Thomas Friedman wishes America was more like communist dictatorships
    By Hank Campbell | September 19th 2010 02:38 PM | 15 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    Poor Thomas Friedman.  The NY Times columnist and Pulitzer Prize winner, who only knows the science that is framed for him through progressive politics and kooky economics, thinks the Chinese are onto something with climate change.  He fawns over:
    “There is really no debate about climate change in China,” said Peggy Liu, chairwoman of the Joint U.S.-China Collaboration on Clean Energy, a nonprofit group working to accelerate the greening of China. “China’s leaders are mostly engineers and scientists, so they don’t waste time questioning scientific data.” 
    And this is the way for him to segue into how subsidizing and mandating green energy magically means JOBS.   Well, it does in a communist dictatorship, but they could also say believing in Santa Claus creates jobs - they simply force people to say they believe in Santa Claus in return for money.

    Progressive policies are the enemy of democracy, of course, so it's no surprise that Friedman wants to emulate China and stick it to voting Americans who have trouble sifting through which researchers and methods are legitimate and which are just chasing funding (answer, Mr. Friedman - read this site).   Worried about pollution before the Olympics?  Ban cars - for everyone except the communist leadership, of course.   Want to build a dam?  Displace millions of peasants from their homes - they can't vote anyway.

    Friedman is no slouch at framing, either.  People die in China if there is air pollution, he insists, despite there being no accurate records (non-Chinese) of either deaths or pollution there, so they are Compassionate Communists for doing something.

    “They’re able to quickly throw spaghetti on the wall to see what clean-tech models stick," he quotes Liu.  Well, of course, they can.  It isn't like failed policies will get them voted out of office.   
    But mostly he seems to wish Americans were more intellectually docile and that anything they are told by Leaders they would simply follow.   I suppose it is fine, in his estimation, providing he is one of the Leaders.

    The trade-off in a democracy is that some people just aren't going to accept science and a great many are going to be skeptical when they feel like the researchers in a field are not trusted guides but rather advocates for policies.    I wouldn't trade that freedom for anything, but clearly Friedman would.

    Comments

    Hank
    Not surprisingly, given Friedman's keen knack for jumping on a bandwagon after it has shown to be a disaster - China resorts to blackouts in pursuit of energy efficiency: "With end of current five-year plan looming, many regions are desperately pulling the plug to meet usage targets."
    Neven
    The trade-off in a democracy is that some people just aren't going to accept science and a great many are going to be skeptical when they feel like the researchers in a field are not trusted guides but rather advocates for policies.    I wouldn't trade that freedom for anything, but clearly Friedman would.

    It all depends what your definition of freedom is. To me a majority that wishes to stick its head in the sand and rather lets nature enforce limits (with all the nasty consequences) has nothing to do whatsoever with freedom. That's just plain stupid.

    And a pseudo-democracy run behind the scenes by corporations, all for the sake of unending economic growth, has nothing to do with freedom either. Then we're talking about a culturally brainwashed population that believes it's free, nothing else.

    If all that freedom means is unlimited material well-being, then we have a very poor grasp of the true meaning of the concept. And that has its price.
    Aitch
    Thanks for this post, Neven It gives me hope that the meaning of Freedom is not completely lost I was beginning to feel a little isolated in holding that view Aitch
    Hank
    If all that freedom means is unlimited material well-being, then we have a very poor grasp of the true meaning of the concept.
    Unfortunately, if freedom did not mean precisely that we would all still be serfs - and the polarity between wealthy, uber-powerful leaders and the common man would be even greater.   Like it is in China.

    The potential for unlimited material well-being, regardless of class or education, is why poor people from other countries move here.  Good luck starting a company in France if you did not go to the right university or have friends in high places.   And in China even the right university will not help, except if you have any status in one you have already shown you can schmooze with bureaucrats and their favorite scientists who produce 'expert' opinion they like - i.e., correlating to the national needs of the bureaucrats.

    It's easy, because you live in free societies, to hold America to an unrealistic standard and give a known corrupt dictatorship a free pass by insisting we are all stupid sheep anyway, brainwashed by corporations and yet, you, magically, are not.   But I am going to need to see more proof before I accept that you two are that much smarter than me.
    Aitch
    Hank I sometimes wonder whether it takes extra smarts to be a perfect American, or if you are just born with 'superamericangenes' I don't hold America to any unrealistic standards, but am always suspicious of unrequited love for it I don't even think national boundaries are real divisions of people or culture....other than militarily enforced, .but then, I've travelled a bit I don't think people move to America [or any other 'wealthy' nation] because of the potential for unlimited material well-being....I think it's because as a people, you/we throw away stuff those same poor people cannot afford and spend their struggling lives dreaming of having before they die I've said before I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-corruption Aitch
    Hank
    Being well-traveled does lend some perspective.   It was probably about my eighth country that I realized America, at least as a vision, was better than I thought, thanks to media portrayals in my youth.    You may label appreciation as something that needs suspicion - well, I love my kids too, so certainly be suspicious when I believe they are smart, etc.    It is human nature to attribute motivation in others that is perfectly ordinary in ourselves.   

    Of the 20 or so countries I have visited for work or pleasure, I have never had a bad time, including in France, which used to be notorious for rudeness to foreigners.    But that may be because of how I approach people and life.  I don't think our culture is rubbish or yours either, nor do I think you have less freedom than I have even if you have some aspects I think are puzzling.   

    But economic mobility is the surest sign of freedom or it would be the thing that governments give up much more easily than they do.    With a million readers per month, there is surely a sizable group of people who grew up in greater poverty than me, yet I ended up doing pretty well without ever having to do anything unethical.   Could I also do that in England?  Sure.  China?   No possibility.

    Basically, I don't think intellectually docile people who take whatever expertise is handed to them without skepticism have more freedom than people who can choose not to accept science - even if their freedom frustrates you and Neven and I on occasion.    Lamenting that unless one specific action is taken right now regardless of cost or disagreement the world will go to hell is an ultra-conservative mentality and I don't subscribe to it.   I have more confidence in people than that - it's why I started this site, at a time when newspaper editors were insisting everything had to be written for a 13 year old or they wouldn't 'understand' it.    People are smart.
    So, the country that is knocking out coal-fired plants like they were assembly-line dolls is, in Friedman's eyes, a paragon of wise climate policy?

    Color me confused.

    “China’s leaders are mostly engineers and scientists, so they don’t waste time questioning scientific data.”

    These people who compare the USA with China and expect the results to be the same are living in fantasy. Chinas engineers are no better than ours. And they are all working for the government, so they aren’t allowed to question anything. Are you kidding, if they question it and a scandal erupts, the questioners don’t go to jail, they will be executed. Completely different situation from the USA.

    A dictatorship that does things right is better than a democracy that votes on doing things wrong.

    We tend to defend democracy far too quickly given that democracy cannot move quick enough to deal with many of today's problems. On top of that, vested interests can sway the conversation with money and lies.

    As for the coal power plants mentioned above, yes China is making a ton of coal power plants, but they are also bringing more nuke reactors online in the next 10 years than the entire world combined. China understand climate change better than almost any Western democracy.

    Hank,

    China is no more communistic than the old US of A. Give us a break you sound like having too much fun with your personal pharmacy.

    Hank
    You're making a broad conspiratorial claim that elections in the US are rigged the same way not having elections in China at all is rigged?
    I read the original article by Friedman and I think Mr. Campbell is missing the point. The message, to me anyway, is not so much that the Chinese are great and that their system of government is desirable (it isn't). In our great nation/democracy, the opportunity we have to address climate/energy issues and to apply American ingenuity and create American jobs has been hijacked by a right-wing, oil-industry denial campaign.

    Hank
    But that is your opinion.  'Hijacked' and 'denial' are entirely subjective and emotionally loaded terms.   I've met very few people who actually deny we are getting warmer or that pollution is bad.

    What is reality, regardless of political or cultural reference point, is that a left-wing dictatorship is running China and they can implement anything they want and, if it fails, it's too bad for the people hurt.   There is no science needed for China's beliefs so Friedman is simply doing what he often does - finding data to support his archaic economic principles.   Friedman's economics killed the 1970s so let's not allow it in the 2010s.  
    OK -- instead of hijacked or denial -- how about "mostly disregard the objective scientific data and most of the experts in the field of climate science" to disagree that that warming is occurring (some folks) or even if it is, that it is due to anything that man is doing. Its the sun, its a broad conspiracy to get funding, that CO2 is a good thing, etc.

    I offer no support for the Chinese political system. However, a correct approach (scientifically or economically) will work even when performed by a government that is distasteful/oppressive. Generally we would like to think that democracies will prevail over oppressive regimes... but that doesn't always happen, especially in the short term.

    Back to opinions -- it appears to me that much of the resistance to sound energy or climate policy in this country is driven by overt political considerations rather than any serious assessment of the science.

    Hank
    You're on a different issue now.  A serious assessment of climate science is not possible the way it is in physics - the numerical models they use are not accurate enough, they are more like political opinion polls than science, statistically likely but not the kind of confidence intervals required by hard science.   So there is a certain amount of belief rather than science involved in it.

    That said, we basically agree it is a political issue now but the genesis of it always was - Al Gore was a proponent of a CO2 basis long before it was even close to being valid, so either he was prescient or he just latched onto it because it was a way to stick it to heavy industry.  Now we know warming is happening but the reasons are even more unclear.   It's not science to say 'let's do something because that's better than nothing' it's politics.

    Add a comment

    The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
    • Allowed HTML tags: <sup> <sub> <a> <em> <strong> <center> <cite><TH><ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <img> <br> <p> <blockquote> <strike> <object> <param> <embed> <del> <pre> <b> <i> <table> <tbody> <div> <tr> <td> <h1> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <hr> <iframe><u><font>
    • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
    CAPTCHA
    If you register, you will never be bothered to prove you are human again. And you get a real editor toolbar to use instead of this HTML thing that wards off spam bots.