Science Left Behind: France Bans GMOs Again
    By Hank Campbell | September 16th 2012 10:17 AM | 16 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    Despite all science showing it is unjustified and a French court overturning a moratorium that had no legal or scientific basis, the Prime Minister of France, Jean-Marc Ayrault, has declared that France will continue to ban any genetically modified food despite objections from its own scientists and those across the EU and the world.

    The French know their own courts, of course.  When one ban gets overturned they just introduce a new 'temporary' one and attempts to overturn it will take years to make its way through the system.  France is Europe's biggest agriculture producer and, percentage-wise, the biggest subsidizer of food in the entire world.  A French cow gets twice as much money per year from its government than farmers in sub-Saharan Africa make under capitalism.  By allowing GM foods, farmers in regions which lack France's climate, and therefore benefit from the increased fairness science provides, are blocked from competing in the French marketplace, which keeps the French government from having to spend even more money in subsidies.

    Anti-science mentalities are never about science, they are often about the scientization of politics or, in this case, scientization of economics. The French are all for economic fairness, as long as it is only fair for people in France. Science, as often happens in Europe, gets left behind.

    The EU has rattled its blade-less saber and claimed they might 'force' France to stop banning science, but no one listens to the EU unless the EU is cutting a check and even then only until it clears. France writes more checks than it gets so they can ignore EU concerns.

    France is also banning crop dusting unless there is 'no viable alternative'.  Who do you think will get that 'no viable alternative' designation?  Small farmers or giant agriculture companies who are big donors to politicians?  The problem with subjective legal loopholes is that they are rigged to penalize the small farmer without the wealth to hire lobbyists.  GMOS make the playing field more egalitarian for everyone, ironically something socialist France is against.

    Famous for its wine, France is being a little bit hypocritical claiming its way is better for the environment.  As shown in Science Left Behind, grapes for organic wine requires 80X the chemical additives of traditional wine production and that is hardly a win for Gaia.

    France also wants to reduce nuclear power from its current 75% ratio. If you are old enough to recall, during the Kyoto negotiations of the 1990s, France criticized the anti-science stance of the left in the US for denying the science of nuclear power and declared they could easily eliminate CO2 emissions their way.  

    Now the anti-science tables have truly turned.

    Comments

    Gerhard Adam
    While I get your point, I'm not sure why you would want to frame this as "anti-science" versus "science".  That clearly has nothing to do with anything beyond being the political rationalization for the economic decisions they wish to make.

    It would be no different than looking at our politicians to somehow be "scientific" leaders.  They are politicians and "science" is simply another tool in their toolbox from which to rationalize policy decisions that they support.

    However, I do agree with your larger point that people are being foolish when they attribute scientific saavy to any political party or affiliation.
    Hank
    It's the scientization of politics, as I said.  Framing cultural beliefs inside a cocoon of science rationale is anti-science, unless we have been sold a fake bill of goods about global warming, evolution teaching and stem cell research all these years.
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    Gerhard Adam
    Framing cultural beliefs inside a cocoon of science rationale is anti-science...
    Just curious, but how do you frame the arguments that are "scientific" that are also being used to simply support cultural beliefs?  Examples might be in the area of eugenics, or even transhumanism. 

    In other words, there are legitimate scientific arguments that could be made against GM foods [without the hysteria], but isn't their advocacy based on the cultural belief of supporting a growing human population?  Perhaps that's too close, but imagine something like the transhumanist movement.  Could we envision some time when people may be able to get chips implanted to enhance their intelligence?  Aren't there an equal number of legitimate arguments both pro and con?  Their implementation and/or acceptance would be based almost exclusively on our cultural beliefs.  Is there some underlying cultural assumption being made that guides the "purpose" to which science is being applied?

    I realize that these are probably more philosophically oriented arguments, but they also frame the basis on which we determine that something is "scientific" or not. 

    Note that I'm trying to separate out the idea of those that just get the science wrong.
    Hank
    They can never be wrong, that is the nature of disproving a negative.  I can't prove aliens are not secretly controlling the world economy and I can't prove genetically modified foods can't harm anyone.

    I don't frame scientific arguments that support cultural beliefs any differently than I frame anti-scientific ones.  Eugenics gets ridiculed in the book and transhumanism has been chided here. At least transhumanists have a positive goal where eugenicists were clearly a negative force (along with every other progressive of that period).
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    Gerhard Adam
    ...I can't prove genetically modified foods can't harm anyone...
    I don't think you have to make that argument to be opposed to GM foods.  Just as with the politicians, that is the rationalization that people may have, but I may simply be opposed to it on the basis of saying that there is no purpose to it.  It provides a facility which simply pushes our population on an even more perilous position in terms of a sustainable future, so there's no benefit in trying to feed the world's hungry.  Instead we should be focusing on reducing population [or at least containing it] and on correcting the political/social difficulties that prevent food from getting to where it is needed.

    In other words, my "scientific" focus is on a sustainable human population and I would view that as the problem to be solved.  Therefore denial of population problems would be "unscientific" from my point of view.

    I want to be clear, that those are NOT my specific arguments, but are merely being used as an example of where one doesn't have to be anti-scientific to be opposed to GM foods. 

    Even the assessment that the transhumanists have a positive goal is a cultural belief, since my personal view is that their goal is disastrous and ultimately destructive to the human species.
    Gerhard Adam
    Perhaps a better example is the controversy around the "right to die".  In this case, there are certainly scientific arguments about how one might prolong life [based on the cultural view that life must be extended or supported no matter what].  Equally there are scientific arguments that suggest that our abilities don't promote the quality of life that we should expect from such interventions.

    Therefore the controversy occurs when we have strange definitions of what it means to "be alive" and the right one has to terminate it.
    MikeCrow
    unless we have been sold a fake bill of goods about global warming

    he he, You have, well at least the part that it's all because of CO2, that the current warming has never happened before, that GCM's accurately model climate(which BTW, I'm really surprised you don't mock this claim), that climate is a delicately balanced chaotic system subject to runaway warming with a minor change of a minor GHG. 

    I'm sure I could think of other things if I worked on it for a while.
    Never is a long time.
    Hello,

    As a French, there are a few things that I would like to correct on what you say

    First, Jean-Marc Ayrault did not ban "any genetically modified food", but the cultivation of genetically modified crops".
    So you don't have to worry about the farmers from sub-Saharian Africa. =)

    You are very right to point out that GMO cultures use less chemical additives. However it has been proved that GMO crops are bad for biodiversity.

    About crop dusting: I have never ever seen it in France, so this announcement is more for the show than anything else.

    Hank
    I appreciate the clarification on crop dusting. On your second point, if you are saying an African farmer can sell a genetically modified food in France, that is not really possible.  Instead, the French are eating genetically-modified foods if they eat those expensive cows, since most of the feed is made from GM products.  Fortunately (assuming they know about it) the French are more pro-science than Californians, who want to put warning labels on anything that might have even a trace of GM product (twice as strict as Europe!), including a cow that may have eaten it. Unless the steer has an organic sticker on it, which makes no sense at all.

    An EU study showed there was no environmental benefit to organic food and I have not seen one that said GM foods were bad for biodiversity; they are required to only be used in limited fashion to prevent herd immunity in insects and damage biodiversity.  Like with DDT 50 years ago, it may be that the product is safe but people are using it in foolish ways.

    A ban on growing GM food in a country that is protectionist about food is a ban on GMs, that is why they now phrase it the way they do.  They had to, because the MON 810 product had been in use since 1998 and the EU law of 2004 prohibited one country from banning a product the EU did not.

    What a country could do, without being anti-science, is require some evidence that a seed created in the US, for example, will work the same in European countries.  We are talking about genetic customization here, so a requirement that the product actually be tailored to the area would be legitimate - plus, farmers are not going to spend money on something until they know it works. If the French are so entrenched against it, the product should fail so the same result would be achieved without a government ban and defying the EU and the worldwide science community.

    Thanks for the insight.
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    I say Vive La France! and more power to them! Wish I could live there, in a world that is increasingly going to the dogs , France is exhibiting "survivor behavior". We should all ban gmo, fracking ,nuclear power and thus the disasters that ensue and other nonsense that is making our planet uninhabitable. (war). Think about it folks. WHAT IF we just all try this for say, 10 years or so, hell , I will take 5. Our world may be a better place. Imagine. One thing France really needs to get rid of is its nuclear program, then is will be parfait! As for the organic grapes needing 80 times the chems that is connerie organic farming does not use chems or pesticides, my grandfather has a grape vineyard and they do biodynamic farming, no chems, no merde, well, maybe some , but to be sure it is 100 REAL merde from a cow!

    Hank
    Great for your grandfather, but were the entire world to adapt the technique of rich vineyard people that chemical runoff would really add up. It's nice that you think 80X as much of 'natural' chemicals is better than 1X of synthetic but that typifies why scientists make fun of France.  The French are both anti-science and can't do simple math.

    You never even heard of fracking before a year ago, it has been around since the 1940s, and now you want to ban it?  If natural fertilizers are great why do you hate natural gas?  
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    Hank
    And, despite no evidence showing it is true (the scanners emit a ridiculously lower amount of x-rays than passengers get by being 30,000 feet in the air on a plane) Europe is going to scrap plans to use x-ray scanners.

    They won't declare them unsafe, they will simply not approve them despite scientists declaring them safe. 

    Tough choice here; I think those scanners are irritating and offensive so I am not sure if I side with anti-science Europeans or against annoying scanners this time.

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    If you actually took the time to read the study, which so many have not done. This is the ONLY peer reviewed LONG TERM study ever done on genetically modified Monsanto corn...EVER! That should be enough to question the biotech industries own studies. they have convinced regulators (who do not do their own testing) that 90 days is plenty for testing. 90 days! What is so ironic is that the French study began finding problems with the same rats Monasanto used in their study shortly after 90 days, and after 2 years documented some horrifice discoveries, none of them posative. Profit is a huge motive for any corporation and clearly the profits generated by Biotech are massive. So protecting their pot of gold is to be expected and shamefully so. Always question the science from the ones who have the most to gain but keep an open mind to the ones who have nothing gain at all.

    Hank
    This is the ONLY peer reviewed LONG TERM study ever done on genetically modified Monsanto corn...EVER!
    There is a reason for that. It isn't relevant.  The "horrifice" discoveries were the identical rates of rat tumors that those rats had after 2 years under any circumstances.  If you read the study, as you claimed, you would see that GMOs seemed to result in less cancer for male rats after 2 years than they would have had ordinarily.  Other countries wouldn't even have allowed that study for that long because it is against their humane treatment of research animals policy.  That's right, the French were considered inhumane for this, even to people who breed rats for research

    The only reason the result seems bad to people who live in some bubble and have looked at one study in their lives is the shocking negligence in the control group, which came up with a statistically bonkers result.  

    Seriously, stop with the black helicopters outside your house controlled by Monsanto conspiracy stuff.  You can buy Monsanto seed for a few hundred dollars, just like any researcher in the world can, and test it without restriction. Go for it.
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    Now that is a bizarre argument. A 2 year study would be deemed inhumane, as opposed to potentially feeding poison to the world populous, how ridiculous. In light of these latest findings, wouldn't it be prudent to say re-evaluate and do some long term studies and put the question to rest? Why not put all this out on the table, do a long term independent study, maybe several before allsomething is wrong. If you and the pro GM lobby are confident with the safety of these products then that should not an issue, no at all...
    Any argument to the contrary is a warning sign to us all.owing this stuff as food. Prove to the world that this science is safe, to deny that is an admission that

    Hank
    Look, you have to learn that rats and dogs and people do not all have the same lifespan. Without some entry-level knowledge of animals you can't really grasp biology. I know the 21st century is all scary and dangerous and your cell phone is giving you brain cancer and GMOs are giving you...cancer again...and you'd rather be farming and driving a horse and buggy in the 1800s, but it isn't going to happen.

    It is a line of rats almost guaranteed to get cancer after 2 years and animals have rights - apparently in every country but France - and so other countries would not have allowed that study of those rats for that length of time because it was going to mean a whole lot of rats with cancer for no reason, everyone already knew it.  The fact that you insist GMOs hurt the world more than irrational French scientists on a nihilistic bender against rats and food says a lot about you and nothing at all about biology.
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