing permafrost!] 

    I have had discussions with climate  scientists, and they are reasonable people doing a job. If they go to the Arctic to get measurements, they are not cooking the results.  They let the measurements speak for themselves.  The scientists are constantly having their writings peer reviewed.  Who peer reviews Ian Plimer's work?  What is more is that HE cooks the data, making up charts and facts to suit himself.  

    Well, enough of that. Got to save something for the blog.  (PS. That is why I call myself the skeptical skeptic.)    
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    One of the things I find quite disturbing is the way that Ian Plimer is dismissed out of hand for having anything credible to say about climate change simply because he is a Professor of Geology and not climate change and an Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences at Melbourne University.

    He was also Professor and Head at the University Melbourne from1991 to 2005 and Professor and Head at the University of  Newcastle (1985 - 1991) and also happens to be a Director of mining companies  like CBH Resources Ltd and Ken Minerals plc. He had a mineral, plimerite an orthorhombic also named after him, so what, he's a geologist, of course he is likely to have connections with the mining industry. More importantly I think, he has published more than 120 scientific papers on geology and written several books including 'heaven+earth' about climate change.

    I think you are asking a very valid question as to 'Who reviews Ian Plimer's work?' So far all I can find are criticisms about him being connected to the mining industry thrown at him mainly by non-academics and journalists, does anyone have any valid links to peer reviews of his work and climate change hypotheses and observations done by other suitably qualified academics?
    Make love not war
    Hank
    James Hansen is also only a climate change expert because he became one in peoples' minds - his degree and background was astrophysics.   Dismissing someone because of that is a logical fallacy, much the same way detractors dismiss atmospheric physicist and Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at MIT Richard Lindzen because 20 years ago he took a $5000 fee to sit on a committee funded by an oil company to talk about ways to lessen emissions and their impact is bad. 

    I am not endorsing Plimer, I know nothing about him, I just agree that zealots and journalists slamming him is not good science.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Aitch
    As an Environmentalist, I'm pretty disgusted with simple association slander

    However, if someone uses their credentials to mislead people and push an agenda, like, Quotes, 'Former meteorologist and weather expert Anthony Watts' at whatsupwiththat.com, and his support for 'Lord Monckton', that Patrick has done several pieces about, then I see no reason to NOT say there's corrupt commercial self interest, even if only to boost advertising revenue, to the detriment of many hardworking Scientists from very many fields, and many years of collecting/collating and analysing data, by accusing them , en masse, for conjuring up a real world problem, and denying that it exists

    I don't see why someone should even want to earn out of messing with people's heads on such an important issue, let alone be able to sleep well.....

    Heck, even Luboš Motl has posted some very anti climate change/anti global warming stuff....it's all a Nazi plot, he says....

    and he's a regular here....and there's no denying he enjoys advertising revenue ;-)

    Aitch
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Plimer is NOT anti-climate change! He is questioning the extent to which the climate change that is happening is man made! There is a huge difference.
    Make love not war
    Aitch
    Is this intended to reply to me or Craig, Helen....?

    I didn't mention Pilmer, or allude to him...
    He is questioning the extent to which the climate change that is happening is man made!
    Luboš does the same, as far as I can make out, although his 'style' is slightly different

    Aitch
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Whoops, it was meant to be a reply to Craig further up. He said 'I have been made aware of an Australian climate change denier - Ian Plimer'. Apologies for misrepresenting you!
    Make love not war
    Craig Dillon
    According to Wikipedia, this man says that the Pacific Islands are NOT sinking into the sea because the sea is rising. He also says that the Arctic Ice cap is NOT shrinking due to CO2 in the atmosphere. He also says mankind is not the cause of CO2 in the atmosphere, although, to my knowledge he gives no explanation for the rise of atmospheric CO2 coinciding with and accelerating with industrial activity for the last 200 years. Moreover, he did not just have a meeting with a mining company or two. He is on the board of THREE mining compnanies. And, with such an intimate association it would be naive not to question his allegiances. Moreover, his attacks on the world scientific community is unacceptable. I cannot bow down to this false god.
    I agree entirely that we need nothing less than judicial independence in coming to a verdict on climate change and an open terms of reference for it to be believed and trusted by all reasonable people.Wherever riches are involved though corruption must follow.In universities for instance how many students would swap a search for truth for that bit of paper at the end that can get you a well paid job and the prestige of letters after your name.In calculus for instance when i said i couldn't accept the lie that as something becomes infinitesimally small you can say it equals nothing i was told i had to accept it to get my bit of paper.Yet this is the basis of mathermatics behind computer modelling on which world changing decisions are made,also missile guidence systems that in the iraq war caused a 50% miss resulting in half the bombs hitting innocent people and the coelition forces dropping twice the bombs dropped in world war 2.I cannot understand you helen in defending plimer you are compromising your independence which from your writings i was beginning to believe you had.

    LOL. I wander about, looking at various blogs to see what comments they attract. This one has some of the wackiest! Take a step back guys, and reflect - 'mechation', 'the cloud effect', 'big coal' . . . you're talking about beliefs, not about science. Challenge: pass the 'one proof' test'. Can anyone provide one proof that increasing atmospheric CO2 has increased global temperatures? Just one proof. Shouldn't be too hard. I'm waiting . . .

    Craig Dillon
    Just one? Is that all you need? Well, here are some... Lake Michigan no longer requires an ice breaker to open shipping lanes in the spring. Tree lines are moving up the mountainsides. Many species are moving north towards the arctic. Arctic species are diminishing -- polar bear, arctic fox The most obvious is the shrinking polar ice cap, as can be seen at the Cryosphere Today website. You can look at the Arctic for everyday back to 1980. If that does not convince you, then you are more stupid than an idiot because you CHOOSE to be stupid.
    . . . thanks Craig . . . but I’m asking for a proof that CO2 is related to the events that you cite. That is to say, instead of trundling out a bunch of anecdotes about what is happening, you actually describe WHY they're happening, and how it is related to CO2. Proof, please.

    Craig Dillon
    In science, proofs are often a combination of correlation and understanding of process, and sometimes just correlation. For instance, aspirin was known for many years to relieve pain. Scientists did not have a clue as to how it worked, but since taking it was correlated with pain relief, it was declared effective. Now, CO2 IS a greenhouse gas. Scientists can calculate how much additional heat is retained by the increase in atmospheric CO2. Now the fact that the increase in CO2 for the last 180 years is correlated to a high degree with world temperature rise is highly suggestive of a link. Scientists brighter than I have done the calculations and have concluded that CO2 is the cause. The science has been peer reviewed and peer reviewed and is accepted now by the scientific community. Now, whether humanity is responsible for all that CO2 is also widely accepted, although not to quite the complete extent of the CO2 to warming link. But, I accept it. To me, the fact that the Earth has for the first time in many millions of years reached 380ppm, tells me that humanity has caused it, for we are the only NEW variable, and it would require a new variable to cause CO2 to rise that much. In fact, humanity is also the only new variable that would create the current situation where CO2 is going up by 2.5ppm per year. What the climate deniers do not address is how the increased CO2 can happen and have the climate stay the same. Yet, they keep denying the climate is changing. The GOP Congress just passed a resolution denying climate change, so that attitude still persists. If you are a climate change denier, please don't comment on my posts. I will not respond to any comment that comes from a climate change denier. I haven't the time or interest to communicate with people I consider beneath contempt. I consider them that because they refuse to use their eyes, and their brains. I have patience with people who are ignorant or brain injured, but to intentionally choose to be stupid is beyond my patience.
    Once again, thanks Craig.

    I must say I’m not sure where to begin with your gracious response to my follow up post. At the end seems a good place. No, I am not a climate change denier. The climate changes. No, I am not particularly ignorant. I have an academic background in this field. No, I am not brain injured. Despite riding a motorbike for longer than probability suggests that it is safe to do so.

    Without turning to (for the moment) various statements made in your original article (do you really subscribe to those statements about the Arctic ice extent since 2007? – you seem to have misplaced a million or so square kilometres for most years? . . . ) the challenge I issued was for someone to provide a single proof that increasing CO2 is responsible for increasing atmospheric temperatures. It seems to be beyond you. I quote your follow up post, and provide some brief responses:

    “CO2 IS a greenhouse gas.” Yes

    “Scientists can calculate how much additional heat is retained by the increase in atmospheric CO2.” Yes – but the CO2 effect is logarithmic

    “Now the fact that the increase in CO2 for the last 180 years is correlated to a high degree with world temperature rise is highly suggestive of a link. “Well, yes and no. as I’ve mentioned in my earlier post, association and causation are actually different. Example: most car accidents happen at traffic light controlled intersections. Does this mean that traffic light controlled intersections cause car accidents? Furthermore, while atmospheric CO2 has been rising over the past decade or so, the temperature has not.

    “Scientists brighter than I have done the calculations.” Yes

    “and have concluded that CO2 is the cause.” ‘a’ cause and ‘the’ cause are different concepts. Think about it . . .

    “The science has been peer reviewed and peer reviewed and is accepted now by the scientific community.” A good time to mention the ‘climategate’ email scandal, perhaps . . .

    “Now, whether humanity is responsible for all that CO2 is also widely accepted, although not to quite the complete extent of the CO2 to warming link.” I’m happy to ascribe a large proportion of the increase in CO2 to anthropogenic sources.

    “To me, the fact that the Earth has for the first time in many millions of years reached 380ppm, tells me that humanity has caused it, for we are the only NEW variable, and it would require a new variable to cause CO2 to rise that much.” Whoever/whatever caused it aside, in the past the atmospheric CO2 concentration has been much, much higher.

    “What the climate deniers do not address is how the increased CO2 can happen and have the climate stay the same. “The point here is that the climate does change, as has the atmospheric CO2 level. They always have. It’s a bit like the cop at the gruesome crime scene: “nothing to see here, move along . . .”

    “Yet, they keep denying the climate is changing. “No. Waffle, in fact. Anyone that disputes that the climate is changing is indeed a denier. But there are no actual deniers as everyone knows that the climate changes. There are lots of people who think that the climate is changing for reasons other than the change in the concentration of atmospheric CO2, but they are not ‘deniers’ and labelling them as such probably says a lot more about you than it does about them..

    To summarise, Craig, you may be correct in your assertions, however, you have not demonstrated any creditable evidence. My ‘one proof’ challenge still awaits a satisfactory response. I would be very pleased if you provide it, but I have my doubts . . .

    Best wishes

    Tattymane

    Dear Tattymane,

    Congratulations for staying so cool while being flushed by buckets of self accusing adrenaline. I sometimes have the feeling that there's a lot of aggressive masochism on the alarmist side. Something like the Shiites have when they flog themselves because they -well al least somebody some 1000 years ago- lost the battle of Kerbala.
    As for the difference between correlation and causation, you could have mentioned the possibility, that rising ocean temperatures could release an awful lot of CO2 into the atmosphere. I don't have the reference here, but I remember that from some ice core from Greenland was concluded that historically higher temperatures precede higher CO2 levels. You don't hear that argument much any more.

    SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTELED!

    Elusive subatomic particle may not exist after all

    By Reuters, Published: August 29

    Scientists chasing a particle they believe may have played a vital role in creation of the universe indicated last week that they were coming to accept that it might not exist after all.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-awakens-its-h...

    Please STOP yapping about climate change/global warming
    being "settled" .

    SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTELED!

    Elusive subatomic particle may not exist after all

    By Reuters, Published: August 29

    Scientists chasing a particle they believe may have played a vital role in creation of the universe indicated last week that they were coming to accept that it might not exist after all.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-awakens-its-h...

    Please STOP yapping about climate change/global warming
    being "settled" .

    So what does it mean, now that the Arctic Ice extent is about to go to a record high:
    http://www.real-science.com/arctic-ice-extent-beat-norsex-record

    Y'all keep on suckin' now!

    The ice is going to melt in the summer?!?! Wow, that's different from what it usually does! I mean, summer time can't possibly mean no ice can it?