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    Debunking The 'America Does Not Invest Enough In Science' Myth
    By Hank Campbell | July 27th 2012 05:30 AM | 33 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Hank

    I'm the founder of Science 2.0® and co-author of "Science Left Behind".

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    Fareed Zakaria of CNN writes the Global Public Square column and expressed concern recently that America was losing ground in science because of research funding and education.  

    Well, it isn't true.  But he was kind enough to let yours truly and RealClearScience's Dr. Alex Berezow clarify a few things.  In our piece, we make a case I often make; when the government invests less in research funding, the private sector takes up the slack, so our research spending is not down, just the government portion is.  Second, that America education is not bad and it's time to stop bullying modern students because of standardized test scores.

    First, please give it a read. Zakaria was gracious enough to let us refute him in his own column and deserves some attention for that. Then I can make points that didn't survive editing:

    Has America really underinvested in science education? By Alex Berezow and Hank Campbell, Special to CNN

    Are you back?

    Okay, to flesh that out for a Science 2.0 audience, government funding of science was a direct result of World War II - it was part of the creation of the military-industrial complex because of the success of government control of science during the war. Of course private sector spending started to drop as a total - there are a lot of failures in research and rather than one company taking a hit, companies suddenly had 200 million people (and now 300+) to take the financial hit for null results. 

    But has actual spending overall dropped?  No, it hovers in the same range of GDP.  It does go up - ironically, when a Republican is president; ironic because Republicans are supposedly anti-science - and sometimes it goes down, but it never plummets. Academics tend to be in an echo chamber about research; namely that only government budgets count as funding. That is a mistake - while corporations have control over what gets researched it isn't any different than what government does. Anyone who thinks their research grant is more pure because it is from the NSF or NIH or DoE is being naive.

    The second oft-issued lament is about education. This is a big chunk of our upcoming book because it is a pernicious myth; education lobbyists love it because it gives them a reason to ask for more money. Conservatives love it because they get to say liberal teachers are the problem and teachers get to claim they aren't allowed to teach.

    But the ammunition is one test that, if we are being honest, always has some batty results.  In the PISA exam results that get rolled out for these occasions, America is in the middle of the pack.  Number one is Finland.  Yes, Finland.  If you don't know anything about Finland, they have the most conservative pedagogy you can imagine for the modern world; think British schools of a hundred years ago.  They are not teaching how to think, they are teaching how to take tests.  No one is claiming Finland rules science.

    In no instance does America top out on any international standardized test, and never has, nor should we expect them to. It's a meaningless result. America owns the high end of science because Americans are creative and learn how to think. Yes, that has its pitfalls when pundits want to note that American kids can't find Lichtenstein but in the real world, those test scores make no difference at all.  We mention that first standardized test in 1964 and note that American kids were next to last - and in the last 47 years America has led the world in both Nobel prizes and science output.

    It's something to keep in mind the next time you read someone in science media (or the even less informed kind) try to claim they were so much smarter as students. Their standardized scores stunk too.

    Comments

    "If you don't know anything about Finland, they have the most conservative pedagogy you can imagine for the modern world; think British schools of a hundred years ago. They are not teaching how to think, they are teaching how to take tests."

    Where do you come up with this stuff?

    What is the distinguishing feature of Finnish education? No standardized tests! None. In general there is very little of any testing in Finland and the younger kids aren't even graded.

    But you decided to flip the facts upside down to suit your own needs. Well done sir.

    Hank
    I can't think of a single famous Finnish scientist. I didn't say they teach how to take standardized tests - standardized tests did not exist 100 years ago - I said they teach how to take tests.  And they do.  That is why there is no homework, the curriculum is easier and teachers teach to the test so that students get 'good grades'.  PISA is the only metric where Finland does well. 

    I certainly agree that Finland produces fine average students - that's not good for science, though.

    One argument for Finland is that supposedly teachers are paid well - yet teachers in America are paid quite well, especially for only working 9 months per year - only Switzerland is ahead of the US in spending per child on education. 

    What they do get right is that bad teachers are fired - America does not allow that, unions demand tenure and therefore the youngest, most enthusiastic, most competent teachers are drummed out of the field.  We keep saying we want to hire more science teachers and every year as many quit as can be hired.  For reasons that have nothing to do with salary.  I think most Americans would happily trade closing all private schools (Finland) in return for making education have the same competence standard as any job (Finland), but good luck getting the NEA to go along with that. And without the NEA approving it, the American Education Department won't do anything.

    From an interview with Pasi Sahlberg, director of the Finnish Ministry of Education's Center for International Mobility in The Atlantic; "the goal of the program that Finland instituted, resulting in so much success today, was never excellence. It was equity."

    And it worked. One test every few years has Finland doing well - in the real world, nothing.  America is never going to settle for mediocrity so that everyone can feel like they are as smart as the smartest people.
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    "I can't think of a single famous Finnish scientist."
    I can't think of many Finns... there are only 5.4 million of them.
    Not a bad per capita income of nearly 50k per person... seems they are doing something quite well.

    Hank
    You seem to think I don't like Finland.  On the contrary, for a California guy who likes tall blondes all of those north countries are quite pleasant.  This article is not about Finland, it is about science education.  Only one test of the many given has Finland at the top, even the Finns were surprised when it was given and they were at the top, but using it to criticize America is silly, since none of the policies Finland has would be allowed in America, most notably letting teachers teach and firing bad ones.  Another commenter claims they don't fire bad ones because they only hire awesome ones, which is a pretty goofy assertion.  If they picked personnel that well, they would lead the world in everything, 5 million people or not.
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    "I said they teach how to take tests. And they do."

    Your saying that doesn't mean it's true. I'm looking for you to produce SOME evidence to support that claim. The truth is, Finland just tried to create an equal system and the good PISA results came as a by-product. The people in Finland were as surprised as anybody else when the first results came out. Please, point out to some practice where the Finnish education system trains its pupils for tests.

    "That is why there is no homework, the curriculum is easier and teachers teach to the test so that students get 'good grades'."

    And if the Finnish pupils don't do anything challenging, why do they do better than everybody else in these international tests? Because nobody pushes them? Their internal 'good' or 'bad' grades don't have anything to do with PISA. Your logic is quite flawless, I must say.

    "PISA is the only metric where Finland does well."

    Well, that's your opinion. Depends on metrics you count.

    If you are looking for most competitive economies, Finland is ahead of the good old US of A:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report

    Or
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legatum_Prosperity_Index
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic...

    "What they do get right is that bad teachers are fired"

    Again, wrong. The Finnish practice is to only train and hire good teachers, so there are no bad teachers to fire.
    --

    You are trying very hard, but try to hit the target.

    Hank
    Sorry that I don't take Wikipedia opinion, much less left wing blog site opinion, as being evidence about science education, but if I was so inclined this statement
    Again, wrong. The Finnish practice is to only train and hire good teachers, so there are no bad teachers to fire.
    shows you are out of your mind.  You must be Finnish to be so irrationally nationalistic, I am glad you are proud of it, but the assertion that Finnish hiring practices are never wrong is plain dumb and shows you are not interested in discussing education, you are interested in promoting a flag.  As I have said before, I love Finland - but that doesn't mean they are a model for education in America, since the government and the unions in the US will allow none of Finland's policies to be enacted.

    Also, I say again that using one test - and PISA is the only test where Finns are number one in education - is bad reasoning.  Why doesn't everyone who cares about education move to Finland?  A whole lot move to the US.
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    Well okay, you don't trust dirty pinkos or 'wikipedia' opinion (hint: those rankings aren't made up wikipedia users, there's actual research behid them, linking to wikipedia is just easier).

    Do what you want, think what you want, but you still haven't produced anything to support your claim that the Finnish education system is geared towards testing. And teaching to a test.

    UvaE
     PISA is the only metric where Finland does well.  
    In general, way too much importance is placed on how kids do on tests like PISA. Canada (finished third, just behind Finland in 2011) consistently does better than the United States on international tests, but having taught in both countries, I know better than to assume it means anything.


    The two countries share what works well, and we have very similar educational problems. The best science programs in either country evolved from Chem study, PSSC physics and BSCS biology, which are American innovations in response to Sputnik.

    And there aren't enough recycling bins on the planet to fit all the poorly written Canadian math textbooks. In fact, this summer, I gave my daughter an American book (Sobel) to learn and practice from!
    Gerhard Adam
    You've made the following statements before and I just don't get it.
    Science is difficult and jobs are limited. Perhaps a better strategy would be to modify America’s immigration policy. We should continue to open our doors to foreign students who want to learn at the best schools in the world. But we should stop making student visas easy to get while making work visas after they are educated difficult to acquire. That legacy of protectionism results in the world’s best and brightest being forced to return home to compete against us.
    http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/26/has-america-really-underinvested-in-science-education/
    If the point is that there aren't enough scientific jobs to fill the demand, which is why there is no problem regarding the U.S., then what jobs are these foreign students supposed to get?  Do we need more foreign janitors?

    I would also question the assertion of who we're competing with.  Other than manufacturing, which the U.S. isn't actually competing in, what companies are you talking about?  Where is all this competition? 
    Hank
    Ah, good question.  I am addressing two points; the first is that America wants to remain tops in science output. The lobbyist solution is to spend a bunch of money 'getting people interested' in science. But we don't need to convince people who want to be veterinarians to instead become scientists - and we can't turn dumb people into scientists, so they instead have to come from some other field they would otherwise join - we have lots and lots of foreign students who want to stay in the US. Then we have good doctors, good engineers and still plenty of scientists.

    As I often say, instead of turning more Americans into scientists, we should turn more scientists into Americans.  It would save us $5 billion in outreach programs that do nothing.

    The PhDs working as janitors (and even more in restaurants) are mostly humanities people but it addresses the fetish that 'more education leads to more money' - it used to, on average, but today when you subtract student loans, it isn't a better life. So we are not under-investing in anything, we spend a lot, just in dumb ways.


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    Gerhard Adam
    I certainly agree that we aren't "under-investing" and that outreach is a waste of money.  I would also argue that all of this also tends to undercut the quality of science as it is practiced.

    This isn't to question individual's ethics, but let's face facts.  Scientists need to make a living just as anyone else does, and when someone needs a job, they are much more apt to "go along" than to "buck the system".  As a result, I would expect that our current approach results in much more questionable science than the myth of the scientist as some hero in pursuit of the "truth".

    In short, I can't imagine any scientist that has just completed years of work/study, perhaps with small children, being in a position to act on "principle" rather than practicalities.  As I said, that's not a judgment against new scientists, but rather an observation of how our system works.
    Hank
    The sample size would be too small to be meaningful but it would be interesting to know how many of the 'whistleblowers', like in psychology over the past year, have been single.
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    In the real world of industrial science, I think Hank is correct on this. I worked for 12 years at a small biotech company (about 3-400 employees depending on where the company was in hiring/layoff cycles) and the company had to hire the maximum number of work visa scientists allowed by law in order to fill positions (up until the great recession, anyway). The company I currently work for only has 4 employees, but I'm the only natural born citizen. Two have obtained citizenship after working on visas for more than a decade (one from India, one from the UK) and one is a Chinese citizen on a work visa. The reality is that most of the time there aren't enough qualified American scientists out there to fill positions. I don't understand why we grant amnesty to people who come here illegally while making immigrants who are here legally and are serious drivers to our economy jump through so many hoops to become citizens. Think of it another way - when we have layoffs, all those foreign workers who get laid off take their skills back to their own countries making us less competitive. If they were US citizens, some might just start their own companies and come up with the next big thing (think Apple or Microsoft in the 70s or Facebook and Google more recently - the great drivers of our economy have always started with a single visionary - unfortunately, we're telling a lot of them we don't want them here).

    Gerhard Adam
    Sorry, but somebody is clearly wrong. 
    The reality is that most of the time there aren't enough qualified American scientists out there to fill positions.
    We can't have more jobs than scientists, and have 5,000 janitors with PhDs.  Something isn't right with these numbers.
    ...when we have layoffs, all those foreign workers who get laid off take their skills back to their own countries making us less competitive.
    How are we less competitive?  Who are we competing with?
    If they were US citizens, some might just start their own companies ...
    Well, now you've directly contradicted Hank, because that would be crazy to entice foreign students to stay here and start their own companies, while Americans can't get jobs as scientists.

    Unfortunately we always hear that tired old song from politicians about how these are "jobs Americans won't do", which is nonsense, but nevertheless it's been repeated enough so that people actually believe it in many quarters.  They neglect to complete the sentence which is that these are "jobs Americans won't do for the pittance you're willing to pay".

    So, one of two things is happening.  Either these foreign students are working for wages that no American will accept, or we have a shortage of scientists.  Hank indicates that we have more than enough people, but not enough jobs.  You're indicating we have the jobs, but not the people.  You can't both be right.

    We are in a unique time with a very high unemployment rate, but those periods don't last forever. As soon as the economy straightens out, any SCIENCE PhD will find a job easily. In my field, we are competing with any country willing to try to make the same products we make. If we train a Chinese citizen how to make a new drug, then send him back to China, that gives China a competitive advantage in designing new drugs. There aren't an infinite number of targets out there - as it stands, at any given time, there are often 5 to 10 different companies all trying to get their drug against the same target to market first (because the FDA no longer likes to approve "me too drugs"). Now if China gets in on the act, they could run our pharmaceutical industry into the dirt. And I honestly don't know any Chinese worker here on a visa who WANTS to go back to China. Lastly, I got laid off from my last job in a cut that took out 70% of the medicinal chemistry department. I now work for an immigrant who got citizenship and owns his own company, so I'm a perfect example of my own claim. If that company were to growth to 10,000 employees, then that is 10,000 jobs created by someone who we could have sent back to India instead. Whether natural born Americans fill those jobs or not is irrelevant because the money created from those jobs is in the US and not India. Make sense now?

    Gerhard Adam
    It isn't a matter of making sense.  It's the simple fact that you can't both be right. 
    As soon as the economy straightens out, any SCIENCE PhD will find a job easily.
    This statement flatly contradicts what you said earlier, because you indicated that all these foreign students were here until the economy tanked.  If there are 5,000 janitors with PhD's it isn't something that has only occurred within the past 5 years.
    Whether natural born Americans fill those jobs or not is irrelevant because the money created from those jobs is in the US and not India. Make sense now?
    I don't have a problem with that, although the average corporation obvious does, since they would rather have a payroll in India than in the states, but that's just my view.  So, if we're so concerned about competition, why is it that no one minds us growing foreign economies?  Again though, my question is simply ... who are we competing with [other than manufacturing].  I keep hearing about foreign competition, but frankly I think it's crap.  If there were a real competitive issue, we'd already be seeing industry scramble, but instead we simply see more posturing for preferential treatment, so they aren't worried.  In fact, it's hard to imagine much competition since most of the companies overseas are those same American companies that keep whining about competition.  So, I guess they're competing against themselves.

    I don't hold my breath waiting for people to start businesses.  IF this company grows to 10,000 employees, and IF those employees are Americans, then MAYBE we will derive a benefit from it.  That's a lot of IFs and MAYBEs. 

    However, I don't have a quarrel with anyone succeeding unless the opportunities are biased against Americans, so again ... the point remains.  You and Hank can't both be right.
    There is no contradiction. The pharmaceutical industry alone has laid off thousands of PhDs in recent years. Besides, you haven't provided how many of those were PhDs in science. You can get a PhD in anything. I have a friend who went $100K in debt getting a PhD in music and now she makes 20K a year giving piano lessons to brats.

    As far as foreign competition goes, what starts as a snowball rolling down the hill, and by sending a bunch of trained scientists back to China, we just created the snowball. You can't see it now, but look at the automotive industry. 40 years ago, it was probably much like pharma today. Very little competition, but those pesky Japanese were gaining a very small market share (but gaining). By 1980, we recognized that they were making a dent. By 1990, Japanese cars were considered more reliable by most Americans. By 2009, the big three almost went completely belly up (and if not for government intervention, two would be gone today). And you can be sure that the next time a major recession occurs, we will be back to either bailing them out or letting them go under. It isn't manufacturing that killed us, but innovation - science and engineering.

    We've developed monopolies in a lot of areas and that is why the US economy is so strong, but we are training foreign employees who actually want to stay here yet we are shipping them back home. That is really stupid. A lot of people think letting them get educations here makes us less competitive, but I disagree. You could never just get a college education and use that to design a new drug. It takes doing it in real life for 20 years to really understand how to do it. We're providing that.

    Gerhard Adam
    OK, so you've contradicted everything Hank has said.  In your post you claim we don't have enough scientists, engineers, or anything. 

    So, your position makes even less sense, because if that's true, then we should be expending more effort in encouraging Americans into those positions and subjects at school.

    It doesn't make any difference what foreign students do.  Whether they are here or not.  What matters is that we, as a nation, are failing miserably if we have all this opportunity and we don't encourage our own citizens to take advantage and capitalize on it.  To suggest otherwise is economic suicide.

    You keep insisting that there is no contradiction, but the contradiction exists between yours and Hank's conclusions.  I get what your position is.  However, it is contrary to the position articulated by Hank. 
    You can get a PhD in anything.
    OK, so now you're simply saying that Americans are foolishly squandering their opportunities on PhD's that have no economic value. 
    MikeCrow
    OK, so now you're simply saying that Americans are foolishly squandering their opportunities on PhD's that have no economic value.

    Yes.
    Never is a long time.
    And not just PhDs - the advent of Facebook has helped me get back in touch with almost all of my high school classmates, and a very significant number have worthless degrees (ie, you don't need a sociology degree to sell cars). Admittedly, some have gone back to school in their 30s after they got a reality check from life and have gotten (are getting) degrees that actually have job demand.

    UvaE
    a very significant number have worthless degrees (ie, you don't need a sociology degree to sell cars). Admittedly, some have gone back to school in their 30s after they got a reality check from life and have gotten (are getting) degrees that actually have job demand. 
    It's not just a problem of universities graduating too many students with impractical majors. (And why would administrators care and do anything to stop the nonsense if people are still willing to take on 2nd mortgages so their kids can get such degrees?) 

    What's not any better is offering practical programs that could easily be offered outside traditional academic circles in less time and at a much lower cost.  Thirty years ago when I found out the University of Connecticut was offering a major in interior decorating(or design), I realized most universities will use any gimmick to get students through their gates. Presently there are still several major colleges offering a major in interior design.
    Hank
    Nice. I often made fun of Columbia's 2-year Environmental Journalism program.  Cost:$80,000.
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    Gerhard Adam
    That's interesting that in a matter of a few posts, we've now been able to establish that the university system is no more honest than any other snake-oil salesman.

    So, they're not above selling you a foolish degree, despite supposedly having counselors and others that are supposed to be looking out for the student.   It's little wonder that the entire facade is being viewed with suspicion and skepticism.

    I find the notion of making fun of students, after we've saddled them with student loan debt and then virtually guaranteed that they won't be able to get a job to be disturbing.  
    Hank
    I don't think the snake oil salesmen idea is new.  I said it 20 years ago - declaring college education a 'right' was just going to balloon costs and accomplish nothing.  Since I moved to California, the University of California system tripled in size and when I have pointed out that doesn't make sense, academics have asked me why I don't care about education.

    The answer is simple: those two are not related.  I suppose I was making fun of anyone dumb enough to pay $80,000 to say they have a degree in environmental journalism - but not many students were that dumb, Columbia pulled the plug on it when the economy went bad.
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    MikeCrow
    But don't you think that by 16-17 students ought to have a little bit of sense about this? How many high paying Art History jobs are there?
    It's much like the jocks planning on a pro career, there's 10's of thousands of high-school, college athletes, and maybe 1,000 pro's/sport? But at least they sort of have an excuse, being not so good at math and such.
    I did the math on my dream career when I was about 12, ultimately I went into VoEd Electronics, and turned that free education into great career.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    Is that really the position we should be taking?  Don't trust the adults, don't trust counselors.  Be wary of everyone, because they want to take advantage of you.

    Is that what this country is all about? 

    UvaE
    Is that really the position we should be taking?  Don't trust the adults, don't trust counselors.  Be wary of everyone, because they want to take advantage of you.
    Obviously there are many trustworthy people working for universities and in education in general, but such institutions are microcosms of society in general. So if a country, from a combination of its policies and because of human nature, is over preoccupied with profits and sports, a university will unlikely be immune from those influences.

    Universities are rightfully held to a higher standard, so it's more shocking when we find out that some of their administrators are little more than ivy league scamsters ----not unlike when a minority of scout leaders or Catholic priests turn out to be pedophiles.
    Hank
    Not trusting adults is a baby boom thing; instead, adults are telling young people they cannot trust themselves.  Heck, they are now children until the age of 25, according to our latest big law, passed to help them because they cannot help themselves. Not to mention the nonstop criticisms of their test scores, their media habits, culture, weight, etc.
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    Where have you been? I started college 20 years ago and they told me exactly what I wanted to hear. I got a worthless "general biology" degree with expectations of getting a job in medical research. Finally after calling some pharmaceutical companies during my last year of that degree I realized they were looking for organic chemists to fill medicinal chemistry positions that I quickly changed course to make myself marketable. I even told my adviser what I thought of his terrible advice and he just shrugged it off with something along the lines of "what do you expect me to tell you? I'm a biology professor". But I do blame students as well for being naive and bullheaded. I've tried to convince a few that they need to do a little more research before majoring in "video game design" (as one example) and I haven't changed a single student's mind.

    Gerhard Adam
    That's good to know.  I'm glad that everyone is comfortable enough with this charade as to call it out in this manner.
    Where have you been?
    Unfortunately it appears that my cynicism isn't nearly extensive enough.

    So, I guess we shouldn't be particularly surprised when people get scammed on an education, and then become cynical that the activities in a university are somehow "objective" when it comes to administering any other aspect of public policy.

    I know, you've certainly convinced me that I should trust no one in academia to be anything other than another career bigot with a personal agenda.  So, while the public may still trust scientists and not necessarily be waning in their support ... I can see that they would only be made fun of for having such trust.  It seems that the primary point is that anyone that has such a trust, is somehow a sucker.

    Alright, let me ask you this simple question. Let's say you are a student who didn't get any advice for a major in college (in my case, how many high school advisers do you think actually know anything about medical research and what the best majors would be to enter that field?) and you decide to major in political science. Now you get paired with a political science professor as your career guidance counselor. Do you really think (s)he is going to tell you to change majors because that one doesn't have any realistic career prospects?

    I can tell you another one that I saw ALL the time with classmates - pre-med students with B averages who were never told that they didn't have a chance in hell to get into medical school. Haven't you ever wondered why so many student get a pre-med major when med schools will accept so few of them?

    Gerhard Adam
    I'm not surprised as much as I am disappointed.  What I do find surprising is that this should seem to be such an acceptable state of affairs in this discussion.

    I'm also surprised that no one is more upset when we have a plain case of taking advantage of students.  We're certainly taking money from unsuspecting parents.  All under the guise that they're too stupid to recognize that they're being taken advantage of.

    I always thought I was pretty cynical, but apparently I'm still not cynical enough.  You're absolutely right though.  From now on, I'll make sure to indicate to students just how gullible most colleges think they are, and that they should definitely hold everyone's feet to the fire to deliver on promises and if they get an inadequate education, they should sue them into oblivion.

    Personally you've just shown me that like most institutions, corruption is the standard and apparently everyone thinks that's OK.
    Do you really think (s)he is going to tell you to change majors because that one doesn't have any realistic career prospects?
    Well, that's interesting, because if they have so little integrity with respect to advising students, I can assume that they have even less integrity if it means an opportunity to advance their own careers.  So, I guess the "skeptics" are right.  It's only sensible to be "anti-science" or even "anti-academia" until they demonstrate that they are about something besides their own agendas.


    MikeCrow
    They're just people. Like the corporate people you're not so keen on, the academicians are people too.

    I think you have to look at what everyone says with a skeptical eye. But some are trying to do the right thing and provide a fair service, others not so much.

    But my argument about athlete's applies to most fields, there are good jobs in Art History, just not many of them, but if you're outstanding in your field you can probably find work in the field of your choice. So should the councilor discourage people, or should they point out that the student has to up their game if that's what they want to do? My son once called me dream-crusher, but they missed the point, it wasn't that they couldn't make it into pro sports, it was that if they wanted to make it in pro sports they had to work harder than ever before. But the worst case is planning on an outcome, but not doing the hard work to make it happen.
    Is that all the councilor's fault?
    Never is a long time.