Banner
    Thomas H. Ray: care about Vongehr's idea of science
    By Sascha Vongehr | September 9th 2012 06:14 AM | 4 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Sascha

    Dr. Sascha Vongehr [风洒沙] studied phil/math/chem/phys in Germany, obtained a BSc in theoretical physics (electro-mag) & MSc (stringtheory)...

    View Sascha's Profile

    Instead of getting any public support, increasingly the mob starts to get out their pitchforks. Now I came across this gem over at the FQXi site – it is down on the comment thread, but it is written by the author of the article there, a technical writer and editor by trade (consistent with the terrible state of science writing for sure), Thomas Howard Ray:


    As predicted, the posts from Sascha Vongehr's site have disppeared. What has not disappeared, is the reason why one should care about whether Vongehr's idea of science is rational -- and whether it is important that the scientific enterprise should continue to be based on rationalism.

    Vongehr advocates a postmodern social constructivist view. I would bet that most scientists are not even aware of what that is, for mainstream science has for 300 years followed the "fingo non hypotheses" philosophy of Newton-- that is, an objective model is not interpreted into existence by the language of the observer, nor is it dependent on such language for objective validity. As my collaborator Pat Frank and I wrote for an article in "Free Inquiry" in 2004, " ... the meaning of empirical data is found only within the context of a falsifiable theory. This is true, even if the meaning is that the data contradict the prediction and refute the theory. Only a falsifiable physical theory distinguishes the meaning of lightning away fromthe hand of god. Only the capacity of falsification produces a unique prediction and provides an unambiguous meaning to the data."

    Vongehr's strawman argument -- in which he asserts with absolutely no support that most scientists are naive realists -- would have us believe that there is no unambiguous meaning. That the message is in the eye of the beholder and truth is constructed by consensus. In trying to fit his philosophy to the scientific enterprise, he has managed to profoundly misinterpret the same John Wheeler who said, "No phenomenon is a physical phenomenon until it is an observed phenomenon,"* into saying that Wheeler's utterly simple idea is to assume the quantum and accept nonlocality as physical law. Wrong -- Wheeler assumed nothing -- the comparison of Wheeler's idea to Einstein's elevator gedanken experiment requires an actual physical analogue. Vongehr's proposal does not only fail to meet that standard, it bypasses and subverts the rationalist enterprise entirely.

    What would Randi do? Assuredly, not this.

    Tom


    There are other such comments and even the main article cites Science2.0 and distorts the Quantum Randi Challenge. But this one I like especially, because next to telling the world that “one should care about whether Vongehr's idea of science is rational” (thank you Tom, you go boy), he calls me a “postmodern social constructivist” (did he talk to Hank?).


    It pretty much confirms what I claim: quantum physics is partially rejected (Tom is one of those silly Joy Christian fanboys who outright reject it) because of such silly fears as that relativism in physics triggers cultural relativism – teach Everett relativity and people stop working; society decays into a drug addicted homosexual orgy-heap or something. We had this before of course, with Einstein’s relativity, and you know the result: Nothing! Because nobody cares about science anyway, especially if it is not telling them what they want to believe. The determinism of totality not only laughs about your "responsible agent" illusions but also determines that you keep them anyway.


    Perhaps I do somewhat advocate a social constructivist view, but Tom actually claims that I do so in my essay! Well, there is no social component to the ultimate limits of descriptions, or if there is, I have not invoked it. It is fine if Tom is not intelligent enough to understand that physics is a fundamental description and thus limited by what can be described (e.g.: by a description that describes totality and therefore itself). That is in fact my (partially Wittgenstein’s) postmodern update of the hallmark of (non-post) modern physics, namely observers being limited by the constraints of observation. Kant already said something very similar. So I say that describers are limited by the constraints of description. Where do we mention “social consensus”?


    Tom adds such strawmen as:

    “an objective model is not interpreted into existence by the language of the observer, nor is it dependent on such language for objective validity.”

    Nor did I ever claim such nonsense!

    ”Vongehr's strawman argument -- in which he asserts with absolutely no support that most scientists are naive realists”
    Never claimed that either. A double strawman! I wrote that there is a tacit direct realism for example in the concept of “actualization” and that many scientists do not properly distinguish different realisms, which two persons who even published on the nonlocality-versus-realism issue admitted to me actually committing themselves! Tom perhaps projects his own silly arrogance claiming that most scientists do not know social constructivism.

    Tom tells people I claim that

    “Wheeler's utterly simple idea is to assume the quantum … ”

    Wow! Given the smallness of the paragraph about what my suggestion for Wheeler’s idea is, this would be the reading comprehension of a ten year old (remember, he is writer and editor by trade for crying out loud!). Moreover, it is the “simple idea that demands the quantum”. How could it possibly just assume the quantum?

    “… and accept nonlocality as physical law.”

    I explicitly defined “apparent non-locality” and described it as emergent from something strictly Einstein-local. Here perhaps one can see most clearly that some of those who rant against my ideas are not just mistaken but outright malicious and out to smear people with idiotic lies.


    I wonder why. Does it at least make them happy? You Joys and Toms and Motls out there: Prozac is not for everyone, but it may well be for you!

    Comments

    vongehr
    Author Thomas Howard Ray replied on Sep. 9, 2012 @ 15:02 GMT
    What has always stuck in my craw is the moral implication of what he and Campbell are about. Disguising a gossip blog in the clothes of science is hardly the noble undertaking that it is advertised to be.
    Gerhard Adam
    Moral implications?  Is this guy always this much of an asshole?
    Sascha

    I read you because I find you interesting and I want to understand what you have to say.

    So I don't care whether in this case or that you've misinterpreted Wheeler or not. Rather what I care about is how you interpret Wheeler's idea or any other idea; and does that interpretation help me better understand science, physics, philosophy or not. I have my own point of view for sure; but we all have limitations and bottlenecks that we need help around. So if you help me get around a bottleneck to understanding; then I read you again.

    And I am following links e.g. to your arXiv articles and trying to read and learn from those that interest me.

    But I have a question today. Related to topics of your interest (and mine). And I want your opinion. I don't want to argue, I want to understand your view.

    Sheldon Goldstein wrote a short article Quantum Philosophy (the flight from reason in science) pg 119 -125 from book The Flight from Science and Reason edit by Gross, Levitt, Lewis.

    Net: Goldstien says that "a quarter of a century after the dicovery of Bohmian mechanics, statements like

    "In my opinion, the most convincing argument against the theory of hidden variable was presented by J, S. Bell (1964)" Wigner

    and

    "This (hidden variable) is an interesting idea and even though few of us were ready to accept it, it must be admitted that the trully telling argument against it was produced as late as 1965 by J.S. Bell... this appears to give a convincing argument aginst hidden variables theory." Wigner

    Gold stein then goes on, "There was.. one physicist who wrote on this subject with even greater clarity and insight than Wigner himself, namely, the very J. S. Bell whom Wigner praises... So let us see how Bell himself reacted to Bohm's discovery."Bohm showed explicitly how parameters could be introduced into nonrelativistic wave mechanics, with the help of which the indeterministic description could be transformed into a deterministic one." J.S. Bell 1982. and " the elimination of indeterminism was very striking. But more important, it seemed to me, was the elimination of any need for a division of the world into "system" on the one hand, and "apparatus" or "observer" on the other. I have always felt since that people who have not grasped the ideas of those papers... and unfortunately they remain the majority... are handicapped in any discussion of the meaning of quantum mechanics." J. S. Bell 1976 and "Why si the pilot wave picture ignored in text books? Should it not be taught, not as the only way, but as an antidote to the prevailing complacency? to show us that vagueness, subjectivity, and indeterminism, are not forced on us by exoerimental facts, but by deliberate theoretical choice?" J. S. Bell 1982

    So my question to you Sascha.

    What is your opinion of the Bohmian interpretation of quantum mechanics, bearing in mind and commenting on Sheldon Goldstein's view that "over the course of the past several decades... Bell was the prime proponent... of the very theory, Bohmian mechanics, that he is supposed to have demolished."

    That's my question. I wish to understand your thoughts upon this. Can you help me put this in perspective? Thank you.

    vongehr
    Two ways to answer this.

    Physicist: We want to explain time and randomness via models. If the time is in the model ("parametrised model"), there should be no further external* time (say one that would allow the first time to flow, "flow of time" being a regress error). A many world model has randomness already in the model, namely via a branching structure for example. With suggestions such as Bohm's, we go back to external (god supplied) randomness, to regress errors such as "genuine stochasticity", a sort of "fair randomness" ("random randomness").

    Philosopher: Descriptions such as Bohm's try to preserve a historically (rather than logically) preceeding stage, namely classical determinism. I start out from tautologies and arrive as straight forwardly as possible at the most natural description. A tautological 'proto-indeterminism' exists from the start, namely the equivalence of alternatives relative to the most fundamental description. It stays when introducing emergent time. I should not need to defend it against classical determinism, since such does simply not appear in a consistent description. Those who desire classical determinism need to give a good motivation for it and then think very very hard how to derive it (impossible, because it is merely approximate in already decohered and thus seemingly classical systems).

    ---------------
    * With the exception of space-in-space models, like say a string theory 'universe on a membrane' or Einstein-ether, where we would have one (or more) emergent times before hitting the fundamental time, but even then, there is still only one fundamental time that must be inside (not external) to the fundamental description (theory of everything).