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    Why Einstein Could Not Solve The EPR Paradox Though He Could Have
    By Sascha Vongehr | August 11th 2011 12:27 AM | 22 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Sascha

    Dr. Sascha Vongehr [风洒沙] studied phil/math/chem/phys in Germany, obtained a BSc in theoretical physics (electro-mag) & MSc (stringtheory)...

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    Usually, the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox is presented as if it potentially conflicts with the theory of relativity. This is because the correlation between Alice’s and Bob’s measurements seems to travel with superluminal speeds in the one real world. The solution [1] of the EPR paradox shows that this view is completely upside-down, which is part of the reason it took so long to solve it satisfactorily.


    Scientists and philosophers where trying to understand the quantum mechanics involved without bothering with relativity, because the problematic seems to conflict with relativity. However, in this way, the actual solution to the problem, namely many worlds (better: modal realism), looks extremely suspect:


    A non-relativistic universe would need to quantum split everywhere into many different ones all the time (every moment, infinite universes infinitely often). Why the hell should it do so? What makes it split? How could this ever be later turned into a relativistic, let alone general relativistic model where the splits would have to have a certain shape through curved space-time? For all these and more reasons, the many worlds concept is often ridiculed.



    What has been missed consistently by the community interested in the philosophy of physics, partially due to its obsession with so called "hyperspace foliations" (~ slices of the real world out there), is that special relativity already deconstructs the world into a collection of different observers’ past light cones (~histories, memory contents, minds) in a sort of ‘temporal modal realism’.


    Everett relativity (~ many worlds) in the EPR setup does not conflict with special relativity; on the contrary, it is suspect without special relativity and totally natural with it. Branching only needs to occur at the observation events. The funny thing is: This really is already obvious from special relativity basically since 1915. If you understand special relativity, there are only two options:


    1)You either believe in one determined “block universe” where everything is predetermined, which is of course utterly ridiculous lest you think that the very fundament of nature and the whole universe (call it "god" if you must) is there to let you on some lazy Tuesday afternoon throw a coin and get heads instead of tails,

    2) or you know that totality must in some way ultimately be describable by all the possible past light cones, i.e. once you are on a truly fundamental level, the you that throws tails is exactly as real as the one that gets heads, and the difference between those two propagates at most with the speed of light through the model that describes spatial relations (the universe).


    If Einstein would have been less of a direct realist, he could have been twice the genius he was already and come up with the multiverse long before Everett. I know, this is misleading; Einstein’s, Feynman’s, and many other physicist's successes are due to them being originally direct realists*, because that makes you focus on “real stuff” like elevators falling in gravity fields.


    Nevertheless, my point is that taking special relativity seriously renders the many world concept natural. For example the question about where the splits of the world branchings are supposed to be located becomes trivial: Along the light cones of course. If you know special relativity, you then also know that the “split” is thereby of zero eigen-length and happens in a sense (I said: in a sense!) instantaneously.


    Quantum decoherence “dislocates” [2] via interactions and therefore at the speed of light. The model that resolves the EPR paradox works therefore without superluminal velocities. The last step that turns the model quantum physical is a local branching that destroys the very grounds on which a direction called DirectlyReal makes sense. Einstein locality stays; realism is modified.


    Similar conclusions have been drawn before. The Heisenberg representation of the many world interpretation is local [3], but there are no models. The simplicity of the new model and the fact that a single, local modification turns it into quantum physics while destroying its direct realism shows that not every many worlds model is a quantum world and quantum physics is not synonymous with multiverses or modal realism. Without DirectlyReal, the employed Wiener sausage model is already a many world modal realism all along, right from the beginning when it is still classical.

    This further corroborates that the many world aspect of the universe, which is philosophically of course self-evident, should be understood as a relativistic rather than quantum physical phenomenon!

    I have now said everything I wanted to say about this issue, but since people read mostly between the lines and see whatever they suspected rather than what is actually written, let me add this: The main gist is that relativity indicates modal realism and that quantum = necessarily modal! The main point is not that the world is local. The model is local! I do not care about locality much, because only if space is viewed as being directly real ‘out there’ does it even make sense to defend its locality. Once the world is not directly out there anyway (more in our heads, in a sense, with much poetic license), it does not matter anymore whether its consistent description involves locality or non-locality, or whether the world is best consistently described as made out of green cheese! So – do not tell me that maybe the universe is best described as holographic quantum gravity and thus non-local. That may well be true, but it would not change my findings in the slightest. On the contrary, insistence on modal realism, perhaps even as just one of many more modifications of realism still to come, makes all those commonly perceived as 'weird' suggestions like holography much more acceptable.


    ---------------------------------------

    * This is an important aspect that naturally also hinders physicists from progressing, as I pointed out and discussed somewhat some time ago when answering a comment. Without direct realism, you are a lousy physicist right from the start, but if you cannot shake off direct realism along the way, you are going to be a lousy physicist in the end.


    [1] S. Vongehr: "Many Worlds Model resolving the Einstein Podolsky Rosen paradox via a Direct Realism to Modal Realism Transition that preserves Einstein Locality." arXiv:1108.1674v1 [quant-ph] (2011).


    [2] H. Dieter Zeh: “Quantum discreteness is an illusion.” arxiv:0809.2904


    [3] David Deutsch, Patrick Hayden: “Information Flow in Entangled Quantum Systems.” Proc. R. Soc. London A456, 1759-1774 (1999)

    Comments

    Steve Davis
    "Without direct realism, you are a lousy physicist right from the start, but if you cannot shake off direct realism along the way, you are going to be a lousy physicist in the end."
    Zen physics?!
    I like it!
    Sascha

    so you have solved the EPR paradox - what a bold statement!

    As a simple experimentalist I am certainly not in a positioin to thoroughly judge your claim.
    But as an old sceptic I would certainly propose to go through the traditional peer review process first and await the acceptance of a broader scientific audience. There's no neet to hurry anyway - at the length truth will out.

    vongehr
    It seems you may confuse what solving a paradox a certain way means. Para (against) doxa (what is commonly thought) does not imply contradiction. I am not sure what "truth" you want to come out. The model shows that realism has to go modal in order for many worlds models to be quantum, and that at least as far as EPR is concerned, micro causality can be conserved as long as realism is modified - both claims are totally in line with established science!

    Whether the scientific community will recognize this any time soon as important is another question, but the solution of a paradox isn't anything we need peer review for! Maybe you are more familiar with the relativistic twin paradox: Finding an especially didactic way to explain it (without any further insight, say) is not of interest to science. Such paradoxes do not even arise when just doing the science properly.
    As a simple experimentalist I am certainly not in a positioin to thoroughly judge your claim.
    I took large pains to explain everything with a long series of posts on the advanced highschool level starting from explaining how John Bell disproved local realistic models. If you study my posts, you should be able to understand it fully enough to be confident. It may be hard at times, but since the EPR problematic impacts the most important issues in the intersection of science and philosophy, it is well worth it. I will next week put out a study guide that relates every section in the pre-print article to the relevant post.
     
    > [...] the solution of a paradox isn't anything we need peer review for! [...]
    > Finding an especially didactic way to explain [the relativistic twin paradox] (without
    > any further insight, say) is not of interest to science.

    You contradict yourself: your discourse and its conclusions may indeed follow smoothly from existing theory, but you're certainly not claiming that it imbues no "further insight," are you? So your example is inappropriate.

    More to the point: re-framing of our fundamental understanding of truth using known laws is pretty much the definition of all of mathematics, by the way -- are you suggesting that new mathematical results (which, after all, /all/ follow from existing and accepted theories) don't require peer review?

    The problem, here, is that absent a peer-reviewed formal presentation, there's no way to establish whether your conclusions result from arguments which contain errors. You can yell all you like about how philosophical differences and intransigent, conservative clinging to old interpretations are the only actual underpinnings of the discord between those who accept your theory and those who don't, but until somebody formally checks your arguments, your *implicit assertion that those arguments are error-free* is an unwarranted article of faith that you're inappropriately asking the community to accept.

    vongehr
    ut you're certainly not claiming that it imbues no "further insight," are you?
    You said that I am bold because of the EPR thingy, not because of the further insights.
    absent a peer-reviewed formal presentation, there's no way to establish whether your conclusions result from arguments which contain errors.
    You seem to have little confidence in your own abilities and additionally little experience with the role of peer review (it often does not check for validity at all). Let me encourage you again: If you have some basic undergrad physics and math, you will be able, if you go through the linked archive article with help of all the posts that I have written aimed at the lay audience (starting with the simplest proof against local realism), to understand the issue. It is not difficult and a much better feeling to understand something confidently yourself. What I provided is kind of like the Minkowski picture to relativity: Before, it was difficult, after, nothing too much in terms of science was actually added, but it became easy, that is the whole point of understanding. Why don't you stop arguing and just give it a try? And tell me where you get stuck, so I can improve the didactic. I will next week post a study guide, as I announced already.
    Brian Greene's new book says that the many worlds interpretation does not work. There is a long history of other physicists rejecting it as well. Can you explain where they go wrong?

    vongehr
    Many worlds interpretation (MWI) with branch counting has several potentially fatal problems, one being the normalization of infinities (so called cosmological measure problem). The final aim consistent with what is philosophically indicated is a many minds description and a rejection of objective (rather than subjective) weights (like world counts). The multiverse structure being real (modal realism) is still realist. I am sticking here temporarily with MWI because it is sufficient for the purpose (here conserving locality while having modal realism be responsible for the quantum nature) and because people are just not ready for many minds (many worlds seems to be already too weird for most, though I do not understand why).

    Think of my use of MWI as many minds diet version. On a blog with a largely lay audience, counting stuff is OK, but probabilities as rational expectations ... no way one could reach anybody.
    Roger, you said "Brian Greene's new book says that the many worlds interpretation does not work." I assume you are referring to 'The Hidden Reality.' I was wondering where in the book you see Greene as rejecting MWI. I read it as well and recall him seeming supportive of the interpretation.

    Thanks
    elo

    fundamentally

    When something cannot be observed by any item in our universe, then it is safe to state that this something does not exist. No one can prove the contrary. It is also impossible to prove the statement, but that does hardly matter. The existence of multiverses and many world models falls in this category. It is undeniable that these models exist, but the actual fact of existence of multiverses or many worlds cannot be observed. So it is safe to state that they do not exist.
    It is not logical to use a thing that does not exist as a means to resolve a paradox.

    If you think, think twice
    vongehr
    Interference effects and measurement of counterfactuals (e.g. the bomb testing procedure) do indicate "parallel worlds" via objective measurement. Apart from that, being hung up about words like "exist" is a language/terminology issue and not one that physics is interested in. If you prefer to use "exist" in such ways that non-actualized potentialities do not "exist", go ahead - totality does not exist anyway. It doesn't change anything substantial.
    fundamentally

    Sascha
    Can you provide more precise references to counterfactuals and  bomb testing in relation to observation of parallel worlds?

    Hans

    If you think, think twice
    vongehr
    There are some arguments and references in the pre-print.
    Once again from Greene's Hidden Reality: He makes some good points about the limits of how far we should take that point (ie., "When something cannot be observed by any item in our universe, then it is safe to state that this something does not exist."). For example, would you say that as soon as something moves beyond our Hubble Volume, it ceases to exist?... Also, Occam's Razor, imho, may point toward forces or objects that are impossible to "see" directly, and I see that as another primary principle of scientific reasoning.

    The speed of thought HAS to be faster that the speed of light, because you can dream for 10mins - but the events in that dream actually can take a great deal longer
    Now you may say that that is a mental illusion BUT that only proves my point , beacuse you still have to THINK through any events in your drean.
    So are thoughts a form of electrical energy or are we missing the point entirely because we are visually obsessed and base our physics on the visual. Would an organic life form which could only hear not see but was highly intelligent ever consider that anything could move faster than the speed of sound and would it's technology and understanding be limited by this. Just thinking......

    Hank
    The speed of thought HAS to be faster that the speed of light, because you can dream for 10mins - but the events in that dream actually can take a great deal longer
    Oh my.  You are not kidding, are you?  The 'speed of thought' has been measured.  It is the speed of electricity in a medium, after all, and it's around 240 MPH.  Obviously brain connections are covering a small amount of distance so it feels fast but it is not, and it is measurable.   Some people are faster thinkers, obviously, and react faster, but no one is 2.8 million times faster than an average human, which they would have to be to exceed the speed of light.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    I don't think you got my point and you are referencing reaction time not speed of thought. My point is you dream for 10mins but the events in the dream take significantly longer - how could this be condensed into 10mins ? parrallel processing perhaps not sure - but how do you re-constitute the events into a continuos time-line?

    colinkeenan
    Maybe when I stop being so lazy and actually take the time to become confident with Sasha's model, I'll have some relevant comments to this excellent series.

    No one should answer your question here though since it really has nothing to do with Sasha's model, but I can't resist having thought about this around 20 years ago resolving the issue to my satisfaction although I've never studied anything about dreaming.

    What concerned me back then more than the seemingly hour long dreams taking place in 10 minutes were the 10 minute dreams seemingly taking place instantly or with precognition. I don't remember the specific dreams now because I don't pay attention to this type of dream anymore, but they were elaborate dreams that from the beginning seemed to lead up to something loud happening, and that loud noise would wake me up and I would see that something really did happen to make that loud noise. How could I have known at the beginning of the dream that there would be a loud noise in real life?

    I don't believe in precognition, so decided it could only happen that the entire dream took place after the noise, but that being asleep, I did not consciously perceive the noise until the completion of the dream. In fact, I believe those dreams were caused by my sleeping brain trying to process the signals being sent from my ears. The signals had to go through unusual paths since I wasn't awake which triggered a full story as to what caused the sound, and by the end of the dream, I was awake enough to here the sound which seemed to me to have happened exactly as I woke. In fact, although my actual hearing of the sound was delayed from the real sound by the dream, I don't think it was more than a few seconds of delay.

    And, that of course leads to your question. How could a few seconds of delay in hearing the sound give enough time for an elaborate dream that seemed to me to take 10 minutes?

    I think the answer is simple. It is the same way movies (and more importantly, memories) can cover long spans of time in such a short time. Movies and our memories only pay attention to what's important, easily condensing long hours into minutes or days into an hour. Haven't you ever noticed what happens when you become hyper aware of everything that's happening? This most often happens to me when I'm driving somewhere I've never been before and am not confident of the directions, and also very worried about arriving on time. The drive to that location seems to take an hour even though it was only 15 minutes, and then to my amazement, the relaxed drive back is over before I know what happened.

    I'm sure TV and movies have drastically improved our ability to condense long story lines into short dreams. I can remember my Grandfather telling me all his dreams were in black and white. Obviously, that was related to all the black and white TV he had watched.
    vongehr
    All we know is that we remember a dream. Work from B. Libet for example (cutaneous rabbit etc.) shows that the sequence of a story that our brain makes constantly up is no more than a labeling, not even time stamping, which would occur in time, but merely the binding of somehow felt consistent time labels (more about that and references in the suicide article). That the brain makes up a consistent story for the loud noise is just what brain does all day. In the suddenly disturbed sleep/dreamy mode, the bunch of associations triggered by the noise gets automatically time labels and story (causal explanation) treatment, but since this happens in the state you are in at that point, a very weird bunch of associations of course results, and the only consistent story immediately after that point is that this weird stuff must have been a dream that may well get some sort of further reshuffling of time labels. There wasn't even any dream, yet still we remember dreaming it. Is much the same when we break at a sudden red light and remember seeing the light turn red and then us willingly breaking, while when we run the light, we also will often not remember seeing the red light, I promise officer. Both times we did not consciously see it before we break, but in the first case, the brain labels the events so that it appears as if. All our life our brain is not only hallucinating, but making up a story long after the facts.
    My 64Million$$ question is the following. Does this Finally put to rest the question whether or not Decoherence solves the collapse of the wavefunction paradox ? 10 yrs ago, Stephen Adler argued, in opposition to the community, that decoherence does Not. At first sight I like Sasha's idea, just wondering if it will resolve this paradox to the satisfaction of everyone, or Only w/in the context of ManyWorlds ?

    vongehr
    I think that decoherence is by now so experimentally and theoretically established that even if quantum mechanics should get non-linear corrections (due to say gravity or consciousness in some sense), those corrections would come at another scale and not replace decoherence but at most add to it.
    Now where do we get those 64 million in case we put it to rest I wonder.
    Given your references to Deutsch and Hayden's paper, I was wondering if you had seen Deutsch's new paper in this regard:

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.6223

    And, what your initial thoughts might be. Thanks.

    vongehr
    Now I have, thanks. Initial thoughts? Perhaps I am missing something profound, but this forth and back paper writing about whether something is non-local (Wallace) or rather global (Deutsch) based on operator sophistry in standard QM puts me asleep. Likely the Oxford crowd is correct in defending linear QM and it will survive unification with gravity, but if not, their arguments will all need to be looked at again, or in other words, it isn't clear whether their assumptions are correct as long as we do not know the nature of gravity. I try to stay with arguments that hold up regardless.