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    The “New Rules for Time Travel ” and Sean Carroll’s Gate
    By Marshall Barnes | February 26th 2010 08:31 AM | 35 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments

        The “New Rules for Time Travel ” and Sean Carroll’s Gate



     



    Marshall Barnes, R&D Eng



    AET RaDAL



    United States of America



    February 16, 2010


    (NEW! As of 3/4/2010, see special *note about Sean Carroll after References at the bottom...)

     


     


    Abstract


      This paper will deconstruct and analyze the closed time-like curve examples of  Sean Carroll as he wrote them in the March 2010 cover story for Discover Magazine in relation to issues of entropy, determinism, and time travel paradoxes. I will then reveal the actual nature of how those space-time geometries would function, in contrast to they way in which they were described in the article. Topics include wormholes, black holes, Riemann slits, causality, and parallel universes.                      

    The cover story of the March 2010 edition of Discover Magazine contains the screaming headline—The New Rules for Time Travel: What to know before you go! with a huge picture of a clock with the glass cover exploding from across its face. As the nature of time, and in particular - time travel, is one of my main areas of fundamental study, I took particular interest and wasted no time in finding the article inside which I discovered to actually be called How To Travel Through Time[1]. I quickly scanned through it looking for some new information concerning a breakthrough, perhaps on par with the University of Connecticut’s Ronald Mallet PhD [2], but instead I was confronted with what appeared to be the same tired cliché subjects derived from time travel theories. Or so I thought. To my delight, I saw the basis for a new paper and a chance to do some fresh work in response, as well as reintroduce some research results that I have explained before in a number of my lectures.                                                                                                 

    The article was written by Sean Carroll, PhD and was an excerpt from his just released book, From Eternity to Here. Early on he reduces the whole issue of time travel to a matter of paradoxes and the question of “what happened at the vicinity of this particular event in space-time?”, and but seemingly fails to comprehend the somewhat obvious implications of that very same question and its logical conclusion. The logic and the obviousness will become apparent later.

    Next he focuses on the issue of free will and how consistent stories are still possible even in space-times with closed time-like curves. He then introduces a plot device — a gate that will allow you to go one day into the past if you walk through the front, and one day into the future if you walk through the opposite side. Sean suggests a hypothetical situation to make this more interesting. He has us assigned as the guardians of this gate device to monitor closely who comes and goes. One day we see a guy leave from the back of the gate, which according to Sean, “It just means that you will see that person enter the front of the gate tomorrow.” When tomorrow comes, however, the guy is still hanging around the gate and when it has been 24 hours since he exited the back of the device, he walks around and disappears through the front. This signals to Sean that the guy came from nowhere and that the entire life of this time traveler consists of nothing else but this closed time-like loop that his action implies. Sean uses this to emphasize a link between the increase of entropy over time since the time traveler must align “every single atom in his body...” “in precisely the right place to join up smoothly with his past self”. This insistence reveals that Sean doesn’t understand his time traveler, or the space-time geometry that he has constructed with his gate apparatus, beyond anything but the most pedestrian level, as I will prove later. However, let me note now that the idea that the time traveler must line-up with his “past self” indicates that there must be more than one of him or else what is he to line-up with? This will also become problematic later. You should note that this is the first and last time in the article that Sean mentions the idea of duplicates of anything that would result from this time travel scenario involving the time traveler who seems to be on the CTC. I will also reveal why that is important.                                                                            

    Another disturbing thing about this time traveler/CTC scenario is Sean's claim that the time traveler will not accumulate new memories. It's as if Sean believes that going through the gate wipes out your memories when in fact, it wouldn't. Part of this is because, as he has already indicated, he's trying connect the time traveler to his past self and, by doing so, would rid the time traveler of any continuation of existence beyond that point except as a repeat of his past self. We'll see, in excruciating detail, why this wouldn't be the case, later.                                                     

     Next, he attempts to bring some validity to this whole affair by giving a detailed description of what closed time-like curves are but it is not surprising that he only makes things worse when he actually states that “In the usual way of thinking, the laws of physics function like a computer. You give as input the present state, and the laws return as output what the state will be one instant later (or earlier, if we wish). By repeating the process many times, we can build up the entire history of the universe from start to finish. In that sense, complete knowledge of the present implies complete knowledge of all history.”                          

    Of course, I was stunned at this statement. It’s as if there's no uncertainty principle from quantum mechanics limiting how much we can know, or how physicists, knowing full well the rules of general relativity, rejected the notion of the implied reality of black holes, or even everyone’s lack of certainty, despite all we know about particle physics, of what will happen when the Large Hadron Collider is turned on all the way at Cern. Scientists are still debating on whether or not there will be a big crunch for the universe, let alone feeling certain about how it all began, and Sean is talking about building up the entire history of the universe from start to finish? After some consideration it would appear that Sean was actually trying to convey the determinism described by solutions derived from the space-like Cauchy surface, where space-time is completely at rest. From that, it can be argued (not by me) that CTCs arise wherein causality breaks down and can allow for events which are their own cause, thus creating a Cauchy horizon [3]. As you will read later, it is clear that I do not subscribe to this interpretation - of events that are their own cause, and I am encouraged in that position by the numerous incongruities that I have found in the work of those who just blindly accept the idea without serious reconsideration.             

    Sean argues that CTCs  actually prevent knowledge of the future (again, based on determinism), which is actually quite funny in one aspect when you consider that CTCs, especially the way that he describes them, would actually do the opposite—they repeat history so that you know exactly what to expect—a repeat of what has happened before. Remember? His insistence on the time traveler aligning his body up exactly with his earlier self at the right moment? Yet Sean claims that CTCs make predictions impossible. He actually insists that CTCs make the universe “unpredictable” because “mysterious strangers and random objects can then appear and disappear out of thin air…” Sounds like a very good description, actually, of any number of discoveries from quantum mechanics — virtual particles, quantum tunneling...Need I say more?

    In reality, what Sean is trying to say is that the CTC prevents future knowledge of a region of space-time from being predicted by prior knowledge. It really has nothing to do with the knowledge of the entire universe in a literal sense, but in the parlance of general relativity. However, with this distinction unclear, it is writing like this - with sweeping generalities, that perpetuates a state of misinformation among the scientifically interested lay public as well as a reliance on false assumptions among physicists. In the wake of such statements I am not surprised then when he states further that CTCs would prevent the ability to “divide all of space-time into distinct moments”. He thinks so because CTCs curve space-time back on itself, which is true, however it is equally untrue that such a geometry would prevent the former division from taking place. A CTC doesn't replicate everything exactly (in fact Sean states that "Closed time-like curves make the future resemble the past" - emphasis mine) but takes a region of space-time and curves it back through time. That doesn't mean that going through it is an exact repeat of what happened before (thus dividing distinct moments in time is still possible) . Again, we see why later. At this point I'm merely setting up Sean's positions. I will do a full deconstruction and resolution in due time.                                 

    The problem here can be summed up with this quote from Sean, “Some of our understanding of time is based on logic and the known laws of physics, but some of it is based purely on convenience and reasonable-sounding assumptions”. The later is exactly why Sean Carroll has so many problems with his article. I gave a presentation at the 2004 International Mars Society conference titled, Avoiding Hidden Assumption Traps When Thinking Outside of the Box [4]where I showed that it is exactly this tendency to assume that has led to what I call the train wreck in physics when it comes to these kind of advanced concept subjects. Especially when it comes to time. I will now reveal the solutions to the various problems stemming from this in Sean's article.                             

    Let’s begin by revisiting the space-time geometry of Sean’s gate. This is something that I am very familiar with, to the point that I will sometimes refer to such configurations as Riemann slits, which is the mathematical term for an opening that takes you from one plane to another. The term was invented by German mathematician Bernhard Riemann [5] back in the mid-1800s. I prefer that term when discussing said geometries in general and not speaking specifically about wormholes, black holes, etc. which have a variety of specific and mutually exclusive properties that preclude generalization for discussions of non-trivial space-times. Figure 1 shows such an opening within a cube of space with vector lines in a light cone-like arrangement that define the spatial direction one is viewing when looking through opposite sides of the Riemann slit. The vector lines are both indicating a region outside of the light cone of a typical space-time diagram but also light coming from within the slit from the destination it opens to. The correlation with the light cone of a space-time diagram is due to the region inside the slit being a destination that would exist outside the light cone on a space-time diagram in that area that is usually referred to as Elsewhere and would only be reachable via traveling faster than light, time travel or transversable wormhole (i.e. a Riemann slit). It should be remembered that although the slit occupies the place where Now usually appears on a space-time diagram, this is not a space-time diagram and the vector lines are indicating directions from within the slit, directions that exist in a region that would normally be considered outside the light cone of the space indicated by the cube. The contrasting dashed arrows indicate each line of sight to that region. 





      
    Figure 2 repeats that with the addition of the view from the space that would be
    contained within the slit and the contrasting lines of sight. You can see what you would be looking at, depending on which side of the slit you are on, regardless of whether or not you are in the space where the slit originates (in the cube) or the space that the slit opens up to. I do this to show how such nontrivial space-times are usually arranged, before I deal specifically with Sean’s. Note how I distinguish between the point from which the slit originates versus where it opens up to. The significance of this will become more than apparent later, but what it indicates is the level to which I understand the inherent nature of these arrangements which may be unfamiliar to most readers at first, but will make complete sense as we go along. The reason that they will be unfamiliar to most is that there are derived from extensive research into the subject which most PhD physicists have not done. That is exactly why this paper is going to be much longer than I had originally planned. But this paper's purpose is to reveal important insights, that are presented in Sean's article, but are left unstated.

    Now, the unique nature of Sean’s gate is it doesn’t open up to another space-time but to two — a day in the past on one side and a day in the future via the other. In this case, when applied to my diagrams, if you look through the front (or right side) you will be looking to the past by one day. If you walk around and look through the left (or back) you will be seeing the future by one day. He has indicated that this gate is a time machine that we discover, so we are left to understand that we are talking about a physical construct of some type and not just a natural wormhole that we have discovered. He uses the word “gate” and never mentions wormhole, and he also indicates that it is a time machine. I emphasize this because it is not unknown for physicists to call wormholes, or CTCs, time machines because they fear writing about time travel in any other form. So I want to hold Sean to his words and by doing so, point out that if the gate is a time machine, somebody built it, which means that you could keep going backward in time to when it was first placed there, which is the point where the first inconsistency shows up—the fact that there is a time machine at all.                              

    First let me explain this important point and I will then move on to how it relates to CTCs. When discussing time travel to the past, in particular, and paradoxes, nearly everyone focuses in on some inconsistent plot element like murdering your grandfather or your teenage mother falling in love with you so she never weds your dad (the same paradoxical result ). Because of this, the idea is that some event creates a paradox that would be illogical and so indicates that time travel is impossible or that some mysterious force of coincidences comes together to prevent such things from occurring in the first place. Hence, Discover magazine's claim that Sean's article constitutes new rules for time travel because Sean's initial premise is that CTCs could provide time travel without inconsistency. What is constantly ignored here is that the first, initial inconsistency, as in all time travel scenarios, is the arrival of the time traveler to begin with.

                                 

    It's October 1914, on the Western Front and suddenly, during the Battle of Ypres, amongst the drifting smoke and explosions, a glowing ring of light opens up on the trenches and out steps a determined looking young man, armed with an Uzi. Just then, a mustached German Gefreiter, acting as a runner, races by but not noticing the phenomena that is happening just above him and to his right.  The man fires his Uzi at the soldier, gunning him down in a hail of bullets, and then just as suddenly vanishes into the portal of light, which blinks out. Stunned, near-by soldiers of the Barvarian Regiment List [6], scramble to his side.

                                

     "Gott im Himmel! Adolf ist durch den Engel des Todes getötet worden! "

                                

    Of course this is the classic, "what if you went back and killed Hitler..." scenario, albeit with a unique twist, but the importance here is not that it is inconsistent with the historical record but the mere act of opening a path to the past, in most cases, would be inconsistent with the historical record. What you do isn't the determining factor, its the mere act of changing space-time to enable you to do anything, that is the determining, inconsistent factor. This simple fact renders all other arguments, concerning paradoxes and keeping stories consistent within CTCs, moot.

                            

    Now the idea that CTCs simply repeat the same thing over and over ignores the fact that there is a starting point. After all, if the CTC is truly closed then you can’t get into it in the first place. It’s similar to Stephen Hawking’s chronology protection conjecture [7], which is also wrong (and which he has since abandoned so I won't waste space going into all the obvious reasons it was never right, here) but it is correct on this one angle - if you do produce a causal link to the past then that link will be destroyed by the sudden eruption of feedback.  If a space-time were to actually go back and curve to an exact previous point, in time and space, then any energy from that time, and near that region, could flow through that CTC back to where it began, repeatedly, and destroy the CTC in an explosion. I am reminded of galactic jets that are seen erupting from the center of supermassive black holes and wonder, since time and space are said to break down inside of black holes, could these jets in some instances be the result of brute force CTCs being created and exploding

    It used to be believed that you might be able to fly into a black hole and avoid the singularity but we know now, from Hubble Space Telescope photography, that the tremendous gravitational forces and radiation exceed the tolerances for any technology that we could imagine. I pointed this out in my 2009 article Space Shuttle Endeavor Crew Flunk Kid's Youtube Question [8] (the short title) concerning how a member of the shuttle crew answered that "We don't know" when a British kid asked via Youtube what would happen if you flew into a black hole. The right answer is that, due to the conditions that I cited, there is no flying into a black hole. If the forces just near the accretion disc are powerful and hot enough to turn matter into gas, a flight even past the accretion disc is impossible, let alone into the hole itself. But it cannot be disallowed that such rampant and brutal forces, that are exerted within such a celestial body, could be capable of tearing CTCs into existence which would violate causality and explode as Hawking predicted. I am differentiating between the type of CTC that allows for time travel and that which would result from the out of control forces stemming from a black hole, thus my use of the term brute force.         

     However, outside of topic of black holes, descriptions of CTCs encounter the problem of describing what happens to that entry point. Any CTC must have an initial beginning. If it pinches off soon after it is formed, there may not be enough energy to destroy the loop. If it does remain open too long, the energy would be joined by more and more, and eventually the CTC would be destroyed as it would be inside a black hole.

    But such ideas ignore quantum mechanics which tells us that you only get one outcome per measurement which means there is no going back to the same exact moment in the same exact time, in the same exact space, at least not in the exact same space-time, which means that we must be talking about parallel universes here and, in fact, all discussions on time travel lead to that simply by the act of the time machine being switched on. Arguments that parallel universe time travel isn't really time travel are inconsequential inside a physics discussion. The point is to discuss physics and not sheer fantasy. Whether they are mentioned outright or left unspoken, as Sean has done, the point at which parallel universes come into play can be seen in every physics time travel scenario. Despite being mute on the subject, Sean's own design betrays his silence, as I will illustrate.

                                   

    Figure 3 shows how Sean's gate is set-up.  The top illustration shows Today with the right side of the gate leading to Yes. (yesterday) and the left leading to Tom. (tomorrow). Yes. leads to the space-time Yes.Today where yesterday is the current day and the day you came from is in the future. Likewise, Tom. leads to the space-time Tom.Today where that future day is current and the day you came from is in the past. Each time I go through the opening in the same direction, I go further by one day into the past or future, depending on my direction. I have corresponding arrows that point directly to the space-time configuration that each path through the gate would lead to.



     So, I can keep going backward in time by going through the front of the gate, over and over again. Before I proceed I want make a clarification. He specifically states that "When you pass through it in one direction, it takes you exactly one day into the past; if you pass through in the other direction, it takes you exactly one day into the future." There is no mention of having to wait before you go through the gate, although he mentions waiting later as part of his scenario with a time traveler. That being the case, that every time you pass through the gate you arrive the day before in the one direction and the next day in the other, then it is possible to go back to the gate's beginning. That means I can finally arrive the day before the gate was put there, but if I’m there the day before, how did I emerge to that past and can I get back? The answers to those questions simultaneously reveal another aspect of Sean’s gate that he failed to see, but I will answer the questions first. When I go through the opening and arrive the day before the gate was there, there will obviously be an opening through which to walk through because the purpose of the gate is to open up to the past in one direction and the future in the other. But I arrive before the gate is in place, how did I get there? Obviously there was an opening to pass through. Notice I said opening and not gate

    Let’s put you in my place instead. Imagine that you are about to go through the gate and arrive the day before it was put in place. You’re standing there and you see this door frame looking device (an arbitrary shape since Sean describes none) and inside the device, just as Sean described, is the day before. Note, he says that you have to pass through, but what happens when you turn around and look at the gate? Do you actually see the gate? If you’re arriving the day before it was created , how could you? There is no gate there on that day. Do we have a paradox here? No, we don't.                        

    There are no paradoxes in time travel. What we have is the discovery of a long series of assumptions that are in Sean’s article. First of all, how does this gate function? This is an important question because as a research and development engineer I want to know how things work or if they can be built. British physicist John Gribbin, in his article, Why Time Travel Is Possible [9] closed it by saying, "self-consistency is a consequence of the Principle of least action, and nature can be seen to abhor a time travel paradox. Which removes the last objection of physicists to time travel in principle -- and leaves it up to the engineers to get on with the job of building a time machine." If we engineers are going have the job of building a time machine we have to understand intimately how such a device could be possible. That means we have to understand the physics. As a conceptual theorist that is also my job. So if a physicist like Sean is going to suggest such a device, the first thing I'm looking at is how it's supposed to operate. Because I have an intense interest in the nature of time and temporal mechanics, my scrutiny will be on a different level than that of a casual reader or your typical PhD physicist, who treats the subject more as a curiosity that arises from certain applications of general or special relativity, instead of being an integral part of the next step in Man's understanding the universe.                                                                                                                                              

    Now, Sean's gate functions by opening a hole in space-time to one day in the past in one direction and one day in the future in the other. Notice, we’re talking about a hole that you pass through. Ever walk through a doorway into another room and, on one side of the doorway, there is this ornate frame but on the opposite side, there is just a plain wall? Sure you have. If nothing else, the front entrance to most homes is like that. Well, that ornate door frame is like the gate. When you pass through and turn around you wouldn’t see the gate because it wouldn’t exist in that space-time of the day before it was created, but the opening that it caused would. This situation also reveals something else—that we’re talking about parallel universes here, automatically. Why? Because if the gate opens up to the day before it was created and yet it didn’t exist the day before it was created —that’s a paradox itself unless it opens to a parallel day before it was created. From an engineering point of view, the gate is generating some kind of field that has created this hole is space-time, and in some way has stabilized it.                                                                                                                           

    This revelation creates a whole new state of affairs. For example, the way that Sean describes the gate, it would be possible to go through the openings that it caused, not only past the time it was created (something that most physicists refrain from suggesting because they only like to consider time travel via CTCs or CTLs when not derived from time dilation on speeding rockets through space) but into infinity in either direction. Those familiar with the theoretical aspects of rotating black holes will recognize this concept of being able to travel to an infinity of parallel universes as depicted in certain Penrose maps [10].                    

    So Sean’s gate would actually open to a parallel past where the gate itself didn’t exist. Even if you began the day after and went back to the first day that it was operational, you still wouldn’t see it on that day because the day that the gate first connects to is the day before it existed and that is only possible in a parallel universe. In other words, the past timeline is never linked to the one where we see the gate first being activated.       

                                     

    I'll explain a different way. Going through the gate the day it is activated and you arrive in the space the day before it is activated, imagine just hanging out there for 24 hours. What happens then? The hole will still be there but, will the gate suddenly materialize around it? No. Here's why - you are in a space-time where a hole opened where there had never been one before. The day that hole opened by the activation of the gate is not the same day and place as the original day before the gate was activated because on that day there was no hole. No hole, no linear link to the exact day that the gate was activated, no ever seeing the gate suddenly appear on that side. Ever.

                                   

    But what about the future side? Now that’s a different story but only in as far as the appearance of the gate. Going to the future you would be able to turn around and see the actual gate because it could exist in the future. However, it would also be a parallel future. Why? Because of something that Sean seemed so concerned about—free will. Determinism. If the gate takes you one day into the future it is also possible to visit the future and then return and destroy the gate. If you do, how could you have visited the future? By now, you know the answer                                 

    So to review before going further -

    1. The front of the gate actually leads to parallel paths where the opening exits but not the gate itself.                     

    2. The back of the gate leads to parallel futures where the gate does exist.

                                   

    The way Sean wrote it is that you go through the gate and you see another one as if it has a copy in each version of space-time in the same exact spot. However it can't be in the exact same spot without adhering to the arrangement that I just described which in turn would not allow for Sean's exact scenario. You can see now why that wouldn't work. The reason he wrote it that way is because he was trying to figure out a way to write a CTC into his story to prove a point. We'll see later that this was even more problematic than I've revealed so far. It also leads to all kinds of false assumptions and erroneous results, as you are seeing now.

                            

    Another element that Sean missed is the issue of copies. You’ll remember that he mentioned the time traveler aligning himself with his past self. In the future direction you could see a copy of you because the day that the time machine was switched on it connected to the future next day. Unless something changes that future, you could be there as well to greet yourself coming through from the past. He only briefly mentions it when he first introduces the gate idea, but not in as far as when the time traveler comes along. However, the idea of the time traveler aligning himself with his past self is wrong because there is no past self that we see of the time traveler.

                                    

    Again, the futures are parallel because of free-will. Someone could cause the gate to shutdown cutting off access to the future but then how could the future have been there with the gate? All time travel involves parallel universes. You have to finish doing the work to see them, but the presence of paradoxical solutions is indicative of your not being finished with the work. And unlike what Sean says, it's not just free-will but randomness that can be introduced. Any type of random event could alter the future that was connected through the gate. For a better understanding of this it is important to notice this other unknown element of Sean's model - the three clocks.                             

    There's essentially a clock running at all times on the gate, the yesterday side and the tomorrow side. You can cheat time in either direction by going through the gate but you can also just wait like the time traveler did before he went through again. Multiple clocks (of this nature) means multiple universes because they could lead to multiple outcomes that are not consistent. There's nothing in physics that rules time travel out, and we know, at least from the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, that there's only one outcome observed per measurement. If time travel isn't ruled out then, but there is a constraint on multiple outcomes, those alternate outcomes must only be possible in parallel universes. There's no escaping it.                                                                                                                        

    So what about the time traveler and his closed CTC? First of all, unlike what Sean stated, the time traveler's life is not and could not only be made up of his going back and forth through the gate. Biology alone prevents that, another indication of not doing the work this subject requires.  What I mean is the the time traveler was obviously born, raised, etc. Also, each time he goes through the gate he's doing it again, but for the first time. Let me explain.

                                  

    According to Sean, the first time we see the time traveler is when he is existing the backside of the gate, returning from one day in the future. Sean has us decide to wait 24 hrs and then be surprised when the time traveler, who has spent this whole time loitering around the gate, just walks around and enters the front to go back to the past. What does this really mean? Remember those clocks I was talking about? When we saw the time traveler first arrive from the future there was a future version of ourselves that had just seen him enter the front of the gate to exit when we saw him. 24 hrs later, those versions of ourselves are on their next day in the future, 48 hours ahead of where we were when we saw the time traveler first pull his stunt. Sean makes the mistake of assuming that we will see the very same event repeat, and we will be the original witnesses, but we aren't. The original witnesses, ourselves 24 hours ahead, are then 48 hrs ahead of where we were when we first saw the time traveler. I can  prove it easily - if we first saw the time traveler when he came from the future, then we can't be the same ones that saw him leave the future. I can prove that too - when Sean has us see him exit the next day and go to the past, we already knew he had done that before but were surprised to see how he had done it. Once you have space-time geometries that introduce copies you have parallel universes in the mix. We know those copies of ourselves are real because that's where the time traveler came from. This also raises an additional issue - if anyone is a copy in this scenario, it's not him. After all, he's the one time traveling. We saw him come from the future and we saw him go to the past the next day and at any point along that timeline of events he was without a duplicate of himself, the way that Sean wrote it. When he was in the future, he was with our copies. Then he leaves and comes to the past to be with us. Then the next day, he returns to the past. Unlike Sean's characterization, the time traveler isn't aligning himself with any copy - he's the constant original.

                                   

    This is where we get to the next level of erroneous assumptions. Sean says that the time traveler must align with his past self, but that would be impossible. Sean also says that we see only one time traveler. In reality, that would not be true either. At some point, the time traveler must have arrived at the gate for the first time. He goes through to the past and hangs out. Depending on when he returns, to the future, if he would, he could run into a copy of himself. For example, if he returns at the same instant that he left, he would pass himself. Then if he turned back around he could hang out in the past with himself, at least using the logic that Sean uses, he could. Guess what? That would be yet another erroneous assumption. The reason is that it is easy to think of going back and forth from past to future through this gate but what that neglects is the attention to the fact about those clocks I mentioned and the fact that the gate is always open and not selecting specific dates. It's an engineering thing and here's how it works -


                                 

    1. It's Tuesday. Time traveler goes through gate to Monday for the first time and stays for 24 hours.

                                 

    2. The opening to the gate stays open during that time. 24 hours passes on the other side as well.

                                 

    3. On that other side of the gate it is now Wednesday and he is not on that other side.

                                 

    4. Sean would say that if the time traveler walked around and went through the gate on the past side, he would merge with his past self, who had been through the gate the first time.  However, this is where his copy shows up to go through the gate for its first time. There is no merging, and we also see that now the time traveler has a copy because I didn't forget to add that first event of time travel for him.                                                                                                                                                      

      Another mistake in this scenario is the whole issue that the time traveler has created some kind of CTC. Remember what Sean said about determining the nature of time by making assumptions? This is where specifically, such an approach goes awry. In fact, as you will see later, this whole affair has gone terribly awry (yes, it gets worse). Sean assumed that the time traveler would leave the gate area and then we would see him on the next day to make his entrance through the front. Instead he hung around the gate until the next day and then went through at the exact time that we saw him emerge through the other side, the day before. Because of this, Sean says there is a CTC. What's the difference between his hanging around and going, say a mile down the street and waiting to the next day, and then coming back? Nothing. OK, the difference is a mile trip in either direction, but we still have the same individual doing the same act. The reason why it is the same individual is because we don't see another version of him showing up to go through to the past. The idea of him hanging around the gate to go through again isn't the point. The point is that we never see another version of him showing up to go through first. As a result, the description only appears to suggest a CTC but it is only the world-line of the time traveler that suggests this, and not the space-time geometry of the gate itself. Just as the paradoxical etchings of M.C. Escher [11] prove, an idea on paper doesn't make it real.                                                                                                                                                            

    I understand fully that there are going to be those who will protest and insist that CTCs cause causality to break down, but I would argue back that the point is what caused the CTC in the first place? Causality can't be broken before there is an alleged cause.                               

    As I've already pointed out that a CTC must have an entry way or it's of no consequence, and probably couldn't exist anyway, allow me to reiterate that the gate is the thing that is manipulating space-time, not the time traveler. In other words, you, as the guardian, could simply run the time traveler off and prevent him from using the gate. No more CTC effect. At all. Sean was attempting to use this feature of the story to create a case for some unnamed force that would prevent such actions that would lead to inconsistencies. He claimed that there was a vexing problem to figuring out what it was that forces us to make consistent choices in time travel scenarios. The reason that it is such a vexing problem is that there is no such thing. The solution is the many-worlds model. Logic dictates it. The math reveals it and the geometries describe it. It is impossible to construct, design, conceive or imagine a time travel scenario where parallel universes do not emerge as a solution.

                               

    CTCs themselves are the obvious elements of such a solution. Where is everyone else when someone amongst us decides to go into a CTC? The same place we were before. Where are they? Are they in the same space-time continuum as we are? No? Well, what would you call it then? That's right. And as for what a CTC actually is, it is a curved region of space-time that returns to a point in its past, but in a parallel universe. How can I say this with such certainty? By introducing a video camera.                                                                                                                   

    Upon approaching the CTC, if a person begins to video their experience, when they arrive in the so-called point of origin, back in time, they may very well run into themselves but that encounter will not be recorded in the video when they first entered the curve if they play it back. It will be for their copy's video but not the original person. I'm imagining a region where it takes some time to complete the journey back, even if it's only minutes. Once they hit that point that they had entered before, they will see themselves but of course that moment will not be recorded when the video is played back, showing their initial entry, because when they first entered they didn't see themselves. Meanwhile, because of free-will, i.e. randomness, this time traveling person can do something else once they arrive back at that entry to the CTC because it is connected to a point in space-time which is also connected to another space-time. In other words, if there's a way in, there is also a way out and that way out will lead to an actual parallel universe. Imagine a roundabout on a street and you will see what I mean if you then imagine it rotating (to imitate the curvature in space-time) so that you end up at the same point that you entered but now, instead of in the future (at the normal rate of elapsed time) you are in the past and seeing yourself entering the roundabout. Again, you didn't see yourself doing that when you first entered and so…well, you know the answer by now.                                                                               

    Now, what if it's like walking up to a mirror - a configuration where the travelers would see themselves approaching the point of entry as if they were about to leave, just as they were actually entering? That one, because the connection or gate or what have you, could be blocked or the travelers prevented from going all the way in, which would leave a different kind of paradox (where did the copies of the travelers come from then?) and would be the result of  travelers from a parallel universe initiating the action first, instead of the other way around.

                                   

    Now, I will reveal the biggest error, one that completely destroys everything about Sean's example. It even invalidates the things that I've said about how the Sean's gate would work. Why? Because on closer inspection I realized that under no circumstances could a gate configuration, as he describes, work. I left the previous deconstructions and analysis in because I am also trying to show the kind of thought processes and scrutiny that temporal mechanics demand if you want serious, accurate solutions. It just turns out that in double checking my work I saw the fatal flaw that killed the entire idea, and it goes right back to the way that I described Riemann slits working in Figure 1&2

                                    

    Sean describes a single gate performing double duty - linking a day in the future on one side and a day in the past on the other. A single gate would not be able to  perform this function. A single gate would appear as it does in Figures 1 & 2. When creating a Riemann slit in space-time there is a front and back to it. In other words, you can walk around it, 360 degrees, at its destination point, as well as its point of origin. That means that an opening to the past must be an opening to the past on both sides of the gate in in the space of its origin only. Sean's gate functions like a spiral through time. If you keep walking through the right side, you keep going back a day in time. If you walk through the left, you go to the future by a day each time. In reality, regardless of which way you walk, you can only go in one temporal direction and once you go there you can only return from whence you came. There is no going further in either direction

                            

    In order to have the type of geometry indicated by Sean, you must have two gates - the second which would connect to the future, and to accomplish the type of operation Sean describes. These two gates must be separated by some distance, so that their separate operations don't interfere, but could still function as a single gate and, in fact, fit perfectly into Sean's basic design. Or so I thought... I've already given you a clue as to the ultimate dead end to this idea.

                                    

    Placing the two gates close together results in the following configuration in regards to space-time linkages:



                          1. The past gate has a face that allows you to enter from the front. The face on the opposite side is not seen and faces the hidden face of the other gate.

                       2. The future gate has a face that allows you to enter from the back of this arrangement. As already stated, its opposing side is hidden and faces the hidden side of  the past gate.

                        3. Entry into either gate places you in exactly the type of configuration as Sean describes as when you are in the past or future and walk around to the opposite side of where you entered - you will be able to look through and see beyond the hidden side of the gate through which you came and see the space between it and the second gate. For easier understanding, take two exact coins and place their opposing sides together, with some space between them. Heads is the front/past side, and tales is the back/future side.

                                                                                                                              

    Like I said, or so I thought. What won't work is the repetitious going back and forth, from past to future. Let me explain. Sean's configuration allows you to go to the past and then return the next day. Or even keep going to the past. The reality is that it won't work, not even with the version I created, because each gate only allows you to go the past by one day or the future by one day but not both. The problem is that Sean just arbitrarily came up with this idea without working out the details of the space-time geometry he was actually describing. Remember how I said that a Riemann slit connects to the other destination so that you can walk around it and look back through? So if our time traveler walks out the past gate, he can return through that gate just as described - back to the future because that's what's in the interior of that gate. In other words, as far as the story goes, you only need one gate - but it won't work both ways like Sean has it - it will just work the way a Riemann slit would. For a trip to the future, you would use the future gate and the return would obviously allow you to go back to the past but there would be no going further either. The time traveler scenario would then work like this:


                                  1. We see the time traveler exit the past gate opening.


                                 2. He waits around 24 hours and then goes back through the past opening and arrives a day in the future.

                                  

    Huh? Right. Remember the clocks? 24 hours has gone by both outside and inside the gate. By going through again he only returns to the future he came from which is now 24 hours ahead. He can't go back to the past again by going back through the gate - he's already in the past it connects to. The same would hold true if he were to try a trip to the future through the future gate. Each gate opens to mutually exclusive space-times. So that means there is not even the chance to describe a CTC in any form using Sean's idea. At least not as anything more than a rhetorical exercise. But physics, especially trying to explain advanced concepts, should be more than merely rhetorical. It should be accurate, especially when being used to describe "new rules".

                                     

    Sean closes his article by saying, "The alternative answer to the puzzles raised by closed time-like curves is probably that they simply cannot exist".

                                    

    I would suggest, instead, that the puzzles cease to exist once you truly understand CTCs.


                           References

                                     

    [1] S. Carroll,  How Time Travel Works, Discover Magazine, March 2010              

    [2] R. L. Mallett, Weak gravitational field of the electromagnetic radiation in a ring laser, Phys. Lett. A 269, 2000 

    [3] P.K. Townsend, Black Holes, Lecture Notes 1992 ArXiv http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/9707012v1                                

    [4] M. Barnes,  Avoiding Hidden Assumption Traps When Thinking Outside the Box, Mars Society Convention Proceedings August 2004          

    [5] M. Kaku,  Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension, Anchor Books Doubleday 1994   

    [6] D. Gordan Smith, Eyewitness Account of Hitler's WWI Years Found, Spiegel Online International                          

    [7] S.W. Hawking, The chronology protection conjecture. Phys. Rev. D46, 603-611. (1992)                             

    [8] M. Barnes, Answering A Kid's Question that the Shuttle STS-127 Astronauts Couldn't:"Here's what happens Cameron, if you fly into a black hole  July 23, 2009                                                 

                              tedtalks.ning.com/profiles/blogs/space-shuttle-endeavor-crew

    [9] J. Gribbin, Why Time Travel Is Possible http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/welcome.html  School of Life Sciences, University of Sussex                          

    [10] A.J.S. Hamilton, Black Holes, http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/phys5770_08/bh.pdf Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado at Boulder                     

    [11] Schattschneider, Doris. M.C. Escher: Visions of Symmetry, New York, N.Y. : Harry N. Abrams, 2004 

    *Special Note:

    Although so far I have not been accused of being biased against

    Sean Carroll, I would point out that such is not the case. In fact,

    I am personally amused to recall that May 23, 2008, I vigorously defended

    the choice of Scientific American to run an article of his concerning 

    time running backwards in other universes (in relation to ours). You

    can read it yourselves at 

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-cosmic-origins-of-t... beginning with Befell's comment at 

    02:29 AM on 05/23/08 (the next section of comments) , and then mine under the firm's name AET RaDAL, directly

    below that. The point is that I care more about the subject of time and 

    time travel than I do about personalities. The subject deserves rigorous

    analysis and vigorous debate. What prompted my defense of Sean 

    was the suggestion that his article in Scientific American was offensive

    to "rational-minded people" and should not have been published.  

    That kind of attack, quite frankly, I will never let go unanswered.



     



                                                                                                           


















































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































    Comments

    Marshall
    The only way such a "gate" can be made into a time machine is already known, and does not follow your rules.
    Imagine having a Reimann Slit here today, side-by-side; Slit A and Slit B. Travel into A you come out B, travel into B you come out A. One takes Slit B, loads it on a starship, while leaving Slit A in place.

    After traveling at relativistic speeds the two slits will be out of time-sync. Bring B back home and traveling into it will bring you out A at an earlier time.

    Think of two clocks welded to the frames, the time on the clock on Slit B will be the time at A you will arrive at.

    To completely duplicate the original "gate" one needs two pair, Slit A-1 and A2, and B-1 and B-2.
    B-2 sitting next to A-1 give your your to-yesterday and to-tomorrow doors.

    MarshallBarnes
    Actually, KAVLEC, 

    You've made a  very common error - you didn't read the article. The "rules" referred to were the title used by Discover magazine, as I stated in the opening paragraph of the article. The "gate" was not my idea - it was Sean Carroll's. That's why his name is in the title. No where in my paper is it discussed how to make the gate a time machine and neither does Sean in his. Despite how the gate may operate, which is what I was writing about, the gate itself was a hypothetical device devised by Sean. I was following his premise about how it would function as a time machine and not how to make it a time machine. Big difference.

    As for your example of how you think it would work, that's a variation of the Kip Thorne wormhole time machine model, which is now outdated because back in 2004 I was able to show conclusively, at a science conference in Chicago, the obvious reason why it wouldn't work, based on research I had done the year before. You see, there's this little problem that was overlooked about what time dilation really does and doesn't do...but I'm leaving that for a future project that is in the works.

    You might also notice that Sean has a single gate or slit. That sets up the entire operation in as far as being a time machine, which is what I had to deal with. If Sean had used two gates, I would have started there. As far as it went, I thought that the operation that he described would in fact require two gates but as I stated in much detail (you might have caught that if you had read the article), that wouldn't even save his model. Your configuring them into 4 instead of two changes nothing because you're ignoring how they would open up into the other spaces and the fact my two gates connect through hyperspace essentially the same way as your 4. You've also forgotten that the model you're copying supposedly connects you to the past so how are you going to get the future gate to work, hot shot? You see, it's a lot harder that just quoting a 20 year old model, that was wrong in the first place, and assuming that you can just cut and paste it into anything you want, as if I haven't read all the major time travel physics theories already. And I want to point out that Sean's article was challenging in that by ignoring how to make the gate a time machine, but just stating how it would work, he allowed himself to create a scenario that was highly imaginative and which I found to be the most challenging thought problem on the subject of time travel that I've tackled in quite a while. For that I am grateful to him.
    You see KAVALEC, you are forgetting that just because someone says that such-and-such an opening will lead to such-and-such a place, doesn't make it so. Time travel theory is not the same as time travel fantasy. If you can't describe accurately how that opening would look in 4 dimensional space, then you haven't described anything of consequence, which is exactly what was wrong with Sean's gate to begin with, it's just that his mistake wasn't trivial, which made it interesting.

    So, aside from the little relativistic trip to cause time dilation, all you've done is state something that was already in my paper, which I then ruled out specifically because of how it would look in 4 dimensional space. You might want to review those diagrams since you clearly haven't paid attention to them. And, you might want to try visualizing that relativistic trip on the rocket with that slit once more. Since we know where the openings of all slits are at all times, uh, just when does one suddenly exist in the past...?

    But thanks for stopping by anyway...

     



    Quote:"(NEW! As of 3/4/2010, see special *note about Sean Carroll after References at the bottom...)"

    Is it me, or has someone borrowed the Tardis again?

    A date is posted in February 2010 showing as of 3rd April 2010

    Or is this just the weird way you Americans do date sequences?

    In UK, day, month, year i.e. increasing in size - why does US sandwich days between month and year...?

    Weird!......Beam me up Scotty

    Aitch

    MarshallBarnes
    Giggle...
    You through me there for a moment. Yeah, here in the U.S. it's usually month, day, year. Probably because we are in the month longer than the day and many things are done around 30 day cycles. As a result, the month is the first to be designated, then the day and finally the year. That's just my guess. But you may well note that the February date posted on the article isn't just February 2010 but February 16, 2010. Thus the date for the new notice follows the already established precedent set by the opening of the article, albeit in numerical fashion.

    Thanks for the morning hiccup!
    Marshal

    Just because Sean calls his device a single gate doesn't make it so. Clearly the parts are separated in space-time, and the effect calls for two passages with a total of four end-points. As for your claim of having researched the Kip Thorne model, I would love to hear how you built it. Until then, I for one won't call it "research".

    You seem to have failed to notice that once we have one Kip-Thorne-gate nothing would stop us from building more and using the first to transport all or part of the new ones. This lets us construct the gate described.

    Clearly Sean made several assumptions which lead to contradictions, i.e. bad assumptions. Unfortunately your own assumption - that the device on day zero must somehow begin its existence fully functional - fares no better.

    But keep up the thought process, it's good exercise.

    MarshallBarnes
    KAVALEC:

    You've got to be kidding me, right? You're saying that just because Sean says his device is a single gate doesn't make it so? It does if that's what he says. That doesn't mean that it would produce the space-time geometry that he says it would, but that's a whole different issue. Just like I can prove your model wouldn't produce the space-time geometry that you claim it would. For example, I see how you conveniently dodged my point that your model wouldn't create a future path at all, despite the fact that you claim it would. The devil is in the details, isn't it?

    If you're so right then produce the space-time diagram that proves it, so we can all see how smart you really are. Of course, once you do, it will be easy to analyze and deconstruct it to see if it really works, and you could end up seeing your big idea getting sucked right down a black hole...

    "As for your claim of having researched the Kip Thorne model, I would love to hear how you built it. Until then, I for one won't call it "research".

    That was a real hoot. You for one? You for one? Like what you think really makes a difference?
    Your snide comment about how my researching Kip's model should have resulted in my constructing his wormhole time machine only hurts your credibility here. I know that we're talking theoretical physics here, and because I did research Kip's model thoroughly I know that it was theorized with the caveat that it might be something that a sufficiently advanced civilization might produce. In other words, there's no intention about trying to build it any time soon. Here's the abstract http://authors.library.caltech.edu/9262/ to prove it, which I'm sure you've not ever seen before, let alone the paper. If you had researched it at all, you would've at least known that. But then again, you don't seem to know the difference between research and practical development...

    There's a difference between fantasy and theory, KAVALEC, and knowing what you're talking about and just playing fast and loose with facts and ideas that you've gleaned from some pop sci programs. That's what you're doing with your suggestion that I've failed to notice what could be done with Kip's wormholes. And what you completely don't comprehend is the fact that the only time travel that they claim to provide for is to the past which means that you still wouldn't be able to produce the future connection past your present point in order to produce Sean's gate. If you knew how to do space-time diagrams you would see for yourself how that idea falls apart, but it seems that might be above your grade level. Hence your nonsensical remark :

    "Unfortunately your own assumption - that the device on day zero must
    somehow begin its existence fully functional - fares no better".

    Huh? This is like you're eavesdropping in on a conversation that you're not hearing correctly and then making assumptions about it. You're making assumptions about how the device should function as a device - without any information at all, because the model isn't about how the device would work from an engineering point of view - beyond its effects on space-time. It's all about those effects on space-time. Notice how Sean is talking about closed time-like curves? That's what it's all about. Even Sean presents the gate as fully functional and you're in no position to comment otherwise. It's Sean's model. Not mine and certainly not yours. The only thing we can do is comment on how he says it would behave, based upon the way that he sets it up.

    I mean, use your brain here. What, on day one the device wouldn't be fully functional? Then it wouldn't be working right and thus would be inconsequential. It couldn't even be called day one! All you're doing is looking for some way that you can show off that you've seen something that I, nor Sean, saw. Sorry. Not happenin'.

    So, I would suggest that you quit watching Star Trek or Stargate SG-1 and start reading real physics texts that pertain to nontrivial space-time geometries and similar topics, like these
    http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9710120
    http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9710001
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.0332
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0910.3582
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.0567
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.4592
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.2696
    http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0701024

    just to get your brain used to thinking, instead of just repeating stuff that you've heard but haven't thought through. It only makes you look bad, especially since you couldn't even begin to plot out the stuff you're talking about. And we all will be waiting to see if you can man up to that one...

    I don't mind discussing theory, but thoughtless quips from a physics wannabe with a username that sounds like a 1950s Russian sci-fi movie robot, aren't exercise for me - they're a waste of time. And since, unlike Julian Barbour, I know that time is real, then that's not a good thing...







    Amateur Astronomer
    "the mere act of opening a path to the past, in most cases, would be inconsistent with the historical record"

    The historical record doesn't know whether or not a path was opened to the past. Maybe a path was opened but not used as intended due to a last minute decision by the cabinet ministers. Then the inconsistency fails on that account, but the path would create a branching in the flow of time with two versions of history, for a while at least until one of them experienced decoherence.

    Consider the consequences of killing Hitler in World War I. What would that history produce twenty years later? Enrico Fermi would still be in Italy building his atomic pile there, and 90% of the world's nuclear technology would be in Germany. The Axis powers would have atomic weapons, star ships, and time travel at the beginning of World War II. The outcome of that would not produce an independent state of Israel in the Levant.

    So what would the cabinet say considering the cost both ways? It’s not an easy choice. As usual the ministers would debate the issue until the assassin had taken aim, then make a quick phone call with their final decision.

    If the decision was to kill Hitler, then that branch of history would not produce a pathway for the assassin. At that point the uncertainty principle would decide what to do next, and would find a way to balance the equations within one Planck time. The remedy as you pointed out is to make a branch in history with two different versions. Heisenberg uncertainty principle can do it by lending enough vacuum energy to construct the entangled wave functions.. This is not so difficult. Every country has a different version of history, because they don’t agree about what is happening now or how to record for future readers. It really isn’t certain which version will prevail in the distant future. It is certain that some of the versions will fade away, because the uncertainty principle puts a time limit on the loan.

    After the elapsed time, the uncertainty principle must decide whether or not to kill Hitler with Chlorine gas and promote that branch of history, or let him live through a malfunction of the assassin’s gate, a mistaken identity, or shots that went astray, with a small rewriting of history. Either way the vacuum energy books are balanced at least to the point that hyperspace is not cluttered with an infinite number of branches. All of the paradoxes can be resolved by the uncertainty principle and the lending of vacuum energy.

    If you don’t like this version of history, then I have another one that says Lenin made peace with the Bund, and Stalin got the bomb first.

    In the writing of history I would assume that a great many pathways were opened for contingency purposes. Some were used and some were not. So the creation of a pathway should be considered as a natural event and not one to discredit any version of history. The hyperspace of many pathways is the only view of science that predicts survival of the human race beyond the life time of our sun.

    What did the ministers say about Hitler? I guess it was a vote of 5 to 4 in favor of shooting him.
    MarshallBarnes
    Jerry:
    What ministers? I feel like I just read an excerpt from a revised version of the Time Machine but written by someone who had been inspired by Dr. Who...

    BTW, if  I said the quote you cited (I haven't the time to check it), then what I meant was that the idea of going back in time and not causing a paradox is a fallacy because the mere act of going back is paradoxical. Of course the way you explain it, takes care of that, which is what I was saying, without invoking the energy vacuum and uncertainty principle in particular. The EWH was enough for my purposes.

    Thanks for the comment...
    Amateur Astronomer
    A comment on the reference that was given above:
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.2696

    Non linear control systems do not violate causality. They just have new rules that don't occur in linear systems. Non linear systems are widely used in industry and have no fundamental restriction or logic violations.

    Closed time loops just have some new rules too. There is no fundamental argument against them. They are just additional input signals to the causality.

    One of the rules is a limit on amplification of the return signal compared to the other inputs and efficiency losses. That is to say the time loops are allowed to participate in a control system as long as they don't exhaust the resources to cope with the inputs.

    One of the other references covers this topic in a different way.
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.0567


    In simpler words it says that some time travel activities are allowed if they meet certain physical rules in a way that is not self defeating. This is in agreement with logic of industrial control systems.

    Time travel is allowed in cases where information is being collected. Causality is not violated because our histories don't know whether or not these activities were original features or added at a later time. Physical activities are also allowed as long as they are not self defeating.

    It's time for science to put causality into perspective for time travel and move on to some new limitations. Industrial control systems give a lot of clues about what comes next.

    Amateur Astronomer
    Time Machine and Dr Who are fiction adventure but give no inspiration for opinions about science.

    Richard Feynman is a better source. Sum over paths method is firmly established as the science that predicts the outcome of particle interactions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum-over-paths
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation

    Either way it is interpreted, choosing probability particles or probability waves, the outcome is exactly the same. To get a correct prediction of experimental results it is necessary to include the possibility that the waves and particles can travel by more than one path and in fact do travel by more than one path. The pathways include visits to many worlds, and journeys forward and backward in time. Leaving any of these things out of the calculation gets the wrong prediction.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

    The familiar application is the interference pattern of the two slit experiment when a group of particles or waves interfere with each other after passing through different slits in a barrier. That’s the easy part. Now for the hard part. Experiments found that the interference pattern still occurs if only one particle or one wave is sent to the barrier at a time.

    A lot of work has been done on time reversal and symmetry for physcal processes under reversal of CPT.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-symmetry
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPT_symmetry

    Science uses terminology that puts the topics into a scholarly format to avoid the public uproar that accompanies the emotional appeal of more familiar names.

    I read all sorts of things and consider every opinion, but my scientific opinions and all of my mathematical models are firmly rooted in the science of famous pioneers. I tend to combine topics and methods in ways that were not originally intended and sometimes use the familiar name that main stream science has carefully left out.

    From sum over paths there is experimental evidence to support an opinion of hyper space and super dimensional physics. A huge number of microscopic pathways can be inferred from the particle experiments. A time traveler does not have to open a pathway. The path is already there, but it is very small from our point of view. The view will change when we travel at light speed or apply an equivalent field effect curvature to a particular path way. It is the Lorentz contraction operating in reverse, or the general relativity bending of space time by force fields.

    The science of hyperspace and many pathways is very well established in the main stream, but described by other words to make the topics acceptable to scholars and polite society.

    For a path forward, science is badly in need of a description of the vacuum, how much power it has, how the energy is partitioned to give nearly flat space, and how the zero point responds to conserve energy and momentum while propagating particles and waves from one place to another.

    You just don’t find these things in Dr Who.
    MarshallBarnes
    Yeah, uh thanks for the physics refresher course, there Jerry...not that I didn't already KNOW that stuff. The Dr. Who reference was in response to your comments:
    "Consider the consequences of killing Hitler in World War I. What would that history produce twenty years later? Enrico Fermi would still be in Italy building his atomic pile there, and 90% of the world's nuclear technology would be in Germany. The Axis powers would have atomic weapons, star ships, and time travel at the beginning of World War II. The outcome of that would not produce an independent state of Israel in the Levant.

    So what would the cabinet say considering the cost both ways? It’s not an easy choice. As usual the ministers would debate the issue until the assassin had taken aim, then make a quick phone call with their final decision."


    and 


    "What did the ministers say about Hitler? I guess it was a vote of 5 to 4 in favor of shooting him."

    Those types of comments you don't find in physics books of most any type, but you would in something like Dr. Who...

    You know, there are some people who believe that the Nazis had an atomic bomb by the end of WWII in Europe, did do time travel experiments and some of them (Vril mostly) left in starships for Aldebaran while others went to Neuschwabenland in Antarctica where they perfected the saucer shape crafts that some people see and think are extraterrestrial.

    Just an observation, that's all...
    Amateur Astronomer
    Thanks for the comments .Marshall.

    Maybe I should make a better distinction between parts that are written for science and parts that are written for fun. You probably know the difference, but some of the readers might not. The fun parts are inspired by science, but they might look like they came from elsewhere.

    I don't believe the Nazis got the technology, although they supported the research and tried to gain control of it. Hitler definitely did expect to get the power, right up to the end of his life.

    Vril and Thule did research and got support from famous people, none of whom got a return on their investment. The organizations still exist to some extent within a business study group of a chamber of commerce type operation. They provide copies of some of the Schappeller related documents in German, that were out of public view for a long time and are only available from a few places now. I don’t endorse them or subscribe to the Schappeller claims, but I do read the documents as a policy of reading everything and listening to every opinion. Here is their link.

    http://www.sealandgov.org/

    Schappeller acquired a complete operational machine that he only had a low level of understanding about. His writings that try to explain the technology prove that he didn’t know about the underlying science that was published a few years earlier. His financial records in the Austrian State Archives show that Schappeller carried on a part of the Thule program after the scientists died from war and gamma radiation. He operated it as a fraud because he wasn’t able to duplicate the magnetic electret. The history of the machine ended in 1938 with a technical report from Cyril Davison, and a letter from the British Navy that they had lost interest in it. Davison published a book in 1955 that caused a brief stir in the aerospace industry and popular magazines. His report of 1938 was lost and only referred to a in a short news paper article of German language. Davson’s book was an attempt to replace the missing report in his retirement years. The report was found recently in the Austrian State Archives and can be copied for a modest fee. Another source for Davson’s report and part of the long lost Schappeller archives, much of which is in German, is the CD offered for sale by Dr. Michael Damböck Verlag.

    http://franken-buecher.de/karlschappellersmaterialsammlungaufcdr-buch-2564.html

    It doesn’t add much to science, but provides an insight to history.

    There is no reason for me to subscribe to the Aldebaran or Neuschwabenland theories. These are probably just a part of the smoke screen to cover up what really happened in a time of war.

    For one thing Aldebaran is a red giant near the end of it’s life and not a good place to live. There are much better choices. Neuschwabenland is verifiable and has not been verified.

    There are rather good reasons of the scientific type to believe that the technology was developed, and just as good reasons of the historical type to believe the research teams didn’t deliver the results to their masters.

    As usual the public version of the story turned out to be wrong. The nuclear program in Western Germany and Norway was directed toward power plants for submarines, not nuclear weapons. After Poland joined NATO, we learned from Polish sources that Germany had 8 graphite moderated nuclear reactors operating in coal mines that are now part of Western Poland. They were intended for making weapons. Only 2 of the atomic piles were ever accounted for in the West. Presumably the Soviets got the other 6 atomic piles and used them to make weapons. There might still be some smoke screens attached to this story.

    Flying machines were reported by Allied bomber crews, and were published in the news of the time. In public they were called Foo Fighters. Government records called them Phoo Bombers. None of them committed an act of violence against Allied forces. So there is good reason to believe they were made in Germany, but were not operated under Nazi control. Early models were said to be unmanned because the LC resonance was lost by the proximity capacitance of a pilot.

    About 500 projects of the same type were supported by the US government, judging from the advertisements that were published for recruiting technical staff. There is no historical reason to believe the government acquired the technology, but plenty of scientific reasons to believe that some of the projects succeeded.

    When I give the mathematical equations, then for sure it is based on science. For other messages in text the readers will need to guess if it is written for science or for fun. The fun part is always inspired by science, history, and biographies of famous people.

    If you had your life to live over again or had a chance to change a past event by some type of time travel technology , would you risk what you have now for the chance of a better life, or would you settle for what you have now? Game show history predicts that the majority of people would take the chance.

    Time travel works both ways. If you had a choice of taking the chance to change your past, or a better chance to alter your future, which would you choose? For fun a competition like a chess game will be applied to this question. This game is played with rules where the players don't know where the opponents chess pieces are located, or what they will do next. One rule of the game is that if you go backward in time, your opponent has a better chance to find your chess pieces and discover your next moves. It's a game of Time Machine Chess, played for fun.

    Thanks again,
    Jerry
    KnightInExile
    Hello Marshall, I enjoyed reading your article on time travel. Although I'm not a physicist, I do have some basic understanding of the laws of physics. That being said, I agree with you about the impossibility of time traveler being able to change his past. If a time traveler were to successfully prevent his birth, he would not literally disappear out of existence like Marty McFly in the Back To The Future movies because that would be a major violation of conservation of energy. 1. Correct? Instead, he would enter a new timeline/parallel universe. Noticed that I said "enter" a new parallel universe and not creating a new one because creating a parallel universe is also a violation of conservation of energy as well. If parallel universes exist, they would have been created at the time of the Big Bang alongside our own universe. 2. What do you think? 3. Do you think it is also possible that when a time traveler goes to the past, he can never change it, but is simply a part of it? Best regards, Julian
    Hi Marshall

    I agree that all instances of time travel must involve something like 'parallel' universes, for the same reason; that there must be an initial time line to begin with and the inconsistencies begin (within the framework of a 4-dimensional space-time continuum) as soon as the time travel occurs (i.e., no need to evoke specific events such as killing your grandfather, etc). However, I think that the need for whole new universes, each time time-travel occurs, is unnecessary. All that is needed, is an extra dimension of time.

    So rather than requiring a multiverse to be the case, if time travel was possible, we just need a 5-dimensional space-time continuum (3 dimensions of space and 2 of time).

    For example, If we consider the time-line of one universe a string of cubes where each cube represents a moment in time, going back in time within a multiverse model simply creates a new string of cubes jutting out perpendicular to the original string - with the last cube of each string, each a present reality, and where all previous cubes are no longer in existence - they just exist as memories or records of history.

    Going back in time where time can have two dimensions, a new cube has to be made at the point the time travel is to, however this latest cube is now the only 'reality', all other cubes, even the ones that described the previous 'future', are no longer in existence. But of course this previous future time-line would only exist in the memories of the time-travelers. So rather than just having a past, there is a past-squared. But only the time travelers would be able to tell the difference.

    With the multiverse, there are an infinite amount of realities at any one time. In the 5-dimensional universe there is still just the one reality - now - the arrow of time still flows in one direction (rather than a 'halo' of time that would be the case with the multiverse), only that direction is a vector that's a combination of the two dimensions of time.

    MarshallBarnes
    Matt:
    You have some good ideas. The thing is that I deal specifically with the issues you raise in a book that I'm writing and I have to leave it for that. 

    I'm very busy these days, too busy to post here in fact. I might check replies every once and a while, but that's about it. 

    Take care...
    Ah well, do I get a free book then? lol

    There is also a physical concept that sounds exactly like a second dimension of time: 'Imaginary' time:

    "Imaginary time is difficult to visualize. If we imagine "regular time" as a horizontal line running between "past" in one direction and "future" in the other, then imaginary time would run perpendicular to this line as the imaginary numbers run perpendicular to the real numbers in the complex plane. However, imaginary time is not imaginary in the sense that it is unreal or made-up — it simply runs in a direction different from the type of time we experience. In essence, imaginary time is a way of looking at the time dimension as if it were a dimension of space: you can move forward and backward along imaginary time, just like you can move right and left in space." ~ Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time.

    Amateur Astronomer
    A high speed star ship is usually thought of as a time machine traveling forward in time, where the travelers return younger than the peers they left behind. Conventional wisdom doesn’t say how to go backward I time to recover the lost years. Space exploration has been delayed unnecessarily by opinions about how hard it is to do. Those conclusions were extrapolated from special relativity. The principles of stress and strain tell us that there is a limit to every type of resistance. Everything flexes, bends, or breaks under stress. Special relativity is only valid for space travel at low speeds. At extremely high speeds the properties we think of as constants must become variables in general relativity to satisfy the principles of stress and strain. The Dirac equation of energy and momentum can be integrated with no assumptions applied to the parameters like inertial resistance or light speed. When no assumptions are applied there are mathematical solutions of the Dirac equation that look like special relativity at lower speeds, and general relativity at higher speeds. Here the Dirac equation is written in an unusual form for proper (primed notation) measurements taken on the star ship where no assumptions are made about what is constant or variable. Mass m’ and light speed c’ are allowed to vary under the most extreme conditions. Proper momentum p’ is defined on the star ship. p’ = m’v’ The Dirac equation of momentum and energy is written for the star ship. E2 = (m’c’2)2 + (p’c’) 2 A boundary condition is applied of zero velocity at the beginning of the journey. Momentum is given in dimensionless form. p’/ moco = (m’/mo)(v’/co) The Dirac equation is written for the star ship in dimensionless form, substituting for proper momentum. (E’/Eo)2 = (m’/mo)2 (c’/co)2 ((c’/co)2 +(v’/co)2) Force and energy are related in the familiar way. dE’/Eo = (v’/co) d[(m’/mo)(v’/co)] One of the most mathematically consistent solutions is produced by a classical partition operator J. d(m’/mo) = J (m’/mo)(v’/co)d(v’/co) Boundary conditions modify the partition to give the solution set. ((c’/co)2 *)((c’/co)2 +(v’/co)2) = (1+ (v’/co)2)2 J = -1 m’/mo = EXP( -(1/2)( v’/co)2) Here is the solution graphed in terms of proper velocity and proper light speed. It can be thought of a property of space that applies to all high speed objects at least any that can do proper measurements.

     Approaching Light Speed

    Time t’ and distance r’ are specific to each star ship journey. A choice must be made for acceleration, thrust, or engine power. All three methods lead to predictions related to time travel. Constant acceleration a’ leads to a fairly normal prediction of travelers arriving at their intended destination on time and with their wits largely intact. It can be equal to about 97% of Earth gravity continuing for a period of years. a’ = co /yr’ The journey is faster and more interesting than is usually taught in school, but not so much different as to be astonishing or unrecognizable. Proper light speed increases as the star ship accelerates and becomes significant over a period of months. So the star ship never exceeds its proper light speed. Proper inertial mass decreases as proper velocity increases. v’/co = t’/yr’ r’/co (yr’) = (1/2) (t’/ yr’) 2 Engine power P’ and thrust force F’ increase at first, but decrease later as inertia decreases. P’/(Eo /yr’) = (E’/Eo)(v’/co) F’ /(mvo co /yr’) = (E’/Eo) One consequence of this case is that the Planck energy density increases and approaches infinite density after about 290 days of acceleration. The Dirac equation is interpreted to say that the star ship has less energy than was put into it, but the difference is accumulated in the vacuum of space around the starship. These are predictions that can eventually be tested, and not so much different from opinions other people have given in the past. So far time travel has not been predicted. A time travel scenario results when engine thrust force F’ is held constant while the inertial mass decreases. Again it is written for about 97% of Earth gravity at the beginning. F’ = (mo co /yr’ (t’/yr’) = (m’/mo)(v’/co) (r’/ co yr’) = (E’/Eo) -1 At a point during the flight, when v’>co, the star ship starts going backward in time, if the crew doesn’t reduce the thrust force when the inertial resistance is zero. A star ship will get lost in history if the crew is not aware of the time reversal. It sounds a little bit like the story in Ezekiel, a flying machine lost in time, on fire, and in great distress, used as a warning to future generations. Constant engine power P’ leads to a more extreme case of time travel prediction. Once again the power represents 97% of Earth gravity at the beginning. P’ = (mo co 2/yr’ (t’/yr) = (E’/Eo) - 1 d(r’/(co yr’) =(v’/co) d(t’/yr’) In such extreme cases it is doubtful that the Dirac equation will adequately describe the bending of space in general relativity. So far all of these results are predicted from ordinary engines giving Earth like inertial acceleration, force, and power operating over a period of several years. There are other Equations that predict faster star travel can be accomplished with gravity induction engines, where the crew does not feel the stress and strain of inertial acceleration. In the gravity induction cases there are predictions of rapid travel in space and rapid travel forward or backward in time, but that requires testing in a star ship. NASA occasionally does a study for star travel looking for technical advancements in break through propulsion to make the journeys faster. Other times NASA does secret work for the military. One project recently involved studies of preparations for future military expeditions. Here is a picture from one of the NASA BPP web pages with an artist’ view of high speed travel.

    NASA BPP

    The next big discoveries in physical science will be at high speed in a star ship. Will they be public information or military secrets?
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    I guess it might depend on whether Julian Assange and/or Wikileaks are still operational.
    Make love not war
    Amateur Astronomer
    The second equation should have prime (‘) notation on the energy. E’2 = (m’c’2)2 + (p’c’) 2 Aitch, you may be on the right track about needing some different ways of looking at time travel. The changes I am proposing in the standard model are fairly extensive at the high velocity end of the scale. I’m suggesting that a high speed object curves space with it’s accumulated kinetic energy, such that a lot of the energy is residing in the local space instead of in the object. My graph passes a lot of tests for consistency, and it might represent a fundamental property of nature. It is derived from well known work of other people, with popular assumptions removed to see what it becomes when there is no bias applied to the answer. I’m suggesting that there could be a new revolution in science with a lot of young scientists becoming famous for contributions to it. None of the theories I’m aware of come close to describing the high energy end of the graph. Only a test in space will able to set the new direction in science. Notice that I solved the easiest form of the equations where all of the measurements are proper in the moving frame. It is a much harder problem to solve in the relativistic frame. There would be field equations of general relativity, but with no constants.
    Aitch
    Marshall/Jerry

    Since you both have different perspectives on the topic, can I ask both of you to comment on Peter Lynds' theory -
     “It is postulated that there is not a precise static instant in time underlying a dynamical physical process at which the relative position of a body in relative motion or a specific physical magnitude would theoretically be precisely determined.”
    “Time enters mechanics as a measure of interval, relative to the clock completing the measurement. Conversely, though it is generally not realized, in all cases a time value indicates an interval of time, rather than a precise instant… Regardless of how small and accurate the value is made however, it cannot indicate a precise static instant in time at which a value would theoretically be precisely determined, because there is not a precise static instant in time underlying a dynamical physical process. If there were, all physical continuity, including motion and variation in all physical magnitudes would not be possible, as they would be frozen static at that precise instant, remaining that way….”
    “It is the relative order of events that is relevant, not the direction of time itself. It is not possible to assert using a model of the universe that includes a description of the sum over histories or path integrals of the actual structure of space-time, that time goes in any direction, let alone at 90 degrees to real time or linear time and takes on some of the properties, or is identical to that of spatial dimensions at approximately Planck scale … 1023 cm, 10-43 s[econds], while still being bounded by the big bang (or possible big crunch, in a now seemingly obsolete closed universe) singularities in real or linear time, but having no boundaries in imaginary time. Neither real nor imaginary time exist in a consistent physical description, as time does not go in any direction.”


    google doc preview

    http://tinyurl.com/29l9lpk

    pdf

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0310055

    I think the thing which attracts me about his theory is, he's the first I've seen who queries, as I do, the realm of the imaginary arising out of Gauss and Euler .... I mean, I've used it, in calculus, but when it comes to reality....apart from the imaginary in my mind, I find it hard to 'imagine/visualise' imaginary dimensions, or imaginary reverse time or acceleration ....does it go at a tangent to the real, opposite to it, e.g.  -3x-3 =9, but is it a solid cube?, or was it just a construct for mathematical theoretical purposes?, as that is where the imaginary seems to get used again and again....Peter Lynds seems to think like me, that it's weird...wrong, even

    Thanks

    Aitch
    MarshallBarnes
    Henry:
    Peter Lynds is wrong. I carefully reviewed his work in my afore mentioned book. Right from the start he blows it - "Time enters mechanics as a measure of interval", where his use of the word "time" is regulated to meaning only that measurement when in reality time is the interval. Moreover, precise instances are measured all of the time and so his assertion that if there were static precise instants, that no motion would be possible, is ridiculous.

    Lynds falls prey to at least two of the four major issues when dealing with temporal mechanics- semantics and comprehension. He uses words the wrong way and he doesn't comprehend the ramifications of doing so.

    The fact that he can't grasp complex space-time geometries has no relevance to their existence. His comment about time going 90 degrees to "real time" shows that he's out of his depth - there is no "real time" unless you are observing outside of the block universe. Otherwise, it's all relative just as Einstein said. Time from the sum over histories model is not imaginary in any case. Imaginary time is mathematical, although its used to some degree in cosmology but again, more for caluculations as opposed to anything really concrete. It's not something that we have evidence for and his talking about imaginary time going at 90 degrees to real time is accurate but only mathematically, but the minute he starts bringing sum over histories into the same discussion he is confusing things because the alternate histories of that model are said to split at 90 degrees. So he has apples and oranges and saying they are the same because they are both fruit. 

    The other use for imaginary time is in quantum mechanics, but again, for doing statistical calculations. 

    As for the direction of time, time only goes in one direction although it is possible for other space-times to flow in the opposite direction relative to ours but if you were in them, time would still be going forward, as usual, for your experience. Gold was wrong about time going in reverse if the universe were to begin contraction as Hawking found out and had to admit in his book, A Brief History of Time. The real story is in how Hawking missed the obvious clues that Gold was wrong, which I will deal with next year in an upcoming project elsewhere, due to be released in multiple media formats. 
    Aitch
    Thanks, Marshall

    I seem to be linking to this quite a lot recently, but I remembered I already did an article here

    http://www.science20.com/aitchs_hangout_come_and_join_me_wont_you/blog/e...

    particularly relevant is the bit about Ian Lungold's series of videos about the Mayan Calendar

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugNsuYH987o

    The essence of the Mayan Calendar, is a different perspective on time and history, which links directly to human consciousness and individual and collective spiritual growth, which I feel very connected to....

    I can't help feeling that we're looking at time travel from a wrong viewpoint, so Scientific theorising may yet turn out to be looking 'in the wrong place for time solutions', as by the Mayan reference frame consciousness itself is speeding up, so maybe time is getting referentially/perceptively shorter?

    Aitch
    Amateur Astronomer
    Aitch, the energy content is the more fundamental concept to me than distance or time. Also the way the energy is partitioned is fundamental. Space and time are auxiliary functions that are created and expanded to contain the energy field. Space and time are defined by the energy fields they contain. To me velocity is more fundamental than distance or time. Without light speed we would have no concept of distance or the passage of time. In this way the velocity of space is a measure of the energy contained, or more precisely the ratio of electric energy potential to magnetic energy potential. Distance and time are partition functions of the energy field represented by velocity in space. Space and time are relative, but there are invariants. For example distance multiplied by time is invariant. The differential form is used to be always correct in every situation. (dr’)(dt’) = (dr)(dt) It is interesting that space probes measure their energy supplies in terms of meter -seconds, which is directly converted to the limited capacity to change momentum of the vehicle. There are a number of other invariants in special relativity. v’(dt’)^2 = v(dt)^2 General relativity also has invariants. (M’G’/r’c’^2) = (MG/rc^2) Momentum is the most fundamental property of objects in space. Every type of measurement like time or distance requires some form of momentum to be present. Momentum is related to energy by velocity. dE = v dp To get a force it is necessary to change the momentum and energy, and to partition the velocity. v = dr / dt F = dp/dt = dE/dr You might wonder why velocity is more fundamental than time or distance. It comes from published works about travel predictions near light speed. Then time like coordinate systems have three dimensions of time and one dimension of space. A vehicle accelerating from a lower speed must do a transformation of coordinates from space like to time like frames. The transformation can be avoided if the coordination system is redefined with six dimensions, three of time and three of space. Then there is the problem of how to measure three dimensions of time at a lower speed. That is where velocity becomes more important. Six dimensions can be measured if the coordinate frame is constructed from thee velocity elements, either vectors for flat space or tensors for curved space. Then a separate clock is associated with each velocity direction. The distance is calculated for each velocity direction, using the clock of that direction. In this way the reference frame of six dimensions can be measured by fairly conventional methods. Notice that proper distance is a derived quantity in higher dimensions, calculated from measured time, and the essential velocity frame in which the time is defined. A traveler computes velocity change directly from inertial measurements in a short time frame, and accumulates the results as a database of distance over a longer time. Relative distance can also be obtained by an impartial observer using light speed and a separate clock. Once again the distance is a derived secondary quantity. Remember that nearly everything in space is moving with respect to nearly everything else. Without the movement space could not be defined, and time could not be measured. Intellectually we speak of space and time independent of the actions they contain. That is a mathematical abstraction. Peter Lynds' theory I believe in this category, an abstract idea with no physical reality. When looking forward as you often do it may be helpful to think of distance as a consequence of actions. Thanks for asking.
    Aitch
    Thanks, Jerry

    Thought provoking, as usual :)

    I shall let it settle for a while....

    Aitch
    socrates
    I invented a time machine that really works. It has some limitations, but it really works. I am sitting in it right now. There are just two limitations.

    Limitation #1 is that it only operates in one direction. You can only use it to travel into the future.

    Limitation #2 is that it operates at only one speed. It takes you into the future at a fixed rate of 60 minutes every hour.

    Other than that, it works just fine. Sure it has limitations, but when you think about it, it is amazing that it works at all.

    P.S. It looks a lot like your standard office chair ;-)
    Citizen Philosopher / Science Tutor
    MarshallBarnes
    Another excellent example of why the nature of time is so hard for people to wrap their minds around.If Steve were to be taken at his word, his statement that "It takes you into the future at a fixed rate of 60 minutes every hour." could be interpreted as at the end of every hour his time machine sends you 60 minutes into the future, when in reality his machine doesn't even send you into the future at a rate of one nanosecond per nanosecond (the smallest rate that I feel like dealing with here) because if he's not sitting in his chair/time machine he'll still be experiencing the same rate of traveling through time that he describes he experiences when he's sitting in his chair/time machine. So his chair not only isn't a time machine at all, it's just a chair without any temporal mechanical influence of any kind.

    I guess if a joke is supposed to be really funny, it's got to make sense, but I've been accused before of not liking funny people. Then again, I plan on suing that person in a British court next year, so I guess I'll find that pretty funny then. In fact, I'm betting I'll have the last laugh...

    Aitch
    Marshall
    Having experienced time travel, I have to say that dragging some kind of machine around with me, would have been more of a nightmare than the actual experience itself
    Most people would be so shocked at the difference between what is there and what they expected to be there, they would shake themselves out of focus, and be back where they started from before they knew it....
    History is not what is written and the future is as varied as imaginable, and more
    Living now is the hardest of all, though, as all the other clutter gets in the way, and knocks you off focus....ha ha

    Aitch
    Aitch
    Steve, Ha Ha

    Yes, my office chair could do with an overhaul, too

    It keeps taking me to 'today'.....

    Aitch :)
    Wow you really wasted your time with this article. Only proving yourself the dunce, you've acted quite harshly and unnecessarily. All you do is rebut what didn't make sense to begin with, for quiteobvious reasons, but with such jejune mockery that it pains me to have had this show up on my RSS-feed.

    MarshallBarnes
    I always love these kinds of messages. Always from a judgmental, anonymous source attempting to show off how smart they are after the fact with not even a shred of evidence that they even have the slightest clue as to what the issue at hand was all about to begin with.
    So, Anonymous mystery guest, please explain for all of us less enlightened folk, "what didn't make sense to begin with, for quiteobvious (sic) reasons"? and do it without paraphrasing what has already been written in the article. If you are as smart as you pretend to be, that should be easy for you. I'm betting we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for your pearls of wisdom...
    Here, let me rephrase in a more anon tone.

    Lululul you srsly made graphs for this?

    Explain more? It's obvious the original article had obvious flaws; there's no need to go into such overkill for that. (Nice job picking out the lack of a space bar hit, shows true intelligence to do that)

    socrates
    Troll Alarm, Troll Alarm, AwUga, AwUga, Do not respond! Repeat, Do not respond! This is not a drill. :-)
    Citizen Philosopher / Science Tutor
    MarshallBarnes
    LOL! Just like I predicted - all talk and no grey matter. What obvious flaws, Einstein? I asked you for a list in your own words and you couldn't even muster a simple original comment. All you've got is the word "obvious" which in this case means it's obvious that you're a simple minded blow hard with low self esteem who likes to make it look like he's 100 IQ points smarter than he really is. 
    Now you listen to me and  you listen real good - I don't write articles for arrogant ignoramuses like you - I write them to further the discussion and understanding of complex space-time theories and the like, which is beyond your grade level, something you proved when you showed up shoveling that line of hackneyed, and over done bravo sierra that is as about as old as use.net. I knew you couldn't even begin to respond to my challenge because that would have required your understanding the physics in the article, which you proved you didn't comprehend simply by showing up here the way you did.

    So the next time you feel like making a critical comment, don't bother. We all know now what a phoney you are and as far as your opinion goes, quite frankly moron, I don't give a damn. You start writing analysis of temporal mechanics papers, and then maybe you'll show something, but until then you're just a poser looking to get pwned.