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    Love Thy Neighbor Applies, Even When There's Money At Stake
    By Hank Campbell | July 15th 2012 03:07 PM | 66 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Hank

    I'm the founder of Science 2.0® and co-author of "Science Left Behind".

    A wise man once said Darwin had the greatest idea anyone...

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    Most people do not want war in their backyard.  In geopolitics, people claim to love their neighbor but they still prepare to fight; Switzerland, the home of neutrality, still has hundreds of forts built into their mountains and young men are required to own a gun(1). 

    It isn't just military aspects.  In American academia, there has been a 25 year shift in political representation so now, with few conservative neighbors, it is easy to ridicule Republicans, conservatives or anyone not part of the ruling demographic.  It is easy because there is no 'neighbor' to look the attackers in the eye or even punch them in it. This neighbor effect is why welcoming liberals keep quiet as kooky progressives make every issue where there are representation differences about gender bias, stereotype threat or some other made up sociological term. It keeps the peace. 

    Some psychologists claim 'love thy neighbor' may actually be hard-wired into our brains.  Now, before you bristle at the notion that psychologists can tell us anything at all about neuroscience, please recognize that these psychologists gleaned their results by watching a TV show. Take that, evolutionary biologists.

    Loving thy neighbor is not a new idea, it has been known since having neighbors originated.  In the 1960s, Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram conducted a series of famous experiments and found people were less likely to give electric shocks to a person in the same room than to people in another room.  Milgram concluded it was not just a neighbor effect but that authority figures held an unnatural sway over people, even making them commit ethical violations they would claim not to do.   Independent people recognize this danger in social authoritarianism today - if they can come for your Big Gulps and your goldfish, they can train you to agree to turn on anyone in the interests of public good just by invoking their authority.

    Modern psychologists can't perform electric shocks, even the Milgram experiment simulated kind,  on people - well, they can if they are being funny in "Ghostbusters...



    ...so they rely on surveys of college undergraduates and, when that is too much work, reality television.

    "The Weakest Link" television program, says Dr Paul Goddard and his students from the School of Psychology at the University of Lincoln, is an example of 'forced choice decision-making' and therefore a social laboratory to examine how subject-specific bias can influence choices. If you are not familiar with it, "The Weakest Link" involves a team of contestants who answer questions and each 'chain' of consecutive correct answers earns more money for the communal pot.  At the end of each round, the 'weak link' in the chain of contestants is eliminated.  It seems easy to assume that more money is gained by having the smartest people remain but that is not the goal - the goal is to gain the most money for yourself, so that means a different strategy is sometimes needed.  But can it be neighbor bias when you are with a group of people you may never see again?

    Maybe.

    To determine this 'proxemic bias', they watched 72 episodes of the show and created what they believed was a metric for how votes should fall based on probability and distance and then noted how the votes for elimination fell in reality. Obviously getting a vote is a negative so it was easy to determine the relationship based on distance, provided you bought into their standard for how likely the closer people were to get a vote.  Contestants were less likely to vote for their direct neighbor, which the viewers attributed to 'the neighbor avoidance effect' - yet the voting was much stronger when everyone, close or far, felt the candidate was weak.  Regardless, they still call it 'bias'.

    Even odder bias; women voted more against women than men, if their spatial probability benchmark was accurate. So women prefer men as neighbors and will vote off women to get that, whereas men are on a much higher cultural plane and are more fair on who they vote off?

    Sure, you can believe that, if you can also believe psychologist claims that liberals have prettier daughters, we are hard-wired to like a certain kind of car grill and people with messy offices are racist.

    In other words, some methodology skepticism is warranted, even if you are inclined to believe watching TV shows can speak to us about the human condition. 

    Data: Findings presented Friday at the Society for the Advancement of Behavioural Economics (SABE) Conference 2012

    NOTE:

    (1) Not surprisingly, Switzerland is incredibly safe in contrast to the UK, which holds the top three spots in the developed world in violent crime and bans guns. There are, however, diminishing returns.  Somalia has high gun ownership and can hardly be called safe, even compared to Wales after a Cardiff loss.

    Comments

    Gerhard Adam
    ... Switzerland is incredibly safe in contrast to the UK, which holds the top three spots in the developed world in violent crime and bans guns. There are, however, diminishing returns.  Somalia has high gun ownership and can hardly be called safe...
    Which, clearly proves my point.  If you have guns, then also having lots of money, chocolate, and perhaps clocks, will make you more secure and feel safer.  On the other hand, having lots of guns in a desert with no money, will simply piss you off and likely make you become violent.

    If you agree, perhaps we can consider that peer-reviewed and get it published. :)

    Perhaps we could even write off a trip to Switzerland to gather data.  We can just look at CNN coverage regarding Somalia, since we are already forecasting that Somalia is dangerous.  After all, Newton didn't have to jump from a building to demonstrate gravity.
    There is a point worth making here. No ethics committee/review board today will allow studies like those conducted by Milgram. And without ethics approval you won't be publishing, even if you did decide to conduct the research anyway. It is (increasingly) difficult to do any rigorously controlled research with human participants, because ethics committees will only allow minimal deception. Unfortunately, deception is often necessary to rule out obvious confounding.

    Now, TV production companies do not need any ethics approval(1) and I have often (cynically) wondered if psychologist should approach TV production companies with an idea for an ethically difficult study, turn it into a TV program and then 'merely observe', which can then be published. Of course, other problems exist not least that of participant selection. However, it is one way around the vexed issue of ethics, thus experimental design.

    Note that the Milgram studies have been replicated in several TV programs and they obtained very similar results.
    (1) The term ‘media ethics’ is thrown around a lot but it is mostly paying lip service

    Hank
    Now, TV production companies do not need any ethics approval(1) and I have often (cynically) wondered if psychologist should approach TV production companies with an idea for an ethically difficult study, turn it into a TV program and then 'merely observe', which can then be published. Of course, other problems exist not least that of participant selection. However, it is one way around the vexed issue of ethics, thus experimental design.
    It's a good point. Psychology is dismissed as not science today but that was not always the case, it is just that the science studies make those 'terrible' lists (see also: Harry Harlow) so now we are stuck with surveys of undergraduates or, in this case, undergraduates watching TV and compiling statistics and considering it science. 
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    I disagree.  The problem of "experimental design" exists precisely because there is no theory to be tested for, and consequently everything is a fishing expedition.  It seems the expectation is that if we conduct enough experiments, then perhaps a theory will suggest itself.

    I'm sorry, but we have hundreds of years of human history, we have severely conducted impromptu "experiments" that have been conducted over the past 100 years, and it would seem that anyone that is willing to look closely enough would have some basis for formulating some sort of theory against which modern experiments can be constructed.

    It just seems to me that no one has any idea of what they're actually looking for.
    Surely 'experimental design' isn't the problem?
    With good theory there is still a need for experimental design.
    And not everything in psychology is a fishing expedition, although I agree much is, often exacerbated by using numerous outcome measures - a shotgun approach (apologies for mixing the metaphors). Studies on the efficacy of prayer (although I wouldn't lump these studies with psychology) often use this approach and capitalise on chance - many use 50-100 outcome measures and thus the chances of finding a statistically significant effect are excellent. Utterly meaningless though, especially when other studies show an 'effect' with a different outcome. Of course then it is reported that prayer can affect several outcomes.

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    'It's a good point. Psychology is dismissed as not science today but that was not always the case'
    Presumably you are just talking about your own opinion here Hank, so does that mean you used to consider psychology a science when psychologists could still conduct Milgram type, torture experiments on undergraduate student population samples?
    Make love not war
    Hank
    No, the only people who consider it science today are psychologists, much like economists, astrologers and political scientists claim to be science.  But are not.  

    You are trying to use emotional verbage to create a claim no one argued about.  My point was simply that the Milgram experiments were science.  I did not say they were ethical. 
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Yes but surely the Milgram experiments also don't count as science because they were only conducted on undergraduate students, who are not a fair representation of the population as a whole. BTW I'm agreeing with you, using just undergraduates as the population for any psychological study and then making sweeping deductions about the behaviour of people in general, is definitely not scientific.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I think undergraduate students can be legitimate subjects, just so long as they're being examined for the right reasons.  For example, you saw me leveling the criticism about using them in assessing "death".  Similarly it would be difficult to take undergraduates seriously about many other aspects of life, that they simply haven't experienced, simply because it is easy for a psychology experiment to begin with ... "Imagine this scenario ... ".

    Gerhard Adam
    I do wonder though what the ethical arguments are here.  After all, when people voluntarily participate, and there is no physical harm being performed, what exactly are the ethical dilemmas that are being encountered here.

    It seems that the biggest issue is that people were forced to see exactly what kind of behavior they were individually capable of.  While perhaps it wasn't pleasant, I fail to see the ethics issues involved here.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    There was psychological harm Gerhard, the subjects or 'teachers' were crying and extremely upset believing that they had killed the 'learner'. Surely you can see that is an unethical experiment?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Not sure about that.  I'm not clear on why it is unethical to let people experience the consequences of their beliefs and behaviors.

    Why isn't it unethical to place people with no training and experience in charge of prisons like at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, or in numerous other places where they will be subject to such real world experiences that are truly traumatic.  Yet, somehow to make people recognize that they are capable of such behaviors is considered unethical.

    Since these people were volunteers, the mere fact that the results of the experiment gained them personal insight [regardless of how painful such a revelation might be] doesn't strike me as unethical.  It was their own behavior.

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Not sure about that.  I'm not clear on why it is unethical to let people experience the consequences of their beliefs and behaviors.
    Maybe you are right, but its no wonder psychologists can only normally get mainly undergraduate students to participate in their psychology experiments these days! When I was a psychology undergraduate student we were forced to complete something like 60 hours a year of being an experimental subject in our psychology department's ongoing psychological experiments as a course requirement, non compliance meant no psychology degree! 

    No wonder 60% of the people in Milgram's experiments were afraid to stand up to authority and say no. This kind of behaviour is often conditioned out of people by their parents, their schools, their colleges and their workplaces and even their peers. Not surprisingly, many of those who do say 'no' to authority and right wing authoritarianism end up in prisons or mental institutions, have their rights taken away, are diagnosed with conduct disorders and may finally end up being 'leftie terrorists' and anarchists or worse still escape into drugs or the ultimate defiance of suicide.

    I often wonder about the thousands of soldiers at Gallipoli, from both sides, who were ordered over the trenches into the firing line by their officers to a certain death and wonder why they didn't just say 'no'. Apparently many did and these soldiers were then shot by their own officers. Over the ages I imagine that evolution has not favoured people who defy authority, so I guess we should be happy that Milgram's experiments, however scientific or ethical they might have been, showed that 40% of males in his sample, were still able to stick to their own principles and say 'no' to obviously unprincipled authority and dictatorship. I wonder how many contributors here at Science20 would? 
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    You're going too far by simply translating the Milgram experiment into a defiance of authority.  Such a position isn't warranted by the experiment itself, nor the underlying message.

    In the first place, it is the role of authority in compromising your actual moral values regarding right and wrong.  This are presumably the values you were raised with and share with most of the society you are in.  Therefore, the question is whether your adherence to authority is sufficient to override what are presumably base values you hold.

    However, even then, we have to consider that merely saying "no" may not be the most prudent action to take in a direct confrontation, so the objective is to make your point without necessarily putting yourself at risk either.  Again, if the subjects had demonstrated some sort of attempt at subterfuge, or anything to indicate that they were trying to resist authority, then there might be a basis for such a belief.  However, they did no such thing and insisted on "following orders".

    The last situation regarding Gallipoli has nothing to do with anything in this case.  Part of the problem there is the necessity of ensuring that one follows lawful orders [which is one of the stipulations in the military, contrary to popular belief].  So, there isn't necessarily a blind adherence to obeying orders, but the issue of combat is completely different from anything else.  People will get killed over a variety of issues, and one needs to ensure that it isn't something stupid that results in your getting killed.  Moreover, the act of shooting an officer is called "fragging" and has been reported frequently enough to where many junior officers are aware and concerned.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The last situation regarding Gallipoli has nothing to do with anything in this case.  Part of the problem there is the necessity of ensuring that one follows lawful orders [which is one of the stipulations in the military, contrary to popular belief].  So, there isn't necessarily a blind adherence to obeying orders, but the issue of combat is completely different from anything else.  People will get killed over a variety of issues, and one needs to ensure that it isn't something stupid that results in your getting killed
    Blind adherence to obey a lawful order telling me and my fellow soldiers to jump out of our trench into the Gallipoli fighting line to a certain death, which was the size of a few tennis courts and which was covered in dead bodies from soldiers from both sides, who had been ordered to do the same for the last few months to no avail, would surely be 'something stupid that resulted in your getting killed' so therefore following your logic, would defiance to authority in this situation then be justifiable? You say that :-
    Moreover, the act of shooting an officer is called "fragging" and has been reported frequently enough to where many junior officers are aware and concerned.
    What is the act of an officer shooting a soldier that won't obey a stupid order condemning him and his mates to certain and pointless death called? Surely that also has a name as it has definitely been done to thousands of non-compliant soldiers throughout history?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Well, I think you're misreading a much more complex situation than you're portraying here. 

    Let's be clear about something.  Despite popular mythology, soldiers, especially in combat are not blind adherents to orders.  If they cannot trust the officers that are leading them, they will likely rebel, mutiny, "frag" the officers.  Therefore, the element of trust between the officers and enlisted is absolute and needs to be understood and examined to understand the dynamic that occurs in such situations.  This is especially true, when the circumstances may be severe and survival uncertain.

    While I can't speak specifically about the details at Gallipoli, as well as being reluctant to question the motivations of anyone that is caught in any of those kinds of circumstances.  I do feel confident in expressing the view that most soldiers are going to be afraid and uncertain.  Therefore, it becomes a non-trivial decision to consider who one listens to and who one believes as being the most likely to help them get out of a bad spot and survive it.

    As a result, even if it involves extreme sacrifice and casualties, the fact that men would continue to engage in such behaviors, tells you more about the level of trust they had regarding their leadership than about any nonsense of "blindly following orders".  Certainly if soldiers were being shot by officers, then it was with the implicit support of the other troops. 

    Bear in mind, that contrary to the simplistic portrayal of such circumstances, it isn't like one simply decides to no longer fight, and say ... 'Sorry ... guess we screwed up.  Shall we do lunch?'

    In many cases, such a move might result in becoming a prisoner and being just as likely to die as if you stay and fight.  Similarly, even a retreat can result in the entire unit being decimated, so deciding "not to fight" isn't always a plausible position.

    If you wish to understand the psychology of such situations, then imagine yourself in a situation of where it is only you and the people that surround you.  There is no higher authority.  There is no enforcement agency.  You all have weapons.  You are all capable of killing each other, and you are all equally likely to be able to do so without consequences.    For example, if I'm a sergeant and decide to shoot the lieutenant in front of all the troops and face them, saying I'm willing to shoot anyone else that opposes me ... what do you think the likelihood is that someone might "complain"?  Do you think anyone would say ... "Ahh .. I don't think you should have done that."

    At some point, you come to the psychological realization that you can easily be killed and buried, and no one would even know.  At that point, is when you come into contact with reality.  Everything else is psychobabble and wishful thinking.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Certainly if soldiers were being shot by officers, then it was with the implicit support of the other troops.
      Ha ha ha! Very funny, you've got to be joking? Is there a name for it though, why should just shooting an officer or fragging get its own name?
    At some point, you come to the psychological realization that you can easily be killed and buried, and no one would even know.  At that point, is when you come into contact with reality.  Everything else is psychobabble and wishful thinking. 
    Yes, thousands of them did, those poor young men! Every community hall in this rural district here where I live in Byronshire, has a memorial plaque which lists hundreds of their names, often 3 or 4 brothers from one farming family.
    If you wish to understand the psychology of such situations, then imagine yourself in a situation of where it is only you and the people that surround you.  
    Actually, to really understand the psychology of the situation you need to realise that Winston Churchill who was ordering this strategy probably did not value the Australian soldiers lives as much as he should have and even saw them as cannon fodder maybe? I don't know what the psychology of the situation was on the other side, probably they were just defending their homeland and their stronghold, which is easier to comprehend.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Sorry, but you're choosing to deliberate not understand.  You make the same mistake that so many civilians do and you disrespect the very people that you think you're concerned about and are honoring.

    Every statement you've made is potentially insulting, and in some cases it is severely insulting.  Not that you intended it that way, but you've specifically chosen to ignore the manifestation of these things in the military.  More importantly, you're able to do so from the safe proximity of a home that isn't threatened, under conditions that you don't have to make life/death decisions, and where you don't have the responsibility of others lives on your hands.

    Again, I don't know where you're getting this:
    Yes, thousands of them did, those poor young men! Every community hall in this rural district here where I live in Byronshire, has a memorial plaque which lists hundreds of their names, often 3 or 4 brothers from one farming family.
    For Australia, as for many nations, the First World War remains the most costly conflict in terms of deaths and casualties. From a population of fewer than five million, 416,809 men enlisted, of which over 60,000 were killed and 156,000 wounded, gassed, or taken prisoner.

    The outbreak of war was greeted in Australia, as in many other places, with great public enthusiasm. In response to the overwhelming number of volunteers, the authorities set exacting physical standards for recruits. Yet, most of the men accepted into the army in August 1914 were sent first to Egypt, not Europe, to meet the threat which a new belligerent, the Ottoman Empire (Turkey), posed to British interests in the Middle East and the Suez Canal.

    http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/ww1.asp

    So, you're painting a picture of these soldiers that they [and their families] apparently disagreed with, since they volunteered for such duty.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    OK, I was wrong, they weren't conscripted, they volunteered to be cannon fodder in Turkey for Britain and Lord Winston Churchill and his obsolete battleships and poor tactics based on erroneous reports. 
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Somebody wins ... somebody loses.  Not every battle is an act of genius, and even the best plans are often wasted.  It's all in the perspective of the winners/losers.  That's not a basis for complaint.

    While you can criticize Churchill and use loaded terms like "cannon fodder", the reality is that

    (1) Australians volunteered to participate in that military role, AND
    (2) Australians elected to participate in a war/conflict that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM.

    So, if you wish to criticize, then go back to your fellow citizens and ask what motivates them [and others like them, in other countries] to engage in conflicts that have nothing to do with them. 

    Perhaps then, you might have a basis for complaint.  Until then, that's the first psychological question that should be answered.  Personally, I believe people have the right to make their own choices and to live with the consequences of those choices.  I don't accept the notion of voluntarily participating in something and then complaining when it doesn't necessarily turn out well.
    Gerhard Adam
    ...to really understand the psychology of the situation you need to realise that Winston Churchill who was ordering this strategy probably did not value the Australian soldiers lives as much as he should have and even saw them as cannon fodder maybe?
    No, it tells me that you're choosing to intentionally misunderstand and to label this according to your own bias.  Although it is interesting to see how that bias is manifest and how clearly you don't seem to notice it.
    Gerhard Adam
    What is the act of an officer shooting a soldier that won't obey a stupid order condemning him and his mates to certain and pointless death called? Surely that also has a name as it has definitely been done to thousands of non-compliant soldiers throughout history?
    Sorry, but I have to call you out on this one.  While this sounds dramatic, it is also clear that you have never been in a situation of where you had such authority so that you [and others] could act with impunity.

    The reason why I say that, is because it is clear that you don't understand how precarious a leader's position was.  Therefore, decisions had to be taken firmly, unwaveringly, and with a sense of fairness that the other troops would accept.  If it was perceived as unjust or arbitrary the officer's likelihood of survival would plummet to zero. 

    This was readily seen in the circumstances surrounding a mutiny at sea.  Can you imagine yourself in such a position, so that only YOU are the law and order, enforcement arm ... you must mete out punishment, take responsibility for everything that goes wrong, and ensure that you and your men survive the entire voyage ... it is a decidedly unenviable position to hold and required extremely strong, willful and trustworthy men.

    So, before you condemn the officers a Gallipoli for issuing "stupid" orders, bear in mind that trench warfare was a stalemate, up and until someone broke through.  If the Australian soldiers had deserted, then the victory would have gone the other way.  How many others may have died or been compromised because of one group failing to hold on to the bit of real estate it was responsible for?

    Study the battles of Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, and Tarawa to get a perspective on how many people can die for what is little more than a rock in the Pacific Ocean ... Believe me ... these men didn't die believing they were obeying "stupid orders".  They knew exactly what was at stake and what it would likely cost them.
    MikeCrow
    They knew exactly what was at stake and what it would likely cost them.
    And why they are called Hero's.
    Never is a long time.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    And this is how the wounded Gallipoli heroes were treated on the 'obsolete' ships:-

    'The sufferings of  these wounded men were great. It might naturally  have been expected  that the worst discomforts  would have ended  with the journey  down the  hillsides.  On  the contrary, the  worst began when  they  left the  Beach. Many spoke of  it  afterwards as a  nightmare. The tow  through the dark seemed interminable-the  ships had been moved  further out afterthe  heavy shells  fell near them  in the  morning. Barges crowded  with wounded were hauled  round in thedark from  one  transport to another  until they  found one  not already over crammed.  The  stream of  casualties was so constant that transports which  were receiving lightly wounded men  up the gangways sometimes failed  to  notice the seriously hurt  who lay  in barges beside  the  ships.

    Beside  the Seang Choon  one barge  lay from  6  till 11.30  p.m., open to  the chilling rain,  in  a choppy sea, bumping into  the ship’s side, butted  by  the  launch  next to  it.  There were  men  in it with arms smashed to pulp, men brokenin every  part  of their bodies.  The bumping of the barge was punctuated  with curses, moaning, the sighs of men praying to die. For  half of them sea-sickness was added to their other miseries. A seaman’s head would appear over the ship’s rail high above and disappear again; but the barge might have been there till morning, had not a wounded officer written to the authorities aboard, saying that he was a personal friend of General  Birdwood  and threatening an inquiry. 

    Aboard  the  improvised “hospital  carriers” conditions existed  which may scarcely be described. The  Clan Macgillivray and the Seang Choon were probably the best staffed of the original transports. Yet the Clan Macgillivray carried 850 wounded with only two doctors, and the Seang Choon, packed in every space with from 600 to 800  wounded, had only three. The  broken men were lucky if they had a hard  table to lie onfor the next four days, with life-belts for pillows. The  endless stamping  of horses in the Liitsow prevented  sleep.'

    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    So, what's your point?  The fact that war is a miserable business?  The fact that people suffer, are injured, and die in war?  That plans may go bad? 

    You're not exactly providing any new information here, beyond seeming to simply want to rant about the injustices of war.  OK.  Despite what you may think, Gallipoli wasn't the worst situation, it wasn't the first, nor will it be the last.

    It is all well and good to rail against war, and it would be a wonderful thing if it didn't exist.  However, that won't ever happen.  Certainly because of the changes in warfare, we need to be more prudent about the use of force, and to ensure that our politicians don't find it too easy to go adventuring.  Nevertheless, that doesn't actually have much bearing in discussing a battle that took place nearly 100 years ago.

    There are plenty of horror stories to go around.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    So, what's your point?  The fact that war is a miserable business?  The fact that people suffer, are injured, and die in war?  That plans may go bad?  
    My point is the same point that I made at the start of this discussion with you, about obedience to authority when authority is obviously wrong. The plans for the invasion of Turkey via Anzac Cove had been leaked and the Turks had 4 weeks to get well-prepared on all the vantage points on top of the huge cliffs. Most people involved from day 1 in this situation at Anzac Cove knew the invasion was impossible. However, our Australian officers and soldiers bravely continued to obey the stupid orders of that distant British authority for months, while tens of thousands of them died or were wounded and suffered terribly either on the tennis court sized battle field or later on the obsolete ships. Understandably "Suicide Ditch" was a term used by the soldiers to refer to the front-line trench. 

    It took an act of defiance against authority to finally bring about the order for the long awaited evacuation. War correspondent Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett wrote and sent a letter explaining the real situation at Gallipoli via Rupert Murdoch's father, Keith Murdoch to the British Prime Minister Asquith on the 8th September 1915. The letter was intercepted and confiscated in France by the military but Keith Murdoch continued to London and verbally delivered its contents to PM Herbert Asquith, with much emotion, creating the subsequent furore when the truth was finally out. IMHO this was another very sensible act of defiance against stupid authority and very relevant to what Milgram was exploring in these experiments.

    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Not at all.  You're conflating so many different positions, the only thing that makes sense is that you're obviously upset about the whole thing.

    Milgram's experiment was quite clearly about following authority against your own moral judgment towards others.  It was nothing about only affecting yourself.  The whole point was whether an individual could commit an act against another individual that they felt was wrong.

    When someone is making a decision about themselves, then that's a completely different issue and the criteria for behaving in a particular fashion is different.

    Regarding your analysis of Gallipoli.  Again, you are talking from the benefit of hindsight, since the information you're claiming is nothing something that would have necessarily been available to the soldier in the field. 

    I understand your point about defiance, but surely you can't be suggesting that everyone defy every authority every time they have a suspicion that something is wrong.  If that's your point, then be done with it, advocate anarchy and stop pretending that it's about anything else.

    When you say "most people knew", I doubt that you know anything of the sort.  I suspect that perhaps some of the high command might know, but even then ... what of it.

    Let's cut to the chase.  Forget all the other crap about the planning.  Men have gone on suicide missions, or on missions where the likelihood of survival was very low.  Now matter how you look at it, you do them a disservice by suggesting that they are blindly following orders, rather than acknowledging that they are voluntarily in a situation where they recognize the importance and role of a chain of command.

    You keep trying to turn this into something that it is not.  Most issues related to authority are completely voluntary, where people choose to listen and obey.  Whether to do so or not, is based on their own personal choices and their own limits or boundaries as to what they will do.

    As I said, Milgram was testing whether those boundaries could be stretched when asked to act against others.  This bears absolutely NO resemblance to the situation of men obeying their officers in combat.  None, nada, nyet ...
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Gerhard, you are wearing me into the ground by constantly misrepresenting what I have said, so you will probably reply to this again by misrepresenting what I am saying here but I'm also persistent so here goes :-
    Milgram's experiment was quite clearly about following authority against your own moral judgment towards others.  It was nothing about only affecting yourself.  The whole point was whether an individual could commit an act against another individual that they felt was wrong.
    Yes, and you repeatedly made me imagine being an officer at Gallipoli, obeying authority and ordering young soldiers under my command, like the learners under the teachers control, to their certain and pointless death from 'suicide ditch' and following orders to shoot those who disobeyed, so that hypothetical scenario that was of your making, was and is still very relevant to Milgram's experiments!
    Regarding your analysis of Gallipoli.  Again, you are talking from the benefit of hindsight, since the information you're claiming is nothing something that would have necessarily been available to the soldier in the field.   
    It was not from the benefit of hindsight! What part of the following facts don't you understand? 
    'the Anzac Cove cliffs were too high to scale in this kind of an attack, the information that the attack being viable was based upon was wrong, there were way more Turks than anticipated and due to bungling by the British the Turks had 4 weeks to dig trenches, bring in troops and supplies and set up cannons in strategic positions to be ready and waiting' 
    There was no need for the benefit of hindsight as this was all obvious from day one to any of the thousands of soldiers being killed and maimed as they landed on the beaches by the tens of thousands of Turks and their cannons ready and waiting on the massive cliffs above them. They also knew from day one that they were totally exposed on the beaches to the Turks bombs, which is why many of the Australians stopped even bothering to try to avoid shells and walked around as if they didn't exist! 

    They also knew without any need for hindsight that the ships that they arrived in were obsolete, under resourced and ill equipped unless they were blind. Anyway, I've had enough of all this. I was talking to my father last night and he said Gallipoli wasn't as bad as the fighting that both of my grandfathers experienced on the Western Front and that this kind of shambles and huge expenditure of young lives was a normal, daily occurrence in the First World War, where millions lost their lives. Nowadays war is hopefully a bit  better reported thanks to the media and also thanks to people who defy military authority to get the truth out to the public, like Bradley Manning and Julian Assange, the modern day equivalents of Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett and Keith Murdoch. 
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Your words are being represented by you, so you don't need to worry about my misrepresentation.
    Yes, and you repeatedly made me imagine being an officer at Gallipoli, obeying authority and ordering young soldiers under my command, like the learners under the teachers control, to their certain and pointless death from 'suicide ditch' and following orders to shoot those who disobeyed, so that hypothetical scenario that was of your making, was and is still very relevant to Milgram's experiments!
    Sorry, but we are going to have to disagree.  The officers were in charge and did not have someone in authority standing over them.  They took the course of action that they thought was the most appropriate [although clearly we don't know what they were specifically thinking].

    I do notice that you talk as if you think the officers thought that they were more protected than the men they commanded.  You do realize that the officers weren't immune from being captured or killed or having to fight?  As a result, you're framing this argument as if they were giving orders from some position of privilege.

    Again ... if I were in command and I thought that we only had a narrow opportunity to survive and I had someone belligerent in the ranks that openly disobeyed an order I gave ... under those conditions, I'd shoot him too.  There is a reason why civilians are not in charge of military units.  When you are in a military unit, you hopefully understand the stakes and your role.  If not, then you probably shouldn't be there. 

    However, you're making unsubstantiated claims doesn't help.  On the one hand you say:
    It was not from the benefit of hindsight! What part of the following facts don't you understand?
    ...and then follow it up with this quote.
    ...the information that the attack being viable was based upon was wrong
    Which clearly indicates that the information was "wrong".  That takes hindsight.  It doesn't indicate that it was proceeding despite having the correct information.  It says that the information about the "attack being viable" was wrong.  There's nothing sinister or malicious about that.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Sorry, but we are going to have to disagree.  The officers were in charge and did not have someone in authority standing over them.  They took the course of action that they thought was the most appropriate [although clearly we don't know what they were specifically thinking]. 
    Of course they had someone in authority hypothetically standing over them, their senior officers all the way to the top via Hamilton to Churchill. No wonder you refuse to accept that psychology is a science if you have to literally interpret every psychology experiment including Milgram's as only applying in that specific setting of a teacher, a learner, electrocuting equipment, orders for the teachers to electrocute the learners, feedback of screams from the learners, someone in authority standing over the teacher in a white coat urging them on! 

    If you are going to be that literal in your deductions from Milgram's obedience to authority experiments then you can't then say as you did above, that the Milgram experiments apply to the Nazi death camps, Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo either, unless the form of torture being experienced in these camps was electrocution and the person in authority ordering the electrocution was wearing a white coat, urging the 'teacher' and the learner was screaming and begging them to stop. 

    It wouldn't apply if the teacher was starving, gassing or waterboarding the 'llearner' as the latter for example is 'a form of torture in which water is poured over the face of an immobilized captive, thus causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning. Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and death. Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.'  


    Difficult for the 'teacher' to hear the 'learner' beg for mercy at the Nazi death camps, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo when his mouth is full of water or when there is no one giving him food for him to beg to or worse still if he is in a sound proof gas chamber with hundreds of others screaming for mercy too. So why do you say that the Milgram experiments apply to the people in charge of these death and torture camps any more than they do to officers at Gallipoli, ordering their soldiers to certain death from the 'suicide ditch' and shooting them if they plead for mercy or say no?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    ...the subjects or 'teachers' were crying and extremely upset believing that they had killed the 'learner'.
    Actually I would be a bit harsher.  Again, within the context of the times, everyone was busy pounding their chests in righteous indignation, at the behavior of the Nazi's and the treatment of prisoners in the death camps.

    Yet, let's be honest ... what these subjects found upsetting, was that they were exactly the same people.  In other words, what was psychologically traumatic, was realizing that they would have stood right next to the German soldiers that they had just tried and allowed the camps to continue operating.  That's the trauma. 

    In my view, the only thing that is unethical is our persistent desire to allow people to retain their fantasy beliefs about themselves.  Perhaps if significantly more people had gone through such an experiment, then we might have a population that is a bit more honest with itself, instead of indulging in the same behaviors as these Milgram subjects and yet managing to deny that the outcomes would be the same.

    Helen, Milgram's studies were NOT conducted with undergraduate students. He made a point of NOT using students and trying to get a cross-section of the population (as much a self-selection allows).
    I'm not familiar with Milgrams "torture experiments".

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Yes you're right, Milgram did a series of experiments and he didn't use women until Experiment 8. However, I seem to remember reading somewhere, when I was doing a psychology assignment about these Milgram experiments, that the majority of the males who responded to the newspaper advertisement looking for paid male volunteers to partake in the first 'learning' experiment were primarily undergraduate students. Either way, I doubt if they were really representative of the general population as a whole, most of whom would not respond to such an advertisement.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Whether they were undergraduates or not, they were certainly in a representative age group that was worthy of examination, since this would have been representative of the military age that most subjects would be during a state of war.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    this would have been representative of the military age that most subjects would be during a state of war. 
    Milgram said himself that his experiments were about 'Obedience to Authority', that was the name of his paper and that is what it explored. You yourself point out that his subjects were of the military age that most subjects would be during a war, so why question the connection to Gallipoli and obeying orders in the comments above?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    ..because Milgram's experiment is more appropriate to how prisoners would be treated and the behavior of guards.  This would not be applicable to soldiers following orders in combat.  Normally you don't associate moral dilemmas with that situation [presumably if you are in the military, it doesn't come as a complete shock that you could end up in a war].

    In other words, it would be no different than the psychology of the Japanese internment camps in the U.S., as well as the German soldiers that bought into the idea of the Jewish death camps.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    .because Milgram's experiment is more appropriate to how prisoners would be treated and the behavior of guards. 
    Only in your head Gerhard. Both the officers at Gallipoli who ordered thousands of young conscripts, average age about 18, to their certain deaths and the soldiers themselves who obeyed that authority from their officers, are relevant to this Milgram experiment about 'Obedience to Authority'. Anyway, let's drop it, otherwise a Science20 'authority' might turn up here soon and delete all these comments :)
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Read the other posts regarding the military.  Perhaps you'll get a better understanding.  The most seriously fallacy in your position is that there was a non-violent, let's just go home option that was being intentionally ignored.

    As I said before, I'm certainly no expert on Gallipoli, but I seriously doubt that most of the soldiers would've survived a retreat.  So with the daily exchange of hand grenades, retreat was not an option, and opposing forces also rushing your defenses ... what decision would you have made?  Tell me what you would have consider the "smart" decision under the circumstances there [also while difficult, try to avoid hindsight]?

    Consider how the evacuation was actually carried out.
    Ironically the evacuation was the greatest Allied success of the campaign. Suvla and Anzac were to be evacuated in late December, the last troops leaving before dawn on 20 December 1915. Troop numbers had been progressively reduced since 7 December 1915 and cunning ruses, such as William Scurry's self-firing rifle (described below), were used to fool the Ottomans and prevent them discovering that the Allies were departing. At Anzac, the troops would maintain utter silence for an hour or more until the curious Ottomans would venture out to inspect the trenches, whereupon the Anzacs would open fire. As the numbers in the trenches were thinned, rifles were rigged to fire by water dripped into a pan attached to the trigger. The entire Allied force was evacuated, but large quantities of supplies and stores fell into Ottoman hands.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

    So, what would you have done differently?
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    So, what would you have done differently? 
    I would have pointed out to Lord Winston Churchill that Lord John Fisher was right and that he knew now that he had made a bad judgement based on 'erroneous reports' and that the disposal of obsolete battleships was not a good enough reason to use any troops as cannon fodder and then I would have taken away his supply of alcohol and tobacco until he admitted it.
    Later in November 1914, First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill put forward his first plans for a naval attack on the Dardanelles, based at least in part on what turned out to be erroneous reports regarding Ottoman troop strength. He reasoned that the Royal Navy had a large number of obsolete battleships which could not be used against the German High Seas Fleet in the North Sea, but which might well be made useful in another theatre. Initially, the attack was to be made by the Royal Navy alone, with only token forces from the army being required for routine occupation tasks. First Sea Lord John Fisher opposed the campaign and instead preferred a direct naval landing on the north coast of Germany, but Churchill won the argument.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I would have pointed out to Lord Winston Churchill that Lord John Fisher was right...
    Well, I'm impressed that you are routinely asked for advice at such levels.  However, my question was aimed more at the lower echelons, such as if you were an officer in charge of making these "stupid decisions".  What would you have done differently?  and what would the basis for it be [what would you hope to accomplish]?
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    I would have considered 'fragging' Lord Winston Churchill but presumably that wasn't an option? I would have probably realised like everyone else, except for Lord Winston Churchill who was either too proud or stubborn to admit that he had made a mistake, that the Anzac Cove cliffs were unscaleable and that the Turks had been given way too much time to prepare for the attack. So I would not have ordered any of my troops to certain death, instead I would have encouraged the inertia that eventually set in before the final sensible, inevitable evacuation was eventually ordered:-
    Inertia set in. Alan Moorehead records that one old Ottoman batman was regularly permitted to hang his platoon's washing on the barbed wire without attracting fire, and that there was a "constant traffic" of gifts being thrown across no-man's land: dates and sweets from the Ottoman side, and cans of beef and cigarettes from the Allied side. 
    Following the failure of the August Offensive, the Gallipoli campaign entered a hiatus while its future direction was debated. The persistent lack of progress was finally making an impression in the United Kingdom, with contrasting news of the true nature of the campaign being smuggled out by journalists like Keith Murdoch and Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett, so discrediting Hamilton's performance. Disaffected senior officers such as General Stopford also contributed to the general air of gloom. The prospect of evacuation was raised on 11 October 1915 but Hamilton resisted the suggestion, fearing the damage to British prestige. He was dismissed as commander shortly afterwards and replaced by Lieutenant-General Sir Charles Monro



    Photo by Clare of the unscaleable cliffs and battle grounds of Anzac Cove.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Sorry, but your rationale is based on the benefit of hindsight.  You've offered no strategic nor tactical reason as to why you would have made such a decision.

    However, once again .... you are acting as if the war is yours to singularly engage.  I'm talking about being an officer at Anzac, having to determine what daily actions to take or not take.  That was what your comment about "stupid orders" is based on.

    Judging overall political and military decisions based on the leadership isn't a luxury that a soldier can afford.  You are in the situation you are in, and that's what has to be dealt with. 

    I also don't believe your assessment about the cliffs being unscalable.  It seems that you have an axe to grind regarding Churchill, since blaming him seems to be more convenient than the full range of military leaders that probably all had some culpability in the plan and its implementation.
    I would have considered 'fragging' Lord Winston Churchill but presumably that wasn't an option.
    That's called "assassination", and no it isn't an option.  Again, you are letting some emotional issue cloud your judgment and you've long since passed any point of a reasonable discussion regarding what constitutes "blind following" of authority.  If you truly believe that each soldier has an option to simply assassinate any leader they disagree with, then you have a very strange sense of how these things work.

    After all, there is an old military maxim that "all plans are great until the first shot is fired".
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    You've offered no strategic nor tactical reason as to why you would have made such a decision. 
    Yes I have! I said that the Anzac Cove cliffs were too high to scale in this kind of an attack, that the information that the attack being viable was based upon was wrong, that there were way more Turks than anticipated and due to bungling by the British the Turks had 4 weeks to dig trenches, bring in troops and supplies and set up cannons in strategic positions to be ready and waiting, that thousands of dead soldiers bodies were rotting and covering the tennis court sized piece of land that they were fighting for and that these soldiers had died to achieve nothing for months. I also said that my strategy would be to keep as many of my soldiers alive as possible in such an insane situation and to encourage the 'inertia' that did eventually lead to the inevitable, sensible, decision to retreat unfortunately after thousands of young soldiers from both sides had died such appalling deaths. What more do you want?
    After all, there is an old military maxim that "all plans are great until the first shot is fired". 
    Yes, that's probably true, especially if the gun making the first shot is pointed at you.


    I would have considered 'fragging' Lord Winston Churchill but presumably that wasn't an option.
    That's called "assassination", and no it isn't an option.  
    I was only joking, if 'fragging' Lord Winston Churchill had been an option someone would have done it already :)
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Sorry, but your entire argument is based on some emotional reaction based on hindsight.  In other words, you're making judgements based on information you couldn't have  had at the time.

    More importantly, you continue to argue this from an overall strategic/tactical perspective, despite my having told you that you would have no such information available to you as an officer/soldier on the line.  Arm chair analysts, always have a better solution, but that usually doesn't help the poor sap on the ground.

    You're thinking too much "big picture" and thereby avoiding the actual issues of what it means to be a soldier having to make such critical life/death decisions.  In other words, you don't think about the overall strategy of the war when you're on a landing craft actually looking to hit a beach under enemy fire.  When you see shells exploding around you, and realize that it's as much about luck as anything, you aren't thinking about whether the generals are pursuing sound strategies.  You hope, but ultimately the objective is to keep your head down and hope nothing stray hits you.

    So, under those latter circumstances, where you are stuck in a stalemate, .... what are your choices, and what decisions do you make that aren't "stupid decisions"?  After all, that's the authority that the troops are following.  They aren't listening to Churchill or anyone else.  They're listening to some captain or lieutenant [in all likelihood] who's charged with holding this position for however many weeks or months and trying to advance. 

    There are no orders for retreat or evacuation and there won't be for several months.  Now you're hunkered down in a trench with the enemy always contemplating the same scenario ... so... what decisions do you make?  Don't tell me about the British, or the Australians, or the Turks, etc.  Tell me about yourself and a few men that have to deal with this situation.  That's the reality on the ground.

    Also, let me be quite specific.  It doesn't matter whether it is a good strategic decision or a bad one that puts you in this situation.  There are plenty of bad military decisions that have been made.  How do you keep yourself and your men alive, for however long it takes?
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Sorry, but your entire argument is based on some emotional reaction based on hindsight.  In other words, you're making judgements based on information you couldn't have  had at the time.
    That's not true, they knew as soon as they arrived that the British had bungled the whole operation that the Turks had been given advance warning and were well-prepared in every way, to fight off the invasion at Anzac Cove and nothing but massacre after massacre then followed. There were also soldiers dying and wounded and no facilities to handle these huge numbers from day 1. If you don't believe me read this :- 
    Official History of Australia in the War of 1914–1918
     Preface by Professor Robert O’Neill - This preface was written for the University of Queensland Press editions which were published in the 1980s and is applicable to all volumes.· 
     Volume I – TheStory of ANZAC from the outbreak of war to the end of the first phase of theGallipoli Campaign, May 4, 1915 (11th edition, 1941)· 
     Volume II – TheStory of ANZAC from 4 May, 1915, to the evacuation of the Gallipoli Peninsula(11th edition, 1941) 
    In particular read this about just 'the clearing of the wounded' :-
    THE morale of troops in the Great War, was always the stronger for their knowing that they were cared for by those in charge of them. The manner in which the stretcher- bearers attended them in situations of great danger contributed largely to that end. On the other hand, their faith in the higher staffs began to be shaken during the Gallipoli campaign through the breakdown of all medical arrangements on the line of communications. The sufferings of these wounded men were great. It might naturally have been expected that the worst discomforts would have ended with the journey down the hillsides. On the contrary, the worst began when they left the Beach. Many spoke of it afterwards as a nightmare..... 
    I stick by everything I have said so far. My main concern as an officer at Gallipoli on the first week and even after several months of fighting to no avail under such insane geographical and military obstacles, would have been to support the inertia that eventually precipitated the evacuation that should have happened on the first week and to try to keep my soldiers alive until then, but I'm a woman, a mother of teenage boys and I'm anti-war so maybe this is an emotional response? Is that such a crime?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Is that such a crime?
    It's not a crime, but it's also not helpful.  The problem is always how to deal with a bad situation, where things may go terribly wrong, and where you may be in terrible positions.  As a leader, especially, you can't simply throw up your hands and complain about the bad decisions of the leadership.

    The evacuation wasn't going to happen during the first week no matter what.  More importantly, Gallipoli isn't even the worst of the types of situations that can occur, but it doesn't answer the basic issues that gave rise to this.  You started off by going off on the officers and soldiers for "blindly following orders" and you made it seem that this adherence to authority was the root problem.

    My point is that such interpretations are easily made by people in safe situations, but aren't so readily discernible in real combat.
    ...but I'm a woman...
    Don't even drag out that excuse.  You have a brain, I expect that you can apply to the problem at hand.
    ...they knew as soon as they arrived...
    Again, that answers nothing.  If the same had happened on D-Day [Normandy], do you think they would've quietly gotten back on their ships and said ... 'excuse me ... '? 

    As I said ... read up on Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, etc.  Then you'll get an idea of what hitting a beach is all about and how it makes little difference if the enemy is dug-in and well-prepared or not.  You can oppose such actions all you like, but it doesn't address them.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Is that such a crime? It's not a crime, but it's also not helpful.  The problem is always how to deal with a bad situation, where things may go terribly wrong, and where you may be in terrible positions.  As a leader, especially, you can't simply throw up your hands and complain about the bad decisions of the leadership.
    Who said anything about me throwing up my hands and complaining about bad leadership? I am on the front line in a trench half way up the slopes of Anzac Cove, I must be less than 1000 metres inland because that's the furthest inland point that the Anzac troops achieved and that was nowhere near the top of the practically unscaleable cliffs. I'm crouching down with my platoon and I have several options, order them to run forward and immediately get shot and wounded and/or die on the tennis court sized battle ground. 
    A battle ground that is knee deep in dead and wounded soldiers from days, weeks or months of battle for that same tennis court sized bit of ground, below these Anzac cliffs covered in Turks with cannons, its irrelevant, or I can order them to keep shooting at the opposition who are doing the same from the relative safety of their trenches and hill tops. In this situation I would do the latter and hope for the inevitable inertia that did eventually set in because of the ridiculous situation. 

    If on the other hand I was ordered to order my troops to charge directly into this certain death to achieve nothing other than show the Turks that our poor young lives are completely dispensable to the Commanding Officers, then  I would run with my soldiers too and die. I would not crouch there waiting for the next platoon of cannon fodder to arrive to follow my same orders to a certain death or injury for nothing, again and again, which is what I read some of these officers had to do. I would find it very difficult to shoot a young soldier who looked me in the eyes and said 'no' to this command from me. This is all about obedience to authority Gerhard, which is what Milgram was exploring in his experiments.
    You started off by going off on the officers and soldiers for "blindly following orders" and you made it seem that this adherence to authority was the root problem. 
    No, I said I had often wondered about what it must have been like in this situation of being expected to follow stupid orders that would achieve nothing and would cause certain death or injury to me or my soldiers. What you are saying is that this is not relevant to the Milgram experiments because it is a military situation so its different. Yet you also said the Milgram experiments were relevant to the Nazi death camps and those in charge of prisons like at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo. I think you are cherry picking Gerhard. 
    ...but I'm a woman...Don't even drag out that excuse.  You have a brain, I expect that you  can apply to the problem at hand.
    OMG do you think that by saying I'm a woman somehow implies that I'm making excuses and implying that I don't have a brain? You are walking very dangerous ground, almost as dangerous as the ground at Anzac Cove! I'm proud that I'm a woman, women see things differently to men, that was all I was inferring and as a mother of teenage sons I cannot bear to think of these young men with their whole lives ahead of them dying such terrible and pointless deaths because some distant, ill-informed, inexperienced (at this stage) Commanding Officer can't admit that he has made a big mistake. 
    ...they knew as soon as they arrived...Again, that answers nothing.  If the same had happened on D-Day [Normandy], do you think they would've quietly gotten back on their ships and said ... 'excuse me ... '?  
    They would if they could have probably.
    As I said ... read up on Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, etc.  Then you'll get an idea of what hitting a beach is all about and how it makes little difference if the enemy is dug-in and well-prepared or not.  You can oppose such actions all you like, but it doesn't address them. 
    Yes, I will read them when I get time, as long as you read the links above that I gave you about Gallipoli?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I think you are cherry picking Gerhard.
    Not cherry picking.  The difference is that as a guard you are in a position of both safety and authority.  As a soldier in the field are you likely neither.  They represent two completely different situations from which to evaluate authority.

    Milgram's experiment did NOT apply to the latter situation.
    Gerhard Adam
    One thing that is fascinating is the ethical considerations regarding deception in psychological experiments.  This suggests to me that "someone" doesn't understand much psychology.
    Of course - as soon as someone knows they are being observed, they (potentially) change their behaviour.

    I believe I can reasonably accurately predict your (Gerhard's) behaviour (ie your comments in response to to certain other comments and stories), but as soon as you hear me make that prediction I've added an element of uncertainty. If you comment as predicted you have supported my assertion, but if you don't then I have changed your behaviour. If you didn't know about my prediction you would behave as normal, predictably.

    This is a problem for psychology and deception is one way of controlling for it. It get's done in medicine with the placebo. The problem for psychology (if we are talking about the clinical 'healing' stuff) is that if you want to affect change (say reduce 'depression') and you believe you have an intervention that works, what do you compare that to? Placebo? But if a placebo is a psychological response as a result of knowing or believing something, then we still have a psychological intervention. It makes doing research very difficult, unless you start comparing your new intervention to the previous best intervention. However, in that sense ALL psychological interventions ARE placebos and you could argue that research into psychological interventions (I'm off topic now) is research into the placebo. It all becomes a bit circular.

    Gerhard Adam
    Well, you probably could predict my behavior, given a certain domain constraint and time frame.  I'm not convinced how much credit to give psychology for that, since many people routinely engage in such predictive behavior to the people around them.  I suspect, it's because humans already recognize a great deal of what constitutes "human psychology" and are quite adept at "reading" others and predicting how they are likely to behave.  Much like economics, psychology has been practiced by humans for a much longer period of time than just the period in which it has been recognized as a "scientific" discipline. 

    However, let me go so far as to say that it doesn't just become "a bit circular".  That's its origin and entire basis.

    After all, isn't psychology merely one brain/mind attempting to peer into the workings of another?  That was always one of the questions I felt should be researched regarding psychologists themselves ... what kind of mental state must exist for someone to think that their brain was better qualified [or suited] than others to examine the brain/mind state?  It always seemed that there had to be a certain like of disconnect or arrogance for someone to believe that [assuming they were pursuing psychology as something other than as just a job].
    "It simply sounds like psychology is being stifled by an inability to be imaginative in constructing experiments. Of many sciences, they have the easiest path to follow and yet they seem to whine the most about these things. For the most part, they simply strike me as being lazy."

    Interesting comment and I partially agree, although I think it's a bit of a sweeping statement that psychology as a whole is "stifled by an inability to be imaginative in constructing experiments". As for the lazy comment, yes, a huge number of people conducting 'research' in psychology take a lazy approach and it is getting worse. I think it is a terrible cycle in which ambitious supervisors (ambitious in the sense of furthering a career, not ambitious in the sense of doing difficult research) become the role-models for young researchers and they follow that lead. Supervisors show how to take shortcuts and the new generation researchers use those shortcuts and add their own. And then it spirals out of control. I think social psychology particularly suffers from this, but I don't believe that is true for all area. I have a soft spot for behaviourists who plod away in an area that is just not 'sexy' but seem to produce results. If there are theories in psychology, that is where you'll find them.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the easiest path to follow" though.

    Gerhard Adam
    Sorry, it sounds like you responded to a comment that I ultimately ended up deleting. 

    Actually I deleted it, because I felt I was being a bit too sweeping and simplistic regarding some of the issues [particularly the ethical issues]. 

    I think that if we just look at psychology from the perspective of understanding the human mind then we need to consider a more over-arching set of definitions and considerations.  Many of the experiments could be conducted with animals, since we would expect to see precursor type of behaviors in lower animals, before they occurred in humans.

    Also, in my view, 99% of human psychology should involve or focus on deception.  I would suggest that no individual can encounter other people during the day and remain 100% honest in their interactions.  Therefore, it seems that a significant part of studying human psychology would, of necessity, involve having to deceive subjects.  Yet, if this is considered unethical, it seems that such a standard essentially prohibits researching psychology.

    After all, why should it be unethical to deceive a subject if it isn't equally unethical [and uncontrollable] if a subject deceives a researcher?
    Gerhard Adam
    Helen

    I'm going to respond to your last comment down here, to free up some room.
    Of course they had someone in authority hypothetically standing over them, their senior officers all the way to the top via Hamilton to Churchill. No wonder you refuse to accept that psychology is a science if you have to literally interpret every psychology experiment including Milgram's as only applying in that specific setting of a teacher, a learner, electrocuting equipment, orders for the teachers to electrocute the learners, feedback of screams from the learners, someone in authority standing over the teacher in a white coat urging them on!
    Perhaps instead of letting your mouth get away from you, you might actually read Milgram's experiment which was quite explicit:
    According to Milgram, there are a number of situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:

        The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
        The fact that the study was sponsored by Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
        The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
        Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent
        expert.
        The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.

    http://psychology.about.com/od/historyofpsychology/a/milgram.htm
    That was one of the explicit conditions of the experiment, so don't play fast and loose and suddenly change the conditions and circumstances claiming that you have the same experiment.  That's precisely why psychology isn't a science, because of such antics.
    If you are going to be that literal in your deductions from Milgram's obedience to authority experiments then you can't then say as you did above, that the Milgram experiments apply to the Nazi death camps, Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo either,...
    I hope at this point you recognize the absurdity of your argument.

    The specific points of the experiment were:

    (1) authority in physical proximity.  The farther removed, the less obedience was observed.
    (2) the physical presence of the "victim".  [NOTE: there actually is a victim, otherwise the experiment makes no sense.  This is why you claiming that the soldiers are victims of the officers is a ridiculous claim].

    Remember, you're the one that claimed that the soldiers were "blindly obeying" authority in partaking of these suicide attacks.  Yet, how they can be obeying authority and be the "victim" at the same time?  You can argue that they were coerced, but there was no coercion in Milgram's experiment.  Neither "teachers" nor "students" were threatened with harm.  So, if the soldier's are "blindly obeying", and the officers don't have the proximity of their leaders, then how does this resemble Milgram's experiment?  More importantly, where is the evidence to suggest that these officers were morally opposed to the decisions they were making [which is another key ingredient to Milgram's experiment].

    Your claim against Churchill is patently absurd, since his participation [more precisely the degree of his specific involvement] wouldn't even necessarily have been known to those on the ground.  To suggest otherwise is naive.  Again though, your argument with political leadership is indicative of misunderstanding Milgram's experiment as well as the reality of the military. 

    So, again Helen.  Take some time to review the material and stop focusing on simply being a smart ass.  You need to pay better attention to the conditions of your psychology test rather than presuming that it is a "one size fits all" scenario simply because it involves obedience.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    OK, I will, but it will take some time, I have pressing horse duties, so watch this space :)

    BTW don't you think that this debate about psychology not being a science should really be a debate about what distinguishes soft sciences from hard sciences and how to help soft, social sciences like psychology and sociology to become harder, more useful sciences, with more laws, hypothesis and useful, predictable outcomes and explanations that we could better use here for example? 

    As far as I can see there are many forms of science, a spectrum really and some are soft science and some are hard science, just like there is say soft porn and hard porn but they are both still porn! Anti-porn campaigners probably dislike hard porn more than soft porn and anti-science campaigners probably dislike hard science more than soft science but does that really mean that the soft sciences are encouraging people to be anti-science, any more than soft porn is encouraging people to be anti porn?
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    BTW don't you think that this debate about psychology not being a science should really be a debate about what distinguishes soft sciences from hard sciences and how to help soft, social sciences like psychology and sociology to become harder, more useful sciences...
    That seems to be part of the general misunderstanding.  Why does something have to be "harder" in order to be considered more "useful"?  Where did you ever derive that connection?

    The "hardness" or "softness" of the discipline relates specifically to how rigorously it can be conducted.  In my view, the primary difference is that it's easy to enter the realm of the ridiculous in the soft sciences, because there are fewer "guideposts" and fewer "standards" against which the data may be interpreted.  As a result, it is much more subject to context and individual interpretations in order to derive meanings.

    The "harder" sciences are easier to control [within the specific discipline] because the ability to move into different interpretations is much more difficult.  However, as should be evidenced by many posters, even the hardest science isn't exempt from crackpots.

    The "soft" sciences aren't useless.  They are just subject to wilder assertions that may need to be reined in more.  That's what I find so frustrating about subjects like psychology, etc.  They could be much more rigorous if they simply asked harder questions or limited the scope over which they wished to apply it.  One giveaway is when claims are made that are obviously too inclusive.  They simply cover too much territory.  That's usually a sure sign that a particular study isn't rigorous enough.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    So, again Helen.  Take some time to review the material and stop focusing on simply being a smart ass.  You need to pay better attention to the conditions of your psychology test rather than presuming that it is a "one size fits all" scenario simply because it involves obedience. 
    Well according to this article in the Political Science Reviewer which extensively analyses Milgram's book and the rationale for his experiments :-
    Despite these and the difficulty of the subject matter, Obedience to Authority is a well written, remarkably clear and sometimes compelling book. Chapter1, "The Dilemma of Obedience" states the rationale for Milgram's series of experiments and gives a brief overall description of the experimental procedure. Revealingly, the very first paragraph puts the problem of obedience in the context of Hitler's destruction of the European Jews, for Milgram throughout 'Obedience to Authority' will mix straight description of scientific experiments with commentary that applies his research findings to what he calls "the dilemma of obedience." "Obedience," he says, "as a determinant of behavior, is of particular relevance to our time, "(1) because obedience to the orders of totalitarian regimes is what made the Nazi death camps as well as other monstrous acts of inhumanity and war possible in the twentieth century.....   
    Disobedience is the ultimate means of resolving tension, but is a difficult act, which arises as a series of stages; inner doubt, externalization of doubt, dissent, threat, and finally disobedience. While it destroys the experiment, disobedience is nevertheless a positive act. In the next two chapters, Milgram presents objections to the validity of the experiments and his refutation of them. Chapter 13, "An Alternative Theory: Is Aggression the Key?," deals separately with the thesis that the subjects in the experiment obeyed because the scientific setting allowed the release of their latent aggression. This explanation is based on Freuds notion that destructive forces are present in the personality of all individuals but usually remain suppressed. Presumably, the experiment, by giving legitimacy to the expression of aggressive behavior, allowed the release of destructive instincts.
    Milgram denies the validity of this alternative explanation, however, stating that obedience and not aggression is the key to why men kill in war, for example. He also cites experimental evidence for this view, noting that when the teachers were allowed to choose their own shock level, very few went beyond the learners first protest.
    Milgram's experiments are therefore also relevant to Gallipoli and why men will still obey stupid orders, both officers and soldiers obeying orders to commit suicide to achieve nothing really. Orders sent from distant officers who were not even aware of the true situation and when they were, for some absurd reason, probably pride or fear of reprisals, could still not admit that they had made a terrible mistake and give orders to evacuate. 

    As I mentioned earlier, it took a brave act of defiance against the military authorities, by war correspondent Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett who wrote and sent a letter explaining the real situation at Gallipoli, via Rupert Murdoch's father, Keith Murdoch to the British Prime Minister Asquith in September 1915 to inform him of what was really happening at Gallipoli and the likelihood of total defeat.


    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Milgram's experiments are therefore also relevant to Gallipoli and why men will still obey stupid orders, both officers and soldiers obeying orders to commit suicide to achieve nothing really.
    Well, now you're just talking silly.  Yeah, I know you're going to get all upset that I would say that, but realistically you truly have no idea what you're talking about.  You show disrespect to individuals that are in the military, simply because you refuse to understand it.  OK, I get that you're against it.  Get over it and be thankful that there are people that are prepared to follow "stupid orders" to keep you safe.

    You wish to pick on this particular battle, then again you're simply demonstrating your naivete.  Yes, it may well have been stupid, it may have been idiotic.  However you have demonstrated that you have absolutely no respect for the sacrifice of these men, by essentially ridiculing them for being stupid. 

    Now, I can also predict that you're going to get all indignant and claim that you never said they were stupid, despite every comment you've made is dripping with sarcasm simply because you insist that the scenario at Gallipoli has to fit into Milgram's experiment despite the fact that you've altered everything so that there is no resemblance at all.

    So, at first it was the men following stupid orders, then it was also the officers following stupid orders, and undoubtedly you will say everyone was stupid until you finally get to Churchill.  Great.  Does that make you feel better?  Does that help explain anything? 

    The fact is simply that you don't like the military, so why not just drop it.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The fact is simply that you don't like the military, so why not just drop it. 
    That's rubbish, I have enormous respect for these soldiers and officers who lost their lives fighting wars and for the military. My grandfathers and some uncles fought on the Western Front and were badly affected psychologically and physically, one was a mounted Dragoon in France and they were also sitting targets in their bright red jackets high on a horse. Eventually they realised this and dismounted them.

    What I am trying to do here is look at Milgram's experiments and see what they help us to understand with regard to obedience to authority when it is obviously wrong. It is generally accepted in Australia that we lost thousands of young men at Gallipoli in a badly organised campaign but still we honour their memory. Every community hall has a plaque listing the dead soldiers names, often several from one farming family, that we see above the community hall stages where our children perform school plays and concerts. Every night at 6pm in many of the clubs in Australia there is still a bugle and a recording saying 'lest we forget' and a minute of reflection, as everyone stands and faces to the West in silent memory of those gallant soldiers who died fighting for their country. I'm happy to drop the subject now, we've both said our piece and we will just have to agree to disagree like you said earlier.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    What I am trying to do here is look at Milgram's experiments and see what they help us to understand with regard to obedience to authority when it is obviously wrong.
    As I said ... you don't understand it.
    Gerhard Adam
    One more point that I feel compelled to clear up, Helen.

    Your entire tone presumes that officers were basically staying behind [perhaps having tea] while they ordered troops to attack.  Wrong.  Not true.

    Consider the following few posts (NOTE: commissioned refers to officers)
    MOOR, George Raymond Dallas. Second Lieutenant, 3rd ® Bn, Hampshire Regiment.
    5 June 1915 - "Near Krithia, Gallipoli, noticing a detachment of a battalion falling back undr Turkish attack, he shot the leading four men of the battalion. His action stopped the retreat and he was able to lead the battalion forward. As a result the trench was recaptured."

    At first I was quite shocked when I read this citation. A VC for killing four of his men !
    On the other hand this drastic act looks to have saved the day.
    http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=127474

    The absence of information which seems to have hampered operations at Suvla was largely owing to casualties amongst senior Officers.
    http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175741


    To contain commissioned losses before the final attack my battalion had Officers lent from each unit in Bde and three or four NZ Officers who joined at night and had to lead without seeing their men in daylight. The battalion continued to advance after all Officers were casualties. This should merit commendation they had not sufficiently received.
    http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175741

    So there is hard evidence that a full 3 months prior to the Suvla Bay landings it was acceptable for Officers at Helles to dress as soldiers in order to make themselves less conspicuous to the enemy when in the front line. It seems to me to be quite a failing that these basic tactical measures, learned at such a high cost, were not implemented before the Suvla landings. Officer casualties* in the first few weeks of Suvla Bay were catastrophic  - averaging over 90% in the assaulting troops of the battalions** of the 10th and 11th Divisions - and arguably one of the main reasons for failure in the critical first weeks.
    http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174942

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Your entire tone presumes that officers were basically staying behind [perhaps having tea] while they ordered troops to attack.  Wrong.  Not true
    OK, I've read all your links and yes it looks as though a disproportional amount of officers died at Gallipoli. Its also obvious that for most of the campaign they were easy to spot in their officer uniforms and carrying revolvers instead of rifles. if I had been fighting on either side I would have also targeted officers, wouldn't you? Even this description of the lost generation of World War 1 mentions how :-
    In Britain the term was originally used for those who died in the war, and often implicitly referred to upper-class casualties who were perceived to have died disproportionately, robbing the country of a future elite. Many felt "that 'the flower of youth' and the 'best of the nation' had been destroyed," for example such notable casualties as the poets Isaac Rosenberg, Rupert Brooke, and Wilfred Owen, composer George Butterworth and physicist Henry Moseley.
    The fact that a disproportional amount of officers died at Gallipoli does not necessarily mean that they were leading their troops into battle, it might just mean that they were sitting ducks for the Turks to pick off. As I mentioned before, the Turks were well prepared and dug in, there were tens of thousands of them on the cliffs above. Probably all they had to do was take aim and shoot at the sitting ducks! More evidence to me of a badly organised campaign and a ridiculous, futile loss of life.
    Make love not war
    Hank
    The fact that a disproportional amount of officers died at Gallipoli does not necessarily mean that they were leading their troops into battle, it might just mean that they were sitting ducks for the Turks to pick off. 
    I try to stay out of these threads because the less you know what you are talking about, the more you seem to want to write - but this is among the dumber things I will read this week. 
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    That is exactly what Gerhard's links are saying, that the officers wearing officers uniform and carrying revolvers instead of rifles caused them to be targets. Read his links before ridiculing me for quoting them!
    So there is hard evidence that a full 3 months prior to the Suvla Bay landings it was acceptable for Officers at Helles to dress as soldiers in order to make themselves less conspicuous to the enemy when in the front line. It seems to me to be quite a failing that these basic tactical measures, learned at such a high cost, were not implemented before the Suvla landings. Officer casualties* in the first few weeks of Suvla Bay were catastrophic  - averaging over 90% in the assaulting troops of the battalions** of the 10th and 11th Divisions - and arguably one of the main reasons for failure in the critical first weeks. 
    http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=174942 
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I would suggest you stop before you get any sillier.
    as with any other saying, people generally ignore this one too when it suits their purpose. or rather, they only follow it when it does. but carrying guns isn't exactly asking to get shot, is it?and it is undeniably easier to shoot at sitting ducks, even ones with guns.we do what we can to stay safe. and there are no generic solutions.