Banner
    Sean Carroll's Smackdown Of Michael Behe
    By Michael White | June 8th 2007 09:58 PM | 15 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Michael

    Welcome to Adaptive Complexity, where I write about genomics, systems biology, evolution, and the connection between science and literature,

    ...

    View Michael's Profile
    This week's issue of Science has a book review (subscription required unfortunately) of Michael's Behe's latest effort to defend Intelligent Design Creationism. Michael Behe's latest book, The Edge of Evolution, contains Behe's latest incarnation of his idea of irreducible complexity. A few years ago he put forward this latest argument in a paper in Protein Science (a journal which one of my mentors dismissed, maybe a little unfairly, as a "junk journal"), and he elaborates on this argument more extensively in his new book. (See a response to Behe's Protein Science paper here.) The argument is this: Any novel function in a protein that requires two simultaneous amino acid changes is so unlikely to occur by chance that the novel function must have been designed. Since most beneficial changes in protein function would require a change of two or more amino acids, most of the varied functional proteins we see in nature must have been designed and not evolved. So for example, if a receptor for a certain hormone were, over the course of evolution, to evolve a new specificity for a different hormone, and if that new specificity required at least two amino acid changes, then such change is incredibly unlikely to occur under just natural selection and random mutation. In making this argument, Behe makes this explicit assumption: an 'intermediate' protein with only one amino acid change (so in other words, it's only halfway evolved towards a new function that requires two certain amino acid changes) is non-functional, and thus is not subject to selection for the new function. So in order for natural selection to act, the protein would need both amino acid changes simultaneously, arising by chance mutation in the same individual organism (an event which Behe calculates to be unlikely). Sean Carroll takes on this argument by pointing out that Behe's assumption of non-functional intermediate proteins is contradicted by vast amounts experimental evidence. Single amino acid changes in a protein do in fact cause beneficial changes that are favored by natural selection, and over time these single changes accumulate in a lineage to create a more robust novel function. This is the norm in evolution, not the exception as Behe would have it. The scientific literature supporting this is extensive. Carroll goes on to make this important point: "Behe seems to lack any appreciation of the quantitative dimensions of molecular and trait evolution." This is because Behe, like me, is a biochemist - biochemists learn about the physics and chemistry of proteins. The kind of math we use to do our work consists primarily of differential equations that describe the kinetics and thermodynamics of proteins and nucleic acids. Biochemists generally do not study mutation rates, evolving populations, or the heavy statistics behind natural selection. That's a whole separate field, called quantitative genetics, founded primarily by the pioneering scientists Sewall Wright and Ronald Fisher, whose work is usually not that familiar to biochemists. (As someone who did a PhD in a biochemistry department, but now works in a genetics department, and in a lab that does serious quantitative genetics, I have acutely, even painfully, experienced this difference in training firsthand.) Behe's problem is that he's tried to jump into this field without any serious background knowledge; it's like a chemist or engineer trying to tackle research problems in quantum gravity - the chances of producing anything worthwhile are essentially zero. Behe's efforts at modeling mutation and selection on protein function have thus been amateurish, and not taken seriously by people who work on these problems professionally. On a different note, it's great to see Sean Carroll join the evolution/intelligent design fray. Many distinguished scientists write well and effectively against the weak claims of Intelligent Design, but few have the stature, as scientists, that Carroll has. He's a very big player in the field of evo-devo, a field which is directly relevant to the claims made by ID creationists. It's nice to see such a heavy-hitter get involved.

    Comments

    People who completely dismiss Intelligent Design/Creationism forget three key points. First, if everything came together randomly, there would probably not be nearly as amny stars and planets. Second, as far as I know, there are no 2-celled organisms. It's highly unlikely that a one celled organism spontaneously became a complex orgamism even after millions of years of evolving. The third, and strongest argument, is that the Big Bang theory, if it excludes a creator, violates a scientific law that states that matter cannot come from nothing. It cannot be created, only changed into different states.

    Arguments that discount evolution completely are equally flawed. Evolution is scientific fact. All you have to do is look at people to see it. Even 50 years ago, people were physically smaller than they are today. We are changing. That's not to say that everyone came from one common ancestor (see above point about one celled organisms), but species are changing as they move into new environments and/or the climate changes.

    Your arguments are sophomoric and completely without merit. You claim to speak of science, yet you retread someone else's misinformation.

    Randomness has no affect on your interpretation of complexity. Anisotropy in the cosmic background radiation shows that matter was not evenly distributed in the early universe, allowing it to form into complex structures called galaxies. See the results of NASA's COBE and W-MAP satellites.

    Single-cell organisms routinely divide to form new organisms. All living creatures derive from a single cell, regardless of their final form. Even you. Only evolution explains this.

    The Big Bang theory does NOT claim the universe was created from nothing. It states that all matter/energy was infinitely compressed into a non-dimensional point. From Relativity, we know that matter is simply another state of energy. No fundamental laws of physics are ever violated.

    God is never included or excluded from theories of Evolution or the Big Bang. God's existence is never refuted or supported by either of these theories. I/D actually hampers the case for God - it does not support Him. Would God create people stupid enough to refute sound scientific research? Hmm...

    Cash
    I am not sure Chad was refuting anything, he was saying they exist side-by-side, which is reasonable. I don't see many people claiming evolution is the 'spark' of life, just that it caused life to evolve, which is proven and Chad echoes. Of course, there are religious types who can't allow evolution just as there are Richard Dawkins-types who won't be happy until religion is eliminated, but that has little to do with science and more to do with their personal agendas.

    I like your notion that I/D hampers the case for a deity though. That merits an article all by itself. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know how to write it.

    adaptivecomplexity
    There are plenty of single-celled organisms out there that spend some of their life cycle in a multicellular lifeform, such as dictyostelids. Evolution of multicellularity has not been not an unusual thing.
    Mike
    It's amazing how you can sit here and talk about these highly complex things such as protiens and amino acids and in the same breath say it all came together by chance...

    adaptivecomplexity
    Evolution is not "chance" - the idea that scientists think it's all "chance" is one of the most ridiculous, yet unfortunately common misconceptions out there about biology. Scientists like me can talk evolution and highly complex biology because we actually go into the lab or the field and test these things. I make mutations in proteins and test their effects on fitness in the lab. Many of my colleagues study the rates of random mutations in the genome, study which DNA changes make closely related species different from each other, and make good estimates of how strong natural selection has to be to produce certain features in the genome. Our experimental studies, in the lab, in the field, using real proteins, real organisms, enables us to understand how chance mutations and decidedly non-random natural selection operate to produce new proteins, new biological functions, and new species.
    Mike
    What else do you call it if not 'chance'? I'm not understanding how it can be anything other than chance and the chance (pun intended) everything just worked out is ludicrous...

    Could you expound on how studies on 'rates of random mutations' is not chance?

    adaptivecomplexity
    Adaptive evolution is the effect of natural selection acting on essentially random mutations. Mutations arise in the genome by chance events, but natural selection itself is not 'chance'. Natural selection is the 'force' (it's not directly analagous to a physical force, but the term works well) that shapes adaptations of a species to its environment. So in terms of our protein example, a beneficial amino acid change in a protein can arise by a chance mutation in the DNA which codes for that protein. But whether that random change is preserved in a population depends not on chance, but on natural selection, which systematically preserves beneficial changes and weeds out deleterious ones.
    Mike
    So, it is 'chance' that a change occurs to begin with... Naturally a change that results in bright white lions or pink zebras would be weeded out by natural selection, but the change is purely chance.

    So, what are the odds of all the changes that would have had to occur down so many different lines (just dealing with biology) to give us the diversity we have today?

    BTW, could the web admin check the image posting checker thingy? I keep getting images that have 4 letters, then when I enter them, it says invalid, shows me a new (slightly wider) image that has 5 letters. I think the image thingy may be cutting off letters?

    Hank
    I'm not a huge fan of captchas either, but we use them to keep out spam. That said, in testing they always work fine. Gremlins exist. Of course, if you think you will stick around for a while you can just get an account and then you can vote on articles and help shape the content and community, organize the authors you like - you'll also never see that image captcha thing again, since it only applies to anonymous accounts.

    P.S. And we'll look into seeing if we can duplicate the problem you had just the same.

    adaptivecomplexity
    If you want to read a good discussion of ths kind of thing, there are plenty of good books out there that explain the numbers and probabilities behind evolution as is currently understood. Sean Carroll's latest book, The Making of the Fittest goes over a few basic calculations involving mutations rates, selection coefficients, and the populations sizes and time frames that are involved in the evolution of a new trait. As I mentioned in the original post, these sorts of calculations are the foundation of the field of quantitative genetics, which has covered these issues for over 80 years. A good textbook in quantitative genetics is Genetics and the Analysis of Quantitative Traits, by Michael Lynch and Bruce Walsh. This isn't the place for a primer on quantitative genetics. If you are seriously interested in the scientific answer to these questions, Carroll's book is a good place to start. I'm sure other places on the web have some good stuff on quantitative genetics. The short answer though is that when you look at the kinds of changes that are necessary in the DNA, and the time frame required, actual evolution in most cases happens more slowly than what is theoretically possible. There has been plenty of time for earth's current diversity to evolve, even factoring the major mass extinctions.
    Mike
    Georg von Hippel
    To all those who doubt that random mutation, when combined with selection (especially through sexual reproduction), can account for great complexity, I recommend taking a look at the field of evolutionary computing and genetic algorithms, where you can see evolution at work on your home PC solving complex optimisation problems. An article on an application of those ideas to my own field of work in subnuclear physics can be found here.
    Georg von Hippel
    Oh, and the posters saying that ID is bad theology are quite right -- if I had to manually intervene with my genetic fitting code all the time, I'd be a pretty lame programmer. Attributing that kind of incompetence or inability (to create a universe that works without constant overt divine intervention) to God almost amounts to a form of blasphemy.
    Creationist whack-a-mole

    I recently tried to get an answer from creationists about how they would account for the mole's sightless eyes. I could understand a divine designer perhaps making a creature to live underground in the dark and thus not giving it eyes at all, but why give it non-functional eyes (over which skin and fur is often found to grow)? Evolution can account for this; young-earth creationism and similar schools cannot, at least not easily.

    I will keep my comments to a minimum since my own field is Biblical studies. The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly sufficient to persuade me that evolution makes the best sense of it. But the only area I can speak authoritatively about is my own, and I will say one thing about it: when individuals claim that they are taking the Bible literally, they should be challenged. I have yet to meet someone who literally believes in the dome mentioned in Genesis 1, or that God needed a rest after six days of hard labor, or that we are literally made from dirt/dust. All "literalism" is selective literalism, and young-earth creationists need to be called on it. The rhetoric of "believing the whole Bible" and "taking it literally" is intended to give the impression that those with such views occupy a sort of Biblical high ground that is not in fact theirs. Better someone who is honestly selective than someone who does it but won't admit it.

    http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/blog/

    no matter how small the random chance is, it's going to pay off at some point.

    people do get hit by lightening or win the lottery.

    the chances of an intelligent designer existing - and begging the question of it's origin - surely are more remote than a spontaneous universe and life existing.

    further, the chances of that designer making anything as vast as the universe and then being remotely concerned with one solar system's one particular planet's one species's individual member's beliefs and gential behaviour of all the species that have existed on it.....

    Add a comment

    The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
    • Allowed HTML tags: <sup> <sub> <a> <em> <strong> <center> <cite><TH><ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <img> <br> <p> <blockquote> <strike> <object> <param> <embed> <del> <pre> <b> <i> <table> <tbody> <div> <tr> <td> <h1> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <iframe><u><font>
    • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
    CAPTCHA
    If you register, you will never be bothered to prove you are human again. And you get a real editor toolbar to use instead of this HTML thing that wards off spam bots.