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    CERNs errors are consistent but they are still wrong; Superluminal Neutrinos and systematic errors.
    By Hontas Farmer | November 18th 2011 09:42 AM | 17 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Hontas

    Currently I am a Masters Candidate at DePaul University in Chicago IL.  My thesis topic relates to MASERS and Star formation   Born and...

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    Here I will give you a rundown of papers that have made it to pre-print which point out these errors.  Much will be written about CERN’s latest numbers, allot of it will not spend much time on “systematic errors”, here are a few examples.   CERN's setup having systematic errors is not what makes them wrong, that they did not recognize these things does.

    One of the things every scientist learns is that the most pernicious, most hard to eliminate errors are systematic errors.  These are errors that exist because of the very setup of one’s experiment.  They can be hard to recognize, and hard to reconcile. Unless what you are measuring is a well-known property which has been measured a bazillion times before.  In those cases a finding of  g= 20 m/s^2 (on earth at sea level), or that Alpha centauri is only 0.4 light years away, or that neutrino’s fly faster than light needs to be adjusted after the fact to fit what literally millions of other scientist have found.   The logic being that any errors in all of those experiments will have canceled each other out.

    Competent and even great scientist are wrong every day, the great ones figure it out before the press conference.  CERN's team is certainly competent.

    This is not just the musing of one random person.  Here is a list of papers , not exhaustive, which points out the systematic errors in CERN’s Neutrino result.

    These papers point out that CERN's results rest on certain assumptions about the neutrino beam’s departure time and characteristics at departure.  If their assumptions are in error then their results are wrong. This is not an exhaustive list by any means.

    “Possible systematic error in OPERA neutrino experiment.”  Edwin Norbeck and F. Duane Ingram, University of Iowa

    http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1389521/files/CERN-OPEN-2011-042.pdf

    “Possible Origin Of The Neutrino Speed Anomaly Reported By OPERA” Shlomo DadoArnon Dar

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.6408

    The following papers point out that CERN has likely made a timing error in a way that even their latest rerun of the experiment does not eliminate  , a systematic timing error. 

    “Inconsistence of super-luminal Opera neutrino speed with SN1987A neutrinos burst and withflavor neutrino mixing” D. FargionD. D'Armiento

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.5368

    The above paper is most damming. This deals with a scenario where light and neutrinos were released from an event at the same time by a supernova. The timing of the arrival of the neutrinos and the light was consistent with c being the limiting speed (in essentially flat space-time which is close enough to Special Relativity’s unaccelerated reference frames for a valid comparison.)  This observation involves actual light, and actual neutrinos traveling through the same backgrounds and measuring their arrival times.  If CERN was correct, then the neutrino’s would have arrived YEARS earlier!   No such spike in neutrinos has been found in the archived data from that period.  Any theory which seeks to explain CERN’s result needs to reckon with the astronomical data on SN1987A .

     

    These are just the papers I was able to find from a quick Googleing which deal with systematic errors CERN’s setup.  There are other objections both theoretical and experimental.  The most fundamental of which are listed here

    I should also mention this one.  It sort of straddles the border between experimental systematics and theoretical concerns.   "Time-of-flight between a Source and a Detector observed from a Satellite" Ronald A.J. van Elburg  http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685

    "Common-View Mode Synchronization as a source of error in Measurement of Time of Flight of neutrinos at the CERN-LNGS experiment" Satish Ramakrishna (_http://arxiv.org/abs/1111.1922) gives a more detailed account of  the kind of error CERN seems to have made which shorter pulses of neutrinos would not correct for.

    In reading CERN’s papers I am reminded of these words from the great Richard P Feynman “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”  The scientist at CERN are all very distinguished and good at what they do, and should step back and consider that to confirm their result they may need a fundamentally different setup than what they have now.    

    A space based experiment that would truly settle this once and for all. 

    An experiment which mimics the supernova in that it releases both neutrino’s and photons at the same time, so we can see light and neutrino’s travel the same track, and see which one wins the race.  The only way I can see doing such a thing, would be with a neutrino experiment based in space, and the detectors here on Earth.  With the neutrino and the photon leaving at known times, and traveling through the same conditions all the unknowns inherent in a setup like CERN's would be eliminated.

    A satellite with a neutrino source could be placed in geosychronous orbit over a selected point on Earth's equator.  The distance   to geosynchronous orbit is well known, and much larger than the 700 odd Km that CERN has to play with.  Any difference in the time of flight of the neutrino and photon packets would be magnified by this distance.  The result would be clear and convincing to all.  

    While the technical details of such an undertaking would be a challenge it can be done.   

    Corrected for minor punctuation errors.  Any comment that in future is not about physics will be deleted. 

    Update: 2/25/2012
    It seems I was right about them being wrong... the whole thing was caused by a loose wire. 

    New Theory on that Faster-Than-Light Particle: A Loose Wire

    Comments

    Learn to spell "a lot" and I might consider reading your stupidity.

    Hfarmer
    What you suggested does not even exist as a word.  
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    You need to use two words, "a lot", meaning a large amount or proportion.
    "Allot" is a word but doesn't make sense in that context. It is a transitive verb meaning to distribute, or to allocate.

    vongehr
    So late to the party and yet so badly written. People put stuff on the archive, big deal, and they suggest that there may be certain systematic errors worth looking into, which we all know could well be. And there are all these "refutations" that however throughout assume a constant velocity of the particles while the data indicate that superluminal velocities may well have been only at the very beginning of the journey, which renders the supernova data completely irrelevant! You have been made aware of this fact! Nevertheless you write "The above paper is most damming ...  If CERN was correct, then the neutrino’s would have arrived YEARS earlier!", at the same time being well aware of the fact that this is at least leaving out some very important caveats (if not actually being nonsense).
    And on this basis you write "they are still wrong" as if you know anything more than experienced physicists do.
    While I see many bloggers improving over time, you are getting worse and worse. And yes, computers have spell checkers.
    Hfarmer
    Everything you just wrote is utterly speculative, and said in an arrogant and asinine way.   Prove any of it.

    If anything the OPERA result would just mean neutrinos have an imaginary mass.  Every undergraduate US physicist learns this would be the consequence of faster than light propagation sophomore year.

    I use US spelling and grammar.   We won the war and so no longer need to spell color with a u. 
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    Hfarmer
    Hontas, The SN1987 neutrinos are not necessarily in disagreement with the OPERA results. See: http://www.quantumgeometrydynamics.com/blog/?p=81 As for arrogance. It is the trait of the mediocre and an infinitely worse flaw than typos and spelling errors. Daniel L. Burnstein www.quantumgeometrydynamics.com
    Edited to make the above visible. 
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    Hfarmer
    Daniel   I had to edit your comment in order to make it visible.  I wanted to reply to your point and address Sacha's similar points.
    Both of you propose new physics to explain these things.  Here is the problem with that.  We have so much old and well tested physics that works 99.999% of the time.  This phenomenon does not warrant or require throwing out so much of that physics.  Even if OPERA is right there are much more minimal modifications to the standard models of particle physics (and cosmology) that can explain what has happened.   The new physics that you and others suggest would need hundreds of man years of testing before it could be compared to the weight of evidence in favor of Special and General Relativity.  

    I am fully prepared to be WRONG about this.  In fact if I am shown to be wrong I will write a headline trumpeting it to the world, and post up of video of me eating the first page of Glashow's paper with butter and salt!   :)

     
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    Actually, the theories work 99.999% of the time within a very constrained scales. All of them fail completely when attempting to described physical systems at other scales. A truly fundamental theory of physical reality should be applicable to all scales.
    Also, I'm not proposing that we should dismiss our acquired data. What I do however suggests is to be open to different interpretation of the data. However, the real test of a theory is in the experimental confirmation of its original predictions. As far as I know, none of the dominant theories have predicted the OPERA results, but they are struggling to patch up their models to either explain away the results as errors or incorporate them if they are confirmed.
    One way or another, it's all too easy to explain a posteriori, If the OPERA results are confirmed (and I'm convinced that hey will), then the models we hold to were correct should have seen this coming.

    Daniel L. Burnstein
    www.quantumgeometrydynamics.com

    Hank
    You click the publish button to make it visible if it is held in moderation.  Editing it and making it under your username means he will never know you replied.
    Hfarmer
    Thanks Hank.  I have been wondering what to do with those Salmon colored links. :)
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    我认为这里可能存在一种未知的"纳米"黑洞[【姑且称之为】

    Hfarmer
    Google translate tells me you said "_I think there may be an unknown here, the "nano" black hole [[let's call it]"

    Consider this, some very smart people think that certain elementary particles may in fact just be tiny, TINY black holes. 

    All of these sorts of ideas are just speculations.  When it comes to something as fundamental as this, let us all stick to empirical data, and the minimal modifications to what we know works.  
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    I am just provide an aspect ,if we only think about the points that we take for right ,we may miss the truth, speculations like this probably can give us a new optic angle to think of this questions

    Hfarmer
    Ah, that's very true.  That's kind of why I would want to see a much simpler experiment like I described in another posting.   
    What has been done so far uses a ton of electronics, and all kinds of implicit assumptions to reach it's result.  If we could somehow produce a photon, and a neutrino at the same time and place, and see which one gets to us first, we would have the answer.  That would be simplicity itself.  I think too many in the west love to use all the high tech they can, when their are easier ways.  Not just in science but in life. 
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    There is a quite simple connection between SN 1987A and OPERA data which show them to fit well: http://arxiv.org/abs/1112.0353

    Hfarmer
    I read your paper quickly and the problem I see right away is that you have assumed a kind of interaction between neutrinos and matter that has never been observed.  
    The claim opera made involved comparing the speed of neutrinos vs the speed of light in vacuum.  For that reason a test of both in vacuum over a long LONG baseline is needed. 
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    Einstein said “God doesn’t play dice” but much of mother nature can be emulated with a random number generator. Are there “Physics Foibles”? Numbers are the Supreme Court of science. What would Godel say?

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