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    Thanks, Economists - More Taxes On Meat Will Reduce Global Warming?
    By Hank Campbell | January 25th 2011 11:34 AM | 43 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    Without question, a booming worldwide population and the need to feed them have resulted in greater greenhouse gas emissions.   The goal of any civilized society has always been to make food affordable to everyone regardless of income and we are converging on that rapidly.   If anything, the rising obesity problem is because we are reaching a Utopian ideal of enough food for everyone in richer countries.

    But the greenhouse gases from food production are a concern and one proposed solution by a group of economists in Sweden is to increase taxes on meat and milk (but not fruit and vegetables, far bigger industrial polluters than meat and dairy, which will make the vegetarians happy), meaning poor people will be able to afford less and farmers will make less.    
     
    Because these are economists their logic is simple; taxes of €60/ton CO2eq on meat and milk could reduce greenhouse gas emissions from European agriculture by around seven percent.  As I have done in the past, the daisy chain of these spurious percentage numbers usually leads to someone claiming it and a flawed model behind the results but people wanting to believe it and so they shelve their skepticism.

    Even more speculative, they assert that if the dairy and meat farmers then convert their land to bio-energy production, the decrease in emissions can be six times greater, though where they got that number is a question since no bio-energy is carbon neutral yet.  Perhaps, like the 'gallon of gas per pound of beef' claim by one vegetarian and '140 Liters Of Water In My Cup Of Coffee' claim by a 'virtual' water advocate, the numbers are made up but because they have an air of truthiness to other believers, it gets repeated and data mapped to those beliefs.

    In the article, these economists state that reduced meat, milk and egg consumption will significantly lower emissions of methane and nitrous oxide, which is absolutely true, since methane has 23X the effect of CO2 on warming and nitrous oxide, while only 9% of total greenhouse gas emissions, has 300X more global warming potential than carbon dioxide.

    Any physicist or botanist knows their logic is flawed.  If methane is the big problem it is plants causing it more than cows that fart(edit - sorry, ruminants, I had a rant about farting termites and started making cows and sheep fart, but their methane is belching) too much.   If we cut down the Amazon rainforest, for example, methane production would practically disappear but anyone with common sense would object to such a data snapshot in a complex ecosystem, much like I object to poor people being forced to become vegetarians.  

    And that is what they are doing - actual emissions from the meat industry are impossible to measure so they instead want to try and make social engineering look scientific; 'changing' food habits, which again means people with less money, are where they want to focus.    Despite a complete inability to measure greenhouse gas emissions from the meat industry, which they concede, the researchers cite as fact that if beef is replaced with beans  the reduction is 99 percent.

    "A tax on the emissions from food production would normally be preferable. But as this is virtually impossible in practice, and the effects of switching away from meat and milk are so great, we show that it can be far more effective to apply the tax directly to the meat and milk consumption," says Stefan Wirsenius, co-author of the paper and a researcher in the Department of Energy and Environment at
    Chalmers University of Technology.

    Beef would be taxed higher under their proposal while chicken and pork would be taxed lower as their emissions are lower.  Non-flesh farming would be taxed nothing.


    The fact remains that more taxes are a regressive solution to a problem better solved by science.   Given the chronic fixation on mitigation and rationing that advocates of this approach have, we must conclude that there would be no society at all if they ran things in the ancient world; in the ancient world, when hunting got sparse, economists would have argued for taxes on hunting.   Ancient scientists invented agriculture and learned how to domesticate livestock instead.

    Engineering cows that burp less, and better energy sources, is the solution to greenhouse gases, not making poor people tread water by having their taxes for a decent dinner go up as their income does.

    Citation: Stefan Wirsenius, Fredrik Hedenus, Kristina Mohlin, 'Greenhouse gas taxes on animal food products: Rationale, tax scheme and climate mitigation effects', Climatic Change

    Comments

    Given Pimentel's work on the fossil fuel inputs to meat product (this would be regular CO2, not CH4 or N2O), it seems like we have a well-researched lower bound for the greenhouse emissions, as we currently produce beef.

    There's about 25kCal of FF inputs for every 1kCal in 85% lean meat (this is working from Pimentel, Food, Energy, and Society, 3rd ed -- 40:1 for beef protein, accounting for fat calories, per the USDA nutritional info), 975 kCal/lb, gives 24375 kCal input energy. Gasoline's got a variable energy content, but 30,000 kCal is the round number that seems to be conventional. So really, closer to 4/5 of a gallon of gasoline, instead of an entire gallon. In this case, truthy = .8 truth.

    Note, also, that there is no conflict between a tax on CO2-equivalent emissions, and improvements in how animals' waste is processed, etc -- that reduces the emissions, therefore the tax on that meat would be lower (we would need a CO2-VAT, since some of the emissions come from the cows, some comes from the production of the fertilizer to grow the grain, some comes from the fertilizer in the field).

    "Diet, Energy, and Global Warming" by Eshel and Martin estimates (p. 13, fig 3) a 1.485 ton/capita CO2-equivalent savings moving from an average American diet to a vegetarian diet (.7 ton moving from average to poultry-only). So someone has at least attempted to systematically estimate the size of these emissions, and you can check their references.

    A little eyeballing of their charts allows an estimate of the size of the tax; given that 1 gallon of gasoline represents about .01 ton emissions, the CO2 (not CH4+N2O) tax on a bound of 85% lean would be about 60 EU x .008, or half a Euro. Their estimate of CH4+N2O+CO2, as green house gasses, is somewhat more than double the CO2 estimate (compare Fig 2 and Fig 3, keep an eye on the red meat line at 50% of caloric input), so somewhat more than a Euro per pound.

    And in general, the poorest people, are the most likely to respond to price signals. Since this is a new tax, one possibility would to use its revenue to offset some other regressive tax. Thus, there would be no rationing component to this (I saw "tax", not "rationing", anyhow), merely a possible shift in consumption patterns -- which is the goal, right?

    And I am curious, in the ancient world, do we know that hunting got sparse, and if so, did this precede the rise of agriculture?

    Hank
    Hi there.  Yes, two previous articles tackled the math and, when you get to the core, they turn out to be aggressive estimates which then get expanded on without anyone checking on the core presumption.  It is the flaw any time someone has a cultural topology and then maps data to it.

    On anthropology, like any cultural field such as economics, it is hard to know for sure, though no agricultural tools have been found that predate hunting ones so it is a qualified yes that hunting, and therefore a lot of it, preceded agriculture.   Did that motivate agriculture?   In a culture that prizes eating, and therefore hunting, having someone suddenly buck convention and create agriculture and prove everyone wrong sounds like a fine Disney movie but unlikely in real life. Necessity has always been the mother of invention.  You see it was an analogy, right?  There were no economists in 50,000 B.C.

    The good news is, doing something about emissions has become necessity.  It will disappoint vegetarian zealots but it won't have to involve rationing meat - engineering cows that fart less will happen before long.
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    But lacking an incentive, who is going to do the engineering, and why would a farmer pay extra for a modified cow (or for modified cow feed)? The tax provides the incentive, assuming it is defined properly (e.g. the hypothetical CO2(eq) VAT, versus a tax-all-beef-equally tax).

    Hank
    The idea that the only incentives come from largess of government and therefore taxes is not valid.
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    There are other incentives, sure, but the incentives that seem to work most effectively on industry are the financial ones (consider SO2 trading, for example). Publicly-held companies pursue profits for their shareholders -- if there is no financial penalty (tax or civil penalty) for emitting GHGs, and you can save money with cheaper cows, we should expect that this will happen. Unless almost all consumers are willing to pay a premium for milk and beef from fartless cows (raised on corn grown with wind-power-generated fertilizer), profit-oriented farmers will continue to save money and emit GHGs. There's some examples of products like this (green electricity, organic milk, cage-free eggs), they find buyers, but not lots of buyers.

    What non-financial incentive do you think is going to make this happen?

    Oh yeah, there's some bizarro math error in my lb=gallon estimate, I think I must have read off Joules instead of kCal from the USDA table. Sigh.

    Hank
    I think you are conflating negative reinforcement with incentive.   Like in children, the threat of punishment, or even punishment in advance, works for some - and that is what taxes are, punishment in advance - but they don't lead to better solutions, they force companies to lobby against them and waste time and money.

    We have doubled the people on the planet since I was born.  That is a bigger marketplace for food manufacturing.    A lot of incentive.
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    It's not punishment, it's a tax. If we believe that emitting excess GHGs is bad, then you need to attach a cost to it to make it less profitable, so corporations will do less of it. That's what the tax is. The best tax is the one that is most accurately targeted at the thing you want to reduce, based on available information. The tax you describe might not be a very good tax, but it is vaguely aimed in the right direction. And yes, corporations might lobby for against it, but you have not shown any other credible incentive for getting people (businesses, farmers, corporations) to reduce their GHG emissions. And, to the extent that people running the corporations are not crazy, and recognize that this is a classic tragedy of the commons, they will not lobby against it. Without the tax, doing the right thing is unprofitable, because you no doubt have a competitor who is willing to cut costs by emitting GHGs. Your shareholders could sue (punish) you for not pursuing profits. With the tax, doing right IS profitable, and you have no shareholder exposure.

    More people, simply means more demand for food, independent of how it is produced. If those more people can outbid the beef and ethanol producers for corn, that would cut GHGs, but that's a big "if".

    Howdy Hank.

    I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about the notion in Frances Moore Lappe's "Diet for a Small Planet" - the notion that the grains grown to feed cows, etc., could feed many many more people than the cows, etc. do. I'm not able to get more specific, as it's been years since I read the book.

    Cheers.

    Hank
    There is no question if we want to be optimal, there are ways to do it, just like we could help the environment if we banned cars but taking away choice, including the choice to eat meat and own a car, will never work.  What will instead happen is that the rich and the politically connected get meat and everyone else is dietetically ghettoized and that is not really an advancement for civilization.
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    Okay, the "gallon of gas per pound of beef" claim boggled me. I thought there were economists in the house?

    Here in New Jersey, prices of gas are pretty low compared to the rest of my country -- about US$2.97.9 yesterday. How in blazes did someone get the idea that beef would be _produced_ for sale at the prices we see globally ($2/lb-$10/lb), if every pound cost _at least_ that much to produce? Most of the cuts I see for sale are at the low end of the range; if the quoted vegetarian is right, almost all of the money in the beef market is going to fuel! Anyone see evidence of this? Massive bankruptcies by butchers, farmers, shippers, etal?

    I predict the silence will be deafening.

    Hank
    That was the flaw in the guy's math, introduced in 1990, and perpetuated since by people who want to believe it.  Obviously his agenda was vegetarianism, not global warming.   Without even a pencil and paper you saw the errors, even in taking an entire food chain, from growing the cow to processing it to shipping it.

    If his math were true, given his reasoning, each organic loaf of bread would cost a gallon of gas too.   Luckily, his math was way off.
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    >.< okay, I got it. Sorry, I tend to pounce when I see numbers not adding up -- It doesn't always occur to me that everybody else has already figured it out.

    vongehr
    but not fruit and vegetables, far bigger industrial polluters than meat and dairy
    Do you mean shipping of bananas, resources for providing out-of-season veggies and suchlike? Could you make "far bigger" plausible? How does a bowl of green (or soy) beans work out in terms of industrial pollution relative to the calorie (or protein) equivalent of murdered bovine?
    If methane is the big problem it is plants causing it more than cows that fart too much.
    Taking into account the fact that cows eat (specific, fast growing) plants, too? Do the plants that cows convert into farts produce less methane when growing than my equivalent of beans even subtracting farts? Or is your point merely that the total amount of methane from cows is swamped by the world's swamps?
    Where did the economists get this idea? Why, from physicists of course!

    http://www.physorg.com/news4998.html

    And the greenest of them all is Brian Greene. He's vegan.

    : )asielyr acres

    Halliday
    veggiedude (not verified) posted:
    Where did the economists get this idea? Why, from physicists of course!

    http://www.physorg.com/news4998.html

    And the greenest of them all is Brian Greene. He's vegan.

    : )asielyr acres
    veggiedude, were you ever able to find the original Physics World article by British physicist Alan Calverd (or Calvert, since they used both spellings in the PhysOrg article)?  I searched Physics World for both spellings of Alan's last name, and both searches came up empty.

    When I searched the 'net using the phrase "Cut global warming by becoming vegetarian", which was used as the title of the PhysOrg article, I found that in addition to articles that only pointed back to the PhysOrg article, there were a number of uses of this exact phase as practically a "war cry" by vegetarians!

    However, I have had no luck in finding the claimed writings of this British physicist Alan Calverd (or Calvert).

    (As for the claim you make about Brian Greene, I have no idea about its validity, or whether you are simply making a play on his name. :/ )
    Once again someone has brought to my attention what I call "Vegan Math". It's universally an attempt to support their personal beliefs with technically accurate, but carefully selected data.
    At the risk of subjecting myself to great ridicule, I base my assumptions on personal experience, a quality that has served me well in avoiding a great deal of "science-based" misinformation.
    As a beef producer, I have very few opportunities to meet vegans, and in fact, the only one I know is a real estate developer, this lone data point serves to reinforce my belief that there are no people in the world further away from the realities of both the natural world and food production than vegans.
    In my jaundiced and biased little mind, most "Vegan Math" fails to include two important, even over-riding variables - labor costs and risks (and I include environmental risks in this).
    Using one of our own very generic steers as an example, I can stuff this little steer into a two-acre field (this is the acreage needed to support one animal unit/year in our area) and in two years (the time it takes this animal to reach market-weight), I can process this animal. Assuming a 1000 lb. steer, a 40% yield (this is America - we don't eat icky things like tripe and brains) I get 400 lb x 700 (calories/lb) = 280,000 calories, minus 2000 calories for the 8 man-hours I assumed for processing the steer.
    Our 8 man-hours yielded 278,000 calories with a mere 2000 calories expended. No fuel costs, no fertilizer costs.
    Assessing risk is a little more difficult, but as a producer, I have quite a few options. Epizootic events are rare - (even rarer than my opportunities to use this word!) certainly more rare than crop-failures, so I'm assuming that my animal stays alive. I can process this steer in two years, or ten years. If weather conditions, political upheavals, or zombie invasions dictate, I can move this steer, and even better this steer can move himself. Or I can sell it to a neighbor.
    There are plenty of cattle who are quite feed efficient and are perfectly capable of attaining acceptable (though admitted not ideal) market weights on forage only (1000 lb. steers vs. 1200 lb steers in 24 months vs. 18 months).
    Fart-taxes are not viewed as a serious threat by producers, so they are not an incentive for producing low-fart cows. Now $13.00 beans and $6.00 corn is an incentive. Current commodity crop prices are strongly influenced by investors seeking a safe haven for their cash, not by farmers, cattle feeders or even HFCS and ethanol manufacturers. Beef producers looking to reduce their input costs (feed costs) have turned to the poor-man's non-engineered version of the low-fart cow - the feed-efficient cow.
    My family has also been involved in crop production, including food-grade soybeans. I'll first off contend that if vegans incorporated both fuel and pesticide usage for food-grade soybeans into some of their equations, they would be screaming for Monsanto-manufactured, Round-Up Ready GMO beans. And on the risk side of the equation, don't forget the cost of suicide, though it's tough to put a dollar value on that (we fortunately got out of the row-crop business before it got to that point).
    Fruit and vegetable production are easily the most chemically dependent, and most labor intensive segments of agriculture. My children would contend that it is a form of slavery. And while this may sound flippant, we did fight a war in these parts over agricultural labor. As a nation, we've outlawed slavery, but we've replaced it with an undocumented work-force, some members of which may contend that they have much in common with the agricultural work-force of 150 years ago.
    Since I've certainly exceeded my stay, and I may be totally off base here. But will at least one of these vegan economists please try to put a dollar value on Atrazine exposure?

    vongehr
    Since I've certainly exceeded my stay, and I may be totally off base here.
    You certainly did not exceed your stay - in fact I take this as the answer to my question above. Thanks for the interesting comment.
    Hank
    Sascha, I didn't forget about your question but I basically needed to rehash the two other articles.  I used a chicken instead of a cow for virtual water and did the beef analysis to debunk the 'pound of beef is a gallon of gas' foolishness.

    On methane, I was writing with my knowledge of previous articles and so did not flesh this one out enough.  I wasn't contending plants were aerobically creating methane (a rather controversial idea that hasn't gotten much traction),  rather that the Amazon has a lot of dead plants that do create it anaerobically so cutting down the Amazon would mean less methane.   A ridiculous idea, of course, but so is imposing taxes on end consumers of an industry where no one knows what greenhouse gases they are being taxed on.
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    Even though I am a vegeterian, I have to admit that ruminants make a small contribution to methane relative to the collective output by rice paddies, wetlands and coal and gas production.
    Besides, taxes won't dissuade carnivores. In Quebec gasoline is taxed to death and the number of automobiles keeps increasing as public transit use continues to suffer. Ditto for alcohol and cigarettes.

    Hank
    In the US. progressives are the most likely to want more taxes yet they don't realize these sorts of taxes are the most regressive kind.    A millionaire can pay a dollar more for a gallon of gas or a dollar more for a pound of beef without suffering but the financial impact on poor people is tremendous, just like the high sales taxes, state taxes and gasoline taxes we have in California hurt poor people more.

    Then supposedly the government will fund that tax into subsidizing fuels or beef for poor people, which eliminates 50% of the money if we are lucky and they will use it for other purposes if we are not lucky - all while the economists concede there is no way to know how much of future or current global warming will be due to cow methane.

    Economists do little harm as long as they are not allowed to implement pet hypotheses.
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    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Hank, in your ‘Strange Climate Math - Driving is better for Pollution than Walking’  blog  you said that ‘a cow produces enough methane in one year to fill a hot air balloon’.

    What I would like to know is how much methane does a vegan eating just beans, fruit and vegetables produce in a year, because in my experience of working with a few male vegans in the past, the quantities of methane produced might be comparable to a cow, which would surely also negate the need for this tax on meat wouldn’t it?
    Make love not war
    Hank
    Stupid ACLU probably won't let us hook vegetarian anuses up to methane-capturing devices for a week, I bet.  :)
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    So much nonsense. So little time.

    Don't worry, nobody is going to tax beef and the only meat left hanging will be the bs'ers.

    That’s because economists are all stupid, right?

    If your goal is to discuss important economic issues, I suggest you mention the fact that the richest 1% of all Americans are paying little to no tax at all.

    Most of us can’t afford the luxury of hiring a team of top tier accountants to create such miracles, so the working poor and middle class are at a distinct disadvantage.

    Economic experts believe that as much as half the world's capital flows through offshore centers, including 31% of the net profits of United States multinationals.

    According to Merrill Lynch and Gemini Consulting's “World Wealth Report” for 2000, one third of the wealth of the world's “high net-worth individuals”—nearly $6 trillion out of $17.5 trillion—may now be held offshore. Some $3 trillion is in deposits in tax haven banks and the rest is in securities held by international business companies (IBCs) and trusts.

    That said, you will not find a well respected economist anywhere who thinks that Bush’s tax cuts for the rich will stimulate the economy even a smidgen, let alone drive an economic recovery.

    Hank
    Thanks for using my article to riff on your pet theories about how much Bush sucked - but he has been gone for two years, it's time to let go.    None of your comment has anything at all to do with my article and you instead quote mine some facts that fit your notion of how rich people should give their money to you.  
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    MikeCrow
    Hank, Your post was more appropriate than mine, So I deleted the contents.
    Never is a long time.
    Hank
    I didn't see yours yet but generally the more perspectives we have on topics the better.   I always new learn something new when multiple people tackle the same topic.
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    MikeCrow
    I was replying to Harry's off topic reply, and it too was off topic.
    Never is a long time.
    Cows and other ruminants don't fart. They burp. Not many biologists or vets taking part in this conversation, apparently...

    Sorry about just making a pedantic aside, without commenting the main subject. It would've taken so much energy to read everything carefully, thinking it through, forming an opinion and formulating a comment. Petty remarks are so much easier.

    Hank
    Methane is still a by-product of rumen digestion but belching is not as interesting as farting.   I got mixed up in editing because I was using termites and farts, since they produce more methane per body size than anything on the planet, but the economists were warbling about beef and I got off track.   Petty remarks that are accurate are the best kind.
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    My opinion abiut this kind of social engineering is far away from being positive.I come from Europe, form one of ex-communist country that tax everything in the name of our ´´well-being´´, social welfare state and this kind of ideas that in facy results to be conntraproductive. The more taxes we have, the poorer we are comparing to old EU countries. In fact, they count that average family from my country spends 80% of salary on food: the prices are hight due to natural disaster, stock marekt speculation, tax wich is 23%. Nevertheless, the cheapest way to feed the average 4 people family in the freezing climate country where most of fruits and vegetables must be imported ( the price is high and quality low) is to serve different dishes composed on the base of meat.Ask any housewife who having very small budget is trying to make most of it, how ´´cheap´´ is to feed with only vegies. I don´t believe in social enginereeing, soviet leaders rpoved how succesful it is. As the average citizen I like my freedom to purchase what I believe is good and cost effective for me. If rich want to be vegan and have money to do so-let them so but I do not agree for ´´green terrorism´´ based on few manipulated quasi cientific data...anyway, observing cientific world today with the pressure to publish and give the voice to their theories with the pace of producing such articles, you cannot give much cientific value to it!But manipulating power, yes, it does have which will please many illiterate, far away from real problems high position vegans and few always fashionable followers...

    MikeCrow
    Emily, if you haven't noticed yet, there are many in America, and probably Europe that despise Capitalism. And all they wish for are Unions, and The Gov to knock the rich down, and spread their wealth around. But, as you know that doesn't work. And the side effect of that failure is over priced, limited variety, poor quality consumer goods. Because we are free to pursue our wants and dreams, I can go to the grocery store in the middle of winter, and find fairly priced fruits and vegetables, 3 or 4 different suppliers of the various meats, fresh seafood and 4 or 5 brands of toilet paper. When the government tries to shape consumers with taxes and tariffs, there are always unintended negative consequences. Taxing beef because of CO2 emissions is stupid.
    Never is a long time.
    It would indeed be stupid to tax beef because of CO2 emissions, because ruminants are associated with methane emissions.

    Halliday
    Unfortunately, both the forces here, as well as the principle forces behind "Anthropogenic Global Warming" (AGW), are about "social engineering", more than about anything else.  In this case, as in so many others, they simply use whatever "club" they can lay their hands upon.
    While the science in this case may be debateable, I want to stand up for the idea of pigovian taxes, or those which target activites with negative externalities. This includes things like taxing pollution, (since the effects of the pollution fall on society, rather than the polluters) alcohol, (since higher alcohol consumption is linked to higher rates of accidents, medical bills, etc) and others.

    Taxes don't exist in a vacuum, and there is a huge difference between instituting a new tax (and raising the overall tax level) vs shifting the incidence of taxes (raising some taxes and lowering others). Most of Hanks objections focus on the first scenario, and don't address the 2nd. The question should be, is it better to tax X or Y.

    Specifically, most forms of pigovian taxes are proposed as ways to potentially reduce income taxes. Because you generally get less of whatever you tax, most economists agree that income taxes are not very efficient and create disincentives to work. So would raising taxes on meat and lowering taxes on income make sense? Quite possibly.

    Hank
    It's just progressive social militancy, though.  The same thing the left accuses of the right.  They want to make more services publicly financed and then declare they can tell people how to act because they are publicly financed and tax them more if they choose to act in ways the elites don't like.  The obvious solution instead is no public financing and then fewer people telling others how to act. Want to be a stinking drunk or eat 5,000 calories a day?  Fine, society does not have to pay your medical bills. If you are a drunk driver and hit someone, you get sued and go to jail.
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    Well, a truly Pigovian tax is worth it no matter what the money is spent on - i.e. you could just set the money on fire and society overall would still be better off. Alcohol is a good example, because it is fairly cheap to produce -> low cost for individual consumers, and yet has high externalities for the rest of society. Even if there wasn't public provision of health care, most people would say that reducing the number of deaths from alcohol related accidents is a worthwhile goal. This study, which looked at the effect of a fairly large increase in the federal alcohol tax in 1991 estimates that it saved about 7000 lives a year. When you take into account that the money can then actually be spent on theoretically useful things, it seems like a no brainer. Just because the market sets a price for something doesn't mean that that is the socially optimal price.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/01/09/taxes-on-alcohol-save-lives/

    Hank
    But why set the line at alcohol?  Lowering the speed limit to 5 miles per hour would save 100X as many lives as banning alcohol completely yet lowering the speed limit from 65 MPH to 55 MPH was a total failure even though it had a substantial tax placed on people who were caught. It made people into casual criminals.

    The line is arbitrary.  Some right wing people want to ban abortion and left wing people have banned the sale of gold fish.  In every instance they cite both monetary and cultural gains.  If you found one you wanted to agree with, you found it because you agreed.  It is unlikely you opened the Wall Street Journal blog convinced alcohol should be tax free and were suddenly convinced it should be taxed heavily, right?
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    The speed limit is actually a good example. While lowering the speed limit to 5mph would save lives, the tremendous disutility it would create by inconveniencing everyone is clearly not worth it. Likewise a $100 tax on alcohol is clearly not worth it. The trick is finding margins where you can increase total social utility by raising prices. Now granted the calculations can get arbitrary since you have to try and calculate the value of a life, but surely you can see that if a supply shock lowered the price of alcohol to 10 cents that society as a whole would be worse off. More deaths, more violent crime, etc.

    As to the 2nd part of your comment, these types of taxes only make sense when the cost to an individual is out of whack with the cost to society. So if someone could convince me that any good met those criteria I would support it. Personally I like alcohol, but realize that paying a higher price would be beneficial overall.

    Hank
    The trick is finding margins where you can increase total social utility by raising prices.
    This sentence tells non-socially constrictive people - liberals, libertarians - that you can't be part of policy. You want to use government to penalize conduct of individuals, not conduct that is actually destructive to society.  We have any number of laws already to curb the societal detriment to alcohol so adding more taxes is not the answer.  

    Adding punitive consumption taxes to alcohol is as destructive to poor people as it is crazy taxes on meat; a world where only the rich can afford a glass of wine or a steak is a progressive goal but not a conservative or a liberal one.  We need less micromanaging of behavior by a centralized government, not more. 
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    MikeCrow
    Beside, draconian taxes just fuels a black market, which is the exact opposite of what we need.
    Never is a long time.
    Hank
    I don't know. That "Smokey and the Bandit" movie was pretty good, so we could use more of those.
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    Gerhard Adam
    Taxation should simply be used as a vehicle for a government to collect revenue.  Nothing more, nothing less.  It is not an implement for social engineering, nor are laws for that matter.

    After all, from a governmental perspective, it would be idiotic to tie your revenue to behavior that you're seeking to eliminate.

    Social engineering can only occur through education or cultural influences that result in people changing their minds.  This is clearly evidenced by the attitude towards drinking and driving as its evolved over the past few decades.  Twenty years ago, someone might have made a comment about how they wondered how they managed to get home after drinking half the night.  Today such a statement would bring criticism.  This was achieved by changing attitudes and education; not laws nor taxes.