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    Atheist David Albert destroying Dumb New Book by naïve Atheist Krauss
    By Sascha Vongehr | March 28th 2012 02:20 AM | 7 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Sascha

    Dr. Sascha Vongehr [风洒沙] studied phil/math/chem/phys in Germany, obtained a BSc in theoretical physics (electro-mag) & MSc (stringtheory)...

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    I do not usually shoot of little posts re-tweeting stuff I found, but the total destruction that is David Albert’s New York Times book review “On the Origin of Everything” reviewing “A Universe From Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather Than Nothing” by Lawrence M. Krauss is not only totally spot on correct and well written but moreover makes an important point toward the end, one that I often also try to hammer into science cheerleaders' brains, for example with Mix Science and God correctly or Don't: If you do not really know extremely well what the hell you are talking about, if you do not know the involved science very well AND simultaneously are also aware of the philosophical intricacies, DO NOT USE SCIENCE TO ARGUE AGAINST GOD! Why? Because YOU WILL FAIL and IT WILL BACKFIRE helping only one side: The religious nuts.


    OK, David does not exactly say it like this, but one should stress the important point that he does also point out that proper and effective criticism of religion is entirely different and at most suffers from adding silly science.


    Krauss has written a book whose main impact, apart from making him money and feeding confirmation bias in the target audience, is that religious people have yet more evidence proving that scientists and science writers simply do not understand the issues properly and have reduced themselves to selling mediocre books to a semi-intellectual new “third culture” mob of know it all loudmouths ridiculing all other religions but their own: naïve scientism.


    But all there is to say about this, as far as I can see, is that Krauss is dead wrong and his religious and philosophical critics are absolutely right.


    Thank you David Albert for having the courage to be outspoken in a discussion that is way too often tolerant of nonsense because of ill understood “professionalism”. [This is for example why the “Institute for Ethics of Emergent Technologies” (see my IEET profile here) refuses to publish anymore stuff from me: my take down of an academic pseudo-scientist was O-tone “unprofessional”! It is unprofessional for scientists to unrelentingly argue against pseudo-science; go figure. David seems to not care; of course, he also does no longer need to in his position.]


    There are many now that try to jump onto the “Look I know why there is something instead of nothing” bandwagon, partially because it is funded well recently, thus developing into a burgeoning field; an also pretty bad attempt was just now delivered by Ethan from “Starts with a Bang”. The more I read of these, the more disappointed I become and the more confident I also become in simply promoting my own insight into the question (and yes, it is about the question first of all, not the answer), especially because the way I do it is the only one I have seen out there that is atheist in a mature and scientific way: No, I do not hype the newest bit of stringtheory in order to hide god down one more level and then rant about why criticism of such should be ignored because it comes from republicans who deny global warming and do not like condoms. In a scientific approach, pseudo-questions and magic ghosts simply do not arise during the use of sharpened terminology.

    Anyway, go over there to the NYT and have a read. David Albert uses some nice images like that of the arrangement of fingers that make a fist and how fists do not pop out from nothing. It is well written in a way that speaks to a wide audience without trivializing the issue too much.

    Comments

    Arguments such as the one Krauss and other luminaries, such as Hawking, for instance, propose are indeed unfortunate, hinging on the conception of a nothing that is, as I heard it described somewhere, a 'pretty something-y kind of nothing'. As an (imperfect) analogy, I often use the image of listening to John Cage's 4'33'' versus listening to nothing: one could easily confuse the two, because both consist of silence -- but they're not the same. 4'33'' depends on the existence of the concepts of music, of performance, etc. while silence can 'be' even if nobody ever thought about music at all. In a similar way, Krauss et al's arguments depend on some framework of physical laws in which their concept of 'nothing' -- the vacuum, absence of space-time, whatever -- is realized, which of course just pushes back the question one more iteration: why are there (those particular) laws of physics instead of none (or different ones)?

    As far as I can see, there's two possible ways out of this dilemma. One would be to argue that some physical law is mandatory, and that this law then realizes the (naive) ex-nihilo creation propagated by Krauss and co. One possible candidate for such a thing might be the second law of thermodynamics: anything at all that can be in distinct states obeys it automatically, since it effectively just states that the most likely of these states are attained most often, which many surely view as tautologous. But there, we face some Münchhausen problem: the second law needs something on which to act, or for which to hold; but something, in order to exist, as per the above, would need the second law (or some other law) to hold.

    Maybe then one can look to quantum mechanics: view it, not so much as a law of physics, but instead simply as a calculus of non-commutative probability, or, as per Zeilinger's principle, as a probability calculus appropriate for systems of fundamentally limited information, hold it thus to be mandatory, and then mumble something about quantum fluctuations etc.

    Another way to look at this might be to observe that, at least, law can come from non-law: a given string of random digits is completely lawless, but still, its gross properties (relative frequency of digits, amount of deviation from this to be expected, etc.) are at least probabilistically predictable, so anything operating on the level of these gross properties would tend to follow fixed laws as the length of the string grows to infinity. One can then point to the similarity to quantum mechanics: the laws of mechanics (for instance) are not something put into the theory from the beginning, rather, they emerge in a similar way, through interference of all possible paths, each of which (or almost all of which) do not themselves follow these laws. F = ma (or more generally the principle of stationary action, etc.) then becomes a law similar to 'there are as many 0s as there are 1s in a random bit string'.

    This already comes close to the second option, which I think is also the one you favor (though correct me if I misread you): observe that 'nothing' and 'everything' aren't really all that different; both, for instance, contain zero information (as measured, for instance, algorithmically: a program producing no output and a program producing, say, every possible bit-string are both of asymptotically zero complexity). Laws then get the character of constrains, selecting out the specific something we observe from all the other possible somethings: this just says that the constructive definition of (a set of) something(s) is of the same complexity and information content -- is a dual description of -- its complement within some totality -- i.e. getting something from nothing is the same as starting with everything and pruning it down to some specific something.

    Well, or something like that; I've probably rambled on more than enough...

    re "law of physics"

    i think the word "law" in science is a poor choice. It implies that the law and the stuff subject to the law are different kinds of things but associated somehow. I think "behaviour" would be better. (Who originally decided to use the word "law" anyway?)

    Eg. the "behaviour of gravity" rather than the "law of gravity". Not "Newton's Laws of Motion" but "Newton's Behaviours of Motion".

    "Behaviour" implies this is an observed property of stuff in a context (well, i think so) - behaviour isn't seperate from the stuff and not separate from the context in which the stuff is behaving. "Law" implies an abstract existing rule that stuff is complying with. "Behaviour" would take away that sense of perfection and absolute truth, and allow a sense that this is a product of observation and there may be more.

    So, there are no "laws" of physics, there are only the "behaviours of physics".

    [/rant]

    i think even some atheistic scientists are accidental deists.

    For instance .. any belief in an objective or absolute existence or point of view is essentially deist (assuming absolute or objective reality is taken literally rather than as a convenient platform for some scientific model). It implies the actual existence of a disembodied all seeing eye (regardless of any associated "intelligence"). I suppose this is an inevitable consequence of the experience of ideas existing under the gaze of the mind's eye. So, the idea of objective reality is really a belief in a universal mind's eye = the all seeing eye = god of some sort or other.

    I'm not sure to what degree the above is rational v. rationalising-what-i've-choosen-to-believe. I think it sorta kinda makes sense, though. Just belief with no scientific basis, i guess, because, it's not possible to prove by experiment objective existence or non-existence (is it?) (because we're always ultimately involved in the experiment one way or another).

    Krauss didn't do a very good job of explaining the "Why". There is something rather than nothing because the state of "nothing" is UNSTABLE. Quantum Physics tells us that the state of “nothing” does not stay “nothing” for long. A true nothing means no energy, no space and no time. Nothing is like a sphere of zero radius with nothing around it. Once a quantum event occurs inside this sphere (and it will according to physics) the radius of this sphere expands slightly causing the pressure ratio of the inside pressure to the outside pressure (zero) to be infinite or near infinite. Remember that a number divided by zero is INFINITY. This infinite pressure ratio causes a rapid expansion resulting in the Big Bang explosion. If we put a partially filled balloon in a vacuum chamber, it expands rapidly and bursts since the internal pressure is greater than the external pressure. Inserting this same balloon into a state of true “nothing” is even more explosive. Google and download "The Origin of the Universe - Case Closed" for a simple explanation that anyone can understand - lots of pictures and simple language. The key to understanding creation is knowing that gravity is actually negative energy allowing a creation from nothing where the total energy of the universe is zero. Since the state of “nothing” is unstable, the stuff around us is the result of nature seeking stability. It’s amazing that modern physics says it’s possible for the universe to exist without a creator.

    vongehr
    No, Krauss did a perfect job at explaining that he does not understand, and I am afraid so do you.
    Once a quantum event occurs inside this sphere
    There is not anything! No sphere!
    The multiverse theory is only the last of a series of arguments that a militant atheist movement has embraced throughout history in the hope that it will finally be the ultimate formula that will expunge metaphysical thought from science. And since the previous attempts like logical positivism, Darwinism, and more recently the approach of neurobiology to consciousness and the mind-body problem, did not lead to the results they hoped for, they are now clutching at straws like the multiverse conjecture. But while arguing with logical positivism, Darwinism and neurobiology was based on solid scientific facts, the multiverse theory is, at least so far, mere speculation. And people as Krauss, Dawkins & co. are now making themselves ridiculous. This does not look like a shout of victory but much more as an arguing out of desperation.

    vongehr
    You have no idea what you are ranting about. Krauss does not argue with multiverses.