Anti-Vaccine Rhetoric: When Pro-Safe Is Pro-Misinformation

Kim Wombles

Recently, another blogger reviewed Vaccine Epidemic. The blogger's emphasis was on this quote taken from Allen Tate's chapter, "The Greater Good": "It is indisputable that the vaccination schedule has never been tested for safety in its entirety, or in the way that it is administered. In other words, while the government reviews, licenses, and compels individual vaccines, it does not test--or require vaccine makers to test--the safety and efficacy of vaccines given simultaneously or the cumulative effects of multiple vaccines" (83).

I left a comment at the blog (which was NOT posted) that perhaps the blogger might want to dig a little deeper, as this was inaccurate information. I even left a couple of helpful links, one of which was to CHOP's page. If I'd realized the blogger wasn't going to approve a mild comment offering information that directly countered Tate's inaccuracies, I'd have copied and pasted my reply so that I could have placed it here. Silly me. I keep forgetting not everyone's interested in accurate information.

Ah well, live and learn, right?

So let's look at this single quote lifted from Vaccine Epidemic.

Tate writes, "It is indisputable that the vaccination schedule has never been tested for safety in its entirety, or in the way that it is administered."

Really? But he offers no evidence for this extraordinary claim.

The CDC has a page on how vaccines are tested and approved. It's not detailed enough for the concerned consumer, unfortunately, and perhaps they'll fix that, as they realize that brief overviews are inadequate for those consumers who are ready to believe the worst of the US, the CDC, pharmaceutical companies, and the vaccine industry.

The FDA has a page, too. According to this page:

"Pre-marketing (pre-licensure) vaccine clinical trials are typically done in three phases, as is the case for any drug or biologic. Initial human studies, referred to as Phase 1, are safety and immunogenicity studies performed in a small number of closely monitored subjects. Phase 2 studies are dose-ranging studies and may enroll hundreds of subjects. Finally, Phase 3 trials typically enroll thousands of individuals and provide the critical documentation of effectiveness and important additional safety data required for licensing. At any stage of the clinical or animal studies, if data raise significant concerns about either safety or effectiveness, FDA may request additional information or studies, or may halt ongoing clinical studies."

That's not specific enough, is it? How are the vaccines tested? According to Dr. Paul Offit (email communication, quoted with permission), "Regarding vaccines, the non-inferiority rule is fairly specific. A new vaccine added to the schedule cannot decrease the level of the immune response by greater than 10 percent. And the existing vaccines cannot decrease the immune response of the new vaccine by more than 10 percent. This is actually a much stricter rule than that applied in Europe. Which is why they have more combination vaccines than we have."

For an example of a study discussing specifically whether the non-inferiority rule was met or not, there's a recent study from 2010 entitled "Evaluation of non-inferiority of intradermal versus adjuvanted seasonal influenza vaccine using two serological techniques: a randomised comparative study." Horne et al. explain the non-inferiority rule as it relates to vaccines: "The goal of a noninferiority trial is to demonstrate that an investigational product is not inferior to a control product (usually an active product for the same disease indication) by a clinically important amount, with respect to the chosen end points."

Let's look at a specific example of concomittance, though: a study Offit was a part of on the rotavirus vaccine, from 2006. In this study, the only exclusion dealt with the oral polio virus vaccine. Otherwise, "Concomitant administration of other licensed vaccines and breast-feeding were not restricted." Doesn't sound like vaccines aren't being studied as they're given.

According to the website Vaccinate Your Baby, "Finally, all vaccines are subjected to concomitant studies before they are approved for use, meaning that all new vaccines must be tested in conjunction with existing ones to ensure there are no negative interactions. Regulatory agencies such as the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are careful to look for any side effects associated with concomitant use before approving a new vaccine."

An additional example of the way in which vaccines are studied can be found on the FDA's website. The FDA provides a webinar on safety monitoring, as well. In addition to this webinar, the FDA provides a slide show on "Regulatory Perspective on Development of Preventive Vaccines for Global Infectious Diseases." On one slide it discusses "Key clinical trial design parameters •Endpoints; dose&dosing; duration; concomitant meds/vaccines."

Although there doesn't appear to be a neat, concise bullet comment at either the FDA or the CDC that would succinctly rebut Tate's argument, there is sufficient evidence readily available that suggests Tate, had he done a cursory review of the subject, should have known his statement was inaccurate.

If one did a little deeper digging, this article by Wang et al. would further explain how vaccines are studied:

"Once a correlate for disease protection has been established, immunogenicity trials with noninferiority/equivalence designs are widely used as economic and time-efﬁcient alternatives to large efﬁcacy trials in evaluating the effectiveness of a new or reformulated vaccine as compared to already licensed vaccines (Chan et al., 2003; Horne, 1995; Mehrotra, in press).

Noninferiority/equivalence designs are particularly useful in four common types of vaccine immunogenicity trials: vaccine bridging trials, combination vaccine trials, vaccine concomitant use trials, and vaccine consistency lot trials. Each of these trials serves a different purpose. For example, vaccine bridging trials are used because manufacturing processes or storage conditions may be changed after vaccine licensure to improve production yields and vaccine stability/shelf life. Vaccine bridging trials are often required to demonstrate that such changes do not have an adverse impact on vaccine effectiveness, by ruling out a clinically signiﬁcant difference in immune responses between the modiﬁed vaccine and the current vaccine.

Combination vaccine trials are typically used to rule out clinically signiﬁcant differences in immune responses between a combined vaccine and separate but simultaneously administered vaccines (Blackwelder, 1995; FDA, 1997; Horne et al., 2001). A combination vaccine is intended to prevent multiple diseases or to prevent one disease caused by different strains or serotypes of the same organism while reducing the number of injections required (Chan et al., 2003). Similarly, since the concomitant administration of multiple vaccines can reduce the number of vaccination visits, vaccine concomitant use trials are used to rule out clinically
signiﬁcant differences in immune responses between the concomitant administration of two or more vaccines and the separate administration of each vaccine."

Wang et al. continues, "The primary objective of a vaccine noninferiority/equivalence trial is to

demonstrate that a new or modiﬁed vaccine is noninferior or equivalent to the current vaccine by ruling out a prespeciﬁed clinically relevant difference in the immune response."

Let's get back to Tate, though. The quote from Tate continues, essentially repeating himself and further distorting the reality: "In other words, while the government reviews, licenses, and compels individual vaccines, it does not test--or require vaccine makers to test--the safety and efficacy of vaccines given simultaneously or the cumulative effects of multiple vaccines."

This isn't true. It does review, it does license, but it does not compel vaccination. Local governmental bodies and states may require vaccination in order to participate in the public event. Private companies may require that individuals be vaccinated. But no one compels. And it appears to be patently not true that the vaccine makers aren't testing the vaccines under real world conditions.

So while some readers might have found themselves moved to fear and distrust based on this simple quote from Tate, reasonable people, even with just the cursory glance at the evidence countering the contention, have to conclude that this was meant to make individuals reading it fearful and distrustful.

Addenda:

Works Cited

Wang, W. B., Mehrotra, D. V., Chan, I. F.,&Heyse, J. F. (2006). Statistical Considerations for NonInferiority/Equivalence Trials in Vaccine Development. Journal of Biopharmaceutical Statistics, 16(4), 429-441. doi:10.1080/10543400600719251

Additional articles on vaccine studies can be found here.

http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~jppalmer/cytel/rao_02.pdf

http://www.emea.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/Scientific_guideline/2009/09/WC500003809.pdf

http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_pediarix.pdf discusses concomitant vaccine administration

http://www.biometrics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/tr2001-01.pdf

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Guidances/UCM202140.pdf

An example from the FDA:

"In a submission to the BLA dated January 31, 2006, the Applicant committed to

conduct an adequately powered non-inferiority study of the concomitant

administration of RotaTeq™ with acellular pertussis vaccine in which serological

endpoints will be examined using a validated assay. The study will be powered

sufficiently to detect a 1.5-fold difference in GMTs. A final concept sheet for this

protocol will be submitted no later than May 3, 2006."

Comments

If they are so well tested and safe why to the makers need a law that shield them from lawsuits? The fact is they are not safe nor are they well tested. The FDA is approval panels are primarily made up of people who receive money from the same pharma companies they are supposed to be evaluating. I believed that the flu shot was a good thing and got one every year. Then, three years ago, a month after getting the vaccine I noticed a small bald spot on my chin. It grew over the next couple of months and several more appeared. It was an autoimmune response triggered by the flu shot. For the last three years these spots have been appearing on my face and going away after a few months. They have progressively moved from chin to my cheeks and now into my hair. I now I have a 2" on above my ear. I got a flu shot and now have bald patches, probably for the rest of my life, as a result. If I had known this is not an uncommon result I would have chose to run the risk of feeling lousy for a few days. The idea that vaccines are perfectly safe is a lie, they have major side effects and they should only be given where the risk outweighs the potential cost.

Anonymous (not verified) | 03/10/11 | 12:20 PM

Your comment is full of unsubstantiated claims that this very article belies. The average vaccine is tested for ten years before it ever gets approved; the rotavirus vaccine study I referenced had tens of thousands of volunteers: "The 34,035 infants in the vaccine group and 34,003 in the placebo group were monitored for serious adverse events."
And no one but anti-vaccination individuals put forth the contention that vaccines are "perfectly safe," so the people lying there are not the CDC, the FDA, the researchers, or the vaccine companies. It's the anti-vaccine people.

Still looking at the rotavirus vaccine study: "Serious adverse events were reported in 803 of
34,035 vaccine recipients (2.4 percent) and 859 of 34,003 placebo recipients (2.5 percent). Overall, 44 deaths occurred during the study, 24 among vaccine recipients (<0.1 percent) and 20 among placebo recipients (<0.1 percent). The most common cause of death in both groups was sudden infant death syndrome, which occurred in seven vaccine recipients and eight placebo recipients. No deaths were attributed to vaccination by investigators blinded to treatment assignment."

—

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” --MLK, Jr.

Kim Wombles | 03/10/11 | 12:51 PM

If they are so well tested and safe why to the makers need a law that shield them from lawsuits?

Lawsuits have nothing at all to do with science or medicine. Dirtbag trial lawyers like John Edwards became billionaires convincing juries to award damages based on emotion and doubt, not evidence. If all it takes is doubt to lose a million dollars to every attorney who alleges something may possibly perhaps have been attributed to a vaccine without any evidence, no company would ever produce a vaccine and a lot of kids will die.

Hank Campbell | 03/10/11 | 13:07 PM

There is a difference between combining vaccines in one vial(which you state is tested-course that's if you believe what the gov't says) and giving for example the MMR(combined vaccines) and doing the MMR, the DPT, polio and HepB all on the same day. I don't think you quite understand what Alan Tate is referring to. MM

Anonymous (not verified) | 03/10/11 | 22:10 PM

Of course ... why believe the government when I can believe online anonymous posters (the only people that are typically bigger liars than the politicians they despise)...

Gerhard Adam | 03/10/11 | 22:32 PM

So you mean the same FDA that was warned multiple times that Thimerosal was extremely toxic, and it is accumulative in the body and it targets the organs of the body in particular the brain and the lining around the brain. Source MSDS ; you do know, what that is. Which prompted this email received through the freedom of information act when speaking about the accumulative doses adding up to mercury poisoning and neurological damage. You see it doe's appear that those in charge of vaccine safety, was not able to do the simple 9 th grade math it would have taken to protect our children. Hence this email from the FOIA act by the CDC or the FDA "this was not rocket science, this was 9th grade math" You see these children in the 90's were given up to 160 times what the EPA says is Liquid Hazardous Waste of Mercury, that is according to an NIH paid study on baby primates and it " Thimerosal " was found to cross the blood brain barrier easier than doe's the fish AKA Methyl - Mercury. The children in the 90's, some got up to 9 vaccines 7 of which contain the Mercury. That is 32,500 ppb of mercury on one day at one setting, At one point in time. The EPA sets the # for LHW at 200 ppb, also on the MSDS of Thimerosal it warns if you are exposed to Thimerosal you could be more susceptible to Mercury poisoning if you are exposed to Mercury in the future. Wow that explains a lot, they set our children up to be Mercury poisoned with out even knowing it. By creating the perfect storm for neurological damage. In this next example, of the total and complete incompetence and callus disregard for our children's health,is possibly the straw that broke the toxic camels back so to speak. Under reactivity data on the MSDS it states to not mix Thimerosal with Aluminum, you see there's this one little thing called the synergy effect of metals being mixed. In other words the two salts Mercury and Aluminum. And the Toxicity climbs by 10 times when mixed,for the two react violently together. In almost all children's vaccines, was and is Aluminum as a catalyst . Another scientific warning, is ignored.

Example of the many times the FDA was being warned for decades, and speaking of decades here's another FOIA email this one is from the FDA to the FDA "were afraid the public will perceive us asleep at the switch for decades, for allowing this dangerous compound to remain in the vaccines" That statement is put into vivid perspective, by the fact that they had removed it Thimerosal from pet vaccines because it was causing neurological damage in dogs in 1990. But those in charge of vaccine safety, allowed it to remain in the vaccines for our American children till 2002 with a expiration date of 2004. It doe's appear our pets in this country, have more value than our American children.

From an AMA paid study, from1948 from a blue ribbon panel. Dr. Engley's findings of toxicity are as follows} "we find Thimerosal toxic down to an unbelievable level,down to one one millionth of a gram. And that's about as toxic as you can get,and it must be removed from everything it is in all the way down to over the counter but balm". The panel tried again in 1982 to get the FDA to ban Thimerosal, Just before Dr. Engley died he said } "if they had listened and followed through on our 1982 report,then all the Vaccines would have be freed from Thimerosal and they tell me all this autism would have never have occurred " ,Dr. Engley was one of the first to evaluate the toxicity of the vaccine preservative Thimerosal in 1948,and his findings that were by incompetence ignored twice by the FDA ! once in 1948, and again in 1982, and those were dire warnings. That if heeded, would have stopped the worse medical mistake in American history, and in doing so. It could have stopped the suffering of our children, and the cost that is now breaking our U.S. schools for these children cost 3.2 million to 5 million each for their life long total care.

Because of this mans warnings, the over the counter product Merthiolate which is the same as Thimerosal was found to be unsafe for OTC over the counter use. And was banned in the US. But! what was proved not safe to put on skin abrasions. because of the damage it causes to skin cells, it was deemed safe! to be injected for over a decade in newborns at birth. And allowed to be injected at levels at 160 times what the EPA considers as Liquid Hazardous Waste, all at one point in time! There is no common sense in this kind of behavior at all, in fact what
we have is, people who are desperate to keep in children's vaccines. What was found to be not safe on the skin, So that the numbers of neurological damaged children & Autism will not quickly plummitt,from the immediate removal of the vaccine preservative Thimerosal.

Here is the proof that the AMA, knew about the dangers of Thimerosal and has for financial sake have decided to engage in willful blindness. Accentually looking away, from the suffering of the children.

The AMA, paid for the blue ribbon evaluation of Thimerosal by Dr. Engleys team.

It is clear from this research supported by a grant from the American Medical Association that Thimerosal is
neither efficacious nor safe, and should be removed as a preservative in prescription biologics and pharmaceutical products, as well as from topical over-the-counter products such as Butt-Balm that have Thimerosal present in their formulations as an active ingredient.

They AMA knew back then that Thimerosal is neither efficacious nor safe as a children's vaccine preservative.Yet they continued letting it being injected in children? How is this kind of world class incompetence, being responsible? when in charge of vaccine safety? The current vaccines and schedule, is at best a roll of the dice with
a 1 in 68 chance of having an Autistic child if it is a boy. Other wise your chances improve, to a 1 in 110 chance for children in general. Feeling lucky?

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 02:08 AM

You quoted Albert Einstein,he also said this}

They evidently don't remember what is written out side their building.

(engraved on National Academy of Sciences building in
Washington, D.C., location of NIH & IOM)

Einstein

“The right to search for truth implies also a duty. One must not conceal any part
of what one has recognized to be true.”

Unless of course one finds, they have accidentally poisoned a generation of kids. For the greater good.

Albert Einstein would be appalled, if he could see how corrupt & uncaring our government health agency's have become today.

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 02:38 AM

The CDC also says 36,000 people die from the flu every year,the GAO's office called them out on that lie and said the CDC is misleading the public for they are counting all the elderly that died with respiratory complications.

The CDC lied about the amount of people who die a year from the flu, what makes you think they won't lie to protect their selves from the mass poisoning of the children through the vaccine program?

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 02:48 AM

Well, great job doing some detective work, but the stuff you cite still doesn't prove that there's research out there specifically designed to evaluate the effects on the other parts of the body, say, and in that sense the whole safety of concomitant vaccinations. Yes, I do believe that studying the immune response difference between combined vaccines and separate but simultaneously administered ones, but this doesn't exactly cover what effects either of those two have on the body as a whole. Remember that scientific studies are very rigid and specific. It's practically impossible to design accurate, comprehensive studies that encompass all the variables involved when affecting the human body (or any other mammal's body). All we know is that vaccines work to prevent disease by prompting immune responses.

["'Combination vaccine trials are typically used to rule out clinically signiﬁcant differences in immune responses between a combined vaccine and separate but simultaneously administered vaccines'"]

Just saying. Your evidence for your argument doesn't really do much to support any claims other than the fact that Tate might have been jumping the gun just about as much as most people do when trying to prove a point.

Also using Vaccinate Your Baby as a source doesn't exactly boost the credibility of your argument. "Vaccinate Your Baby is an awareness campaign that was launched by Every Child By Two, an organization devoted to raising awareness of the critical need for timely immunization and to foster a systematic way to immunize all of America's children by age two. " Sure, they work with the CDC, who, as I said, have not done any published studies that specifically evaluate the overall and also more detailed effects of multiple injections on the immune system. Also keep in mind that immunology is a very young science. There is much we don't know about the immune system. How much do we know about multiple sclerosis? Not much. So is it that farfetched that the hep B vaccine could have something to do with MS?
Here's something from the CDC website: "Numerous studies have evaluated a possible relationship between hepatitis B vaccination and multiple sclerosis (MS). The weight of the available scientific evidence does not support the suggestion that hepatitis B vaccine causes or worsens MS." Just look at that language there. Is there anything affirmative about those two statements?
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/multiplesclerosis_and_hep_b.html

Nobody can pretend to know everything about this subject. All we can do is err on the side of caution and try to be as rational as possible.

Megan (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 04:24 AM

@KWombles

Any thoughts?

Megan (not verified) | 03/12/11 | 19:57 PM

^Serious adverse side effects wouldn't include side effects that end up manifesting themselves later in life. Autism may have nothing to do with vaccinations, but as there is no surefire way to test for it because autism is itself a complex, poorly understood, or even a possibly misidentified disease, we can't say that the research done for vaccines doesn't have its gaps.

Also, overgeneralizing people, like calling groups of people "anti-vaccine people," doesn't help your cause in so intelligently debunking their concerns. The group of "anti-vaccine people" includes some very knowledgeable persons as well as all the people you think are idiots.

I myself am pro-vaccine but think it's disingenuous to act as if there's ever enough research done about anything, really. You know, like, remember that one Socrates quote or something? It may not be true that we know *nothing*, but there's something to be said about scientific research in that it's slow, meticulous, and when done on human subjects often too simplistic in its isolation of variables.

Megan (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 16:33 PM

Also I think it's quite insensitive to tell someone (first poster Anon) who is themselves experience some autoimmune disorder as a possible side effect of flu shots that there is no evidence substantiating his/her claims. How much do you know about the nature of autoimmune diseases?

There is no right or wrong or either/or in this situation. Things are not so black and white. I don't get how people can be so self-righteous.

Megan (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 16:40 PM

Can any of you read? Or, do you think I am just lying? If what I wrote is true these people have beat Saddam at
being mercer less. I assure you, I have done my home work and I can and will back up everything I have posted.

The public health people including CDC, FDA, & IOM, and the worse of all the AAP, that is dependent on the Vaccine makers for 85 ct's of every dollar they use to maintain their brand new building. That is state of the art, they owe them (meaning the Vaccine Co's) everything! in fact I used to have several internal emails from the AAP praising the Vaccine Co's for the millions they have donated to them. And in one of the emails, the AAP officer actually admits that they owe them for the state of the art AAP building. For with out them to obtain it, it would not be possible he said. It's those people who are claiming that the parents are spreading misinformation,when in fact they themselves have perfected the art of the most corrupted misinformation in American history on this issue. And I assure you the misinformation is easily detected, just read their damn internal FOIA emails that prove! They were and are even today, only interested in saving an out of control very broken vaccine program that has produced the sickest children in American history, They are winning this argument in the press, because they are depended on the press not! Doing their own research, and so far it is working. For even and idiot ! could follow the trail of this total incompetence that those charged with vaccine safety have left. But do remember this, they are not! winning in the hearts and minds of the public. Because the numbers, of vaccinated are dropping. And in the hearts and minds of the parents, is where this war will be fought and won.

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 19:55 PM

I have done my home work and I can and will back up everything I have posted.

Then perhaps you should, since you simply sound like a nutcase without it.

Gerhard Adam | 03/11/11 | 21:04 PM

My sources are as follows, the emails were obtained through the Freedom of information act and were read at
Congressman Dan Burtons hearings on vaccines and Autism.
This is direct from Dr. Engleys findings concerning the efficiency and safety of Thimerosal and is proof that the AMA before pharma castrated them knew the truth about the Toxicity of Thimerosal. After all they paid for the study.

It is clear from this research supported by a grant from the American Medical Association that Thimerosal is
neither efficacious nor safe, and should be removed as a preservative in prescription biologics and pharmaceutical products, as well as from topical over-the-counter products such as Butt-Balm that have Thimerosal present in their formulations as an active ingredient.

Many of the Toxic remarks including the post on reactivity data were from the Manufacturers Safety Data Sheet of
the children's vaccine preservative Thimerosal that is almost 50% Mercury by weight.

The post concerning the 9 vaccines is common knowledge, of a child in the 90's playing the game of AAP CDC vaccine catch up. And when you count 7 of which contain the mercury, it equals 32,500 ppb of mercury. The part
about the EPA sets the standard for liquid hazardous waste, is also common knowledge and was Congressman Dan Burtons testimony concerning his own grandsons vaccine induced Autism within days of his vaccines " 2 " I believe is what the Congressman said. And his grandson was gone! he was the chair of the Government reform committee. The last findings ogf the Government reform committee was that Thimerosa and vaccines were indeed
responsibile for the Autism increases.

The part about the Vaccineal Mercury crossing the BBB easier was from an NIH study on baby primates,done by
Dr. Burbacher he also said that Thimerosal turns into Inorganic Mercury by 2.5 times that as doe's the fish Mercury AKA Methyl-Mercury.

When considering the fact that the children like Hannah Poling, who was told the Vaccines caused her mito problem to turn into Autism. Some and maybe most of the children with Autism have a Mitochondria problem. I took the time to research what is the most damaging to the Mitochondria, and that answer is. Inorganic mercury and MSG both of which are in the vaccines. You see, the Thimerosal enters the body as such,and as it travels through the body it turns into ethyl-mercury. Then after it inters the BBB and the brain, it turns into inorganic mercury. Which happens to be the most damaging to the Mitochondria. And is very efficient at depleting the glutathione that children need to excrete the Mercury.

You see Dr.Engley findings on the Toxicity were published in two journals.

It should be noted that this article was published in the January 1948 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association

It should be noted that this article was published in 1950 in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences

I believe, I answered your need for sources.

But if I have not, please tell me what you need further.

Please note the parents who read all this,they see people who are defending the large amounts of Mercury that I speak of . And they probably are wondering, why someone would defend poisoning our children. I know I would.

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/11/11 | 23:17 PM

You've got to be joking.

Unless you have a time machine, reviewing history isn't relevant. While you may argue that it was Engley's work that was responsible for removing Thimerosal from pediatric vaccines, I don't see what 50 year old studies have to do with anything you're stating.

Since 2001, with the exception of some influenza (flu) vaccines, thimerosal is not used as a preservative in routinely recommended childhood vaccines.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/index.html

So that's 10 years of no Thimerosal in vaccines. Has that reduced the incidences of autism?

Here's a list of the childhood vaccines and their Thimerosal content
http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/safetyavailability/vaccinesafety/ucm096228.htm#t1

Incidently, it is interesting to consider this comment from Engley:

Because Dr. Engley wanted to focus on the research and facts that he knew, and did not want to comment directly on autism, since he had not directly done research on it,
http://combatingautismfromwithin.blogspot.com/2007/10/dr-engley-meredith.html

So we have a researcher you're citing that indicates that he hasn't actually done any research on autism.

The articles you're citing are:
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1950 Aug;53(1):197-206.Links
Evaluation of mercurial compounds as antiseptics.

Morton HE, North LL, and Engley FB. The bacteriostatic and
bactericidal actions of some mercurial compounds on
hemolytic streptococci. JAMA. 1948;136(1):37-41.

Neither of which have anything to do with autism and vaccines (which are also the only two papers dealing with this topic).

I also noticed that you didn't mention the full context of what was requested by Dan Burton

A White House Conference could bring together the best scientific minds to chart a comprehensive research agenda to uncover the underlying causes of this epidemic, including the exploration of the biologically plausible theory of mercury poisoning though childhood immunizations and dental amalgams.
http://www.newdiets.com/Writings/Dan_Burton.shtml

So if Thimerosal isn't being used in pediatric vaccines, then why no fuss about dental amalgams? Perhaps because that is a clear cut case of where it couldn't possibly effect infants?

So, in the end your whole point is what? That a Congressman (whom you wouldn't believe for anything else he might say), claims that there's a link between autism and vaccines? A single scientist whose research demonstrated the toxicity of Thimerosal (which has been removed) and who has not studied autism?

Even one of the anti-vaccine sites offers this information:

Now all childhood vaccines have at least one mercury-free version, and I urge parents to ask for those versions if they choose to vaccinate their children.
http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html

Isn't this what you wanted? What's your beef?

Gerhard Adam | 03/12/11 | 00:00 AM

In 2001 the IOM had ruled on the biological evidence as a cause for Autism,they ruled that it was biologically plausible. That's a fact. In 2004 the CDC told the IOM to pay very little attention to the biological evidence (that
has already been evaluated and found to be biologically plausible in 2001) and to put all their confidence in the
large population based studies. Now do learn this, the Powerful House Appropriations committee asked the NIH
to evaluate the Vaccines Autism science that the CDC says they have. The NIH charged the NIEHS to do the work,
this is the findings of the panel

This info is from a real journalist, and a friend to the Autism community. Best selling author, David Kirby.

CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding has delivered a potentially explosive report to the powerful House Appropriations Committee, in which she admits to a startling string of errors in the design and methods used in the CDC's landmark 2003 study that found no link between mercury in vaccines and autism, ADHD, speech delay or tics.

Gerberding was responding to a highly critical 2006 report from the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which concluded that the CDC's flagship thimerosal safety study was riddled with "several areas of weaknesses" that combined to "reduce the usefulness" of the study.

"CDC concurs," Dr. Gerberding wrote in an undated mea culpa to Congress, (provided to me through a Capital Hill staffer) adding that her agency "does not plan to use" the database in question, the Vaccine Safety Datalink, (VSD) for any future "ecological studies" of autism.

David if I may step in for a second and say,that's why when the protection for the maker of the Eli-Lillys preservative
Thimerosal was taken out of the homeland security bill by Congress. The President GW Bush tried to seal the VSD
Vaccine Safety Data Link for life. Strange considering that's their proof that vaccines are safe, and and do not cause
Autism. Later after Congress gets someone into the VSD an independent, we find out why he the President wanted them sealed for life. You see two researchers evaluated that data and found not 2.48 times risk that they were trying to hide that had been whittled down to 1.59 to below legal of 2.00. The two researchers asked for the earlier work that had been brought down from 2.48 and they were told it had accidentally been destroyed out of the VSD.

That's convenient considering,the fact that the two researchers ordered by Congress to be allowed to access the
VSD was asked in a Congressional hearing by Congressman Dan Burton did you find 2.48 times risk?

No Congressman, we found 11 and 27 times risk when considering DPT vs Non Thimerosal DPT

Parents that's why they do not want, a Vaccinated vs Non vaccinated study. The results would be the end of the vaccine program as we know it. For 11 and 27 times risk, is considered in anybody s eyes as mass poisoning.

At the time the President asked to seal the VSD for life, he had three ex Lilly executives working at the white house.

Guess who runs our country.

David you may continue

In fact, Gerberding's report said, any continued use of the VSD for similar ecological studies of vaccines and autism "would be uninformative and potentially misleading."

As questionable at the US thimerosal study was, "it was an improvement on other studies, including the two in Denmark, both of which had serious weaknesses in their designs," Dr. Irva Hertz-Picciotto, Professor of Public Health at UC Davis Medical School and Chair of the NIEHS panel, told reporter Dan Olmsted at UPI.

That leaves very little for the CDC to go on in terms of proving that thimerosal and autism are not associated in any way.

Davids part is over I will finish from here

Very little, and a Denmark study done by a Danish financial fraud that is appearing to be well planed out highly paid fraud. Cannot win in a real court, or for that matter in the vaccine court either if it were not completely corrupt.

Here is where the corruption comes into play, and the CDC begins stacking the deck against the parents with fake studies, and the Denmark studies that compared the children in Denmark with American children. Problem # 1
the children in Denmark had gotten 90% less mercury than the American children. accentually comparing apples
to jets.

Problem # 2 If they the CDC had the science you think they had, why this email stating that the IOM meeting is within weeks and they have searched frantically and cannot find anything here and they are going to have to go elsewhere and get them a study?

And when they contacted them, they said we are only interested in what will exonerate the CDC and Vaccines.
I believe, if you are charged with finding the cause of Autism that is taking 1 in 68 boys almost 2 % and 1 in 110 children that is 1 % With those kind of numbers, one would think that you would take finding the cause and producing a treatment seriously. If you really want results, I suggest you not tell someone that is being funded by
the NIH only look for what will exonerate you and the product that you are charged with injecting in children in your mandated vaccine program.

problem # 3 If you do tell someone that, why would you be surprised when he allegedly commits forgery to obtain
almost 2 million dollars and skips the country of Denmark with said money?

problem # 4 If someone allegedly doe's do that, and the Denmark authorities are searching for him to question him
why on earth would he be found in Atlanta at the home of the CDC? And why if he is being sought for the alleged
ripping off the American people, did you have him in Atlanta set to be the head of the DSM V ?was it to commit more fraud?

And why was this guy being paid by the university in Denmark, but was also on the payroll of two U.S. university's?
That smacks of paying for alleged fraud to get the exoneration they paid for through other sources other than the NIH CDC funding. Was Pharma paying for any of this hush money, or just the tax payers?

The CDC, immediately upon removal of Thimerosal from the children's vaccines. Put it back almost instantly in pregnant women and children 6 mos to 2 yrs, so you now have the reason the Autism did not fall dramatically.

Now explain this, according to the MSDS of Thimerosal pregnant women are never supposed to be exposed
to Thimerosal for it can cross the placenta and go into the baby and cause mild to severe mental retardation.

At the Simpson wood meeting they were discussing this, you would never want to go any earlier with the Mercury
or you would most certainly get more out comes. And they did!

The CDC Dir. said that children 6 mos to two yr's, needed to get their flu vaccine. That's awful strange considering
that the UK IOM Cochrane Collaboration found that children 6 mos to two yr's, get absolutely no benefit except that
of a placebo effect from the inactivated flu vaccine.

You really should be wondering why would the Dir. of the CDC allow pregnant women to be exposed to something
that the Manufacturer says, they should never be exposed to.

And why would the CDC put something that may be responsible for Autism, back in the children that they removed
for a prudent measure. For a placebo effect.

The answer is one of two things, they were desperate to keep it Thimerosal in the children to stop any possibility of the new chronic diseases ADD, ADHD, Autism Bipolar and others to many to mention of having a water fall effect in the dropping of any new cases. And in doing so, that would be premeditated poisoning of American children. Or, there is the remote possibility She the Dir. was just stupid. Either of which, I do believe doe's not belong in charge of vaccine safety.

We now know, which one she was. After lying to the public and Congress about the science they had, she the Dir. went to work one week after her cool off period of one year at Merck for 2 million a year. The same company, she used to regulate.

Had I known, all of this corruption was in the Vaccine program at the time we Vaccinated, I would have not Vaccinated ever. And by doing so, I would not have a so to speak Autism / Alzheimer's patient on steroids
to watch for life.

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/12/11 | 11:31 AM

Once again, it seems like your dispute is with history and not current events. If the Thimerosal is removed (which is indicated for all the routine pediatric vaccinations), then what is your beef?

If your point is simply to rant about the past, then that's one thing. If your point is that you wanted things changed, then the indications are that it has.

The CDC, immediately upon removal of Thimerosal from the children's vaccines. Put it back almost instantly in pregnant women and children 6 mos to 2 yrs, so you now have the reason the Autism did not fall dramatically.

What does that mean? Are you saying that the data is wrong or fabricated? If so, what is your proof? How does the CDC put a drug into pregnant women and children?

Of course if your statement were true, then we would expect to see a reduction in autism in children in other countries where Thimerosal isn't included, but we don't see that either. Instead it seems that your focus is exclusively on the political process in the U.S. and ignoring evidence from everywhere else in the world that fails to support your claim that Thimerosal causes autism.

More to the point, if your statement were true, it wouldn't simply be a matter of corruption but it would rise to the level of criminal intent which is definitely capable of being prosecuted. While we may all have varying degrees of cynicism and trust in how the government, its agencies, and businesses work, when people create conspiracy scenarios that require such large scale cooperation ... it strongly suggests that it isn't true.

And in doing so, that would be premeditated poisoning of American children.

Once again, the problem here is that such decisions aren't made by one person. If you're telling me that the entire CDC and scientific community wants to conspire to poison American children, then I have to conclude you're simply crazy. (NOTE: Bear in mind that this conspiracy would have to include most doctors and hospitals as well).

The problem here is that your comments lack support from other areas of the world that are not subject to the influences you claim of government and industry here. Scientists are not in the business of covering up for each other. I'm not suggesting that scientists aren't capable of being wrong nor even being corrupt. However, to expect me to believe that there's a worldwide conspiracy to give your child Thimerosal for no better reason than to cover up an autism link ... well that stretches credulity to the limits.

Gerhard Adam | 03/12/11 | 11:46 AM

They call us anti vaccine, that cannot be true. For we are living with the aftermath of the damage that vaccines have
caused.

I am all for protecting our children,but not if you believe throwing some in the volcano is justified and done for the greater good. You see that kind of thinking, is twisted. And is just, plain stupid!

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/12/11 | 11:56 AM

For we are living with the aftermath of the damage that vaccines have caused.

Actually you don't know that, but it becomes something that's easy to believe.

I am all for protecting our children

No, you're not. You're all about blaming someone. In your mind, you've already solved the problem and if people don't accept your conclusion, then the whole world must be conspiring to keep that information out of your hands.

There is no evidence that the Thimerosal connection exists for autism. While you can talk about the U.S. all you like, you have to consider the rest of the world too, and consider whether there's any evidence to support your claim.

For the sake of argument, what will you say if in a few years someone announces a definitive discovery for the cause of autism and has strong compelling evidence for that link. Are you going to deny that discovery? Are you going to go back and apologize for the all the misinformation you were so insistent was correct?

However, here's the important question. Based on your claim of the Thimerosal autism connection, are you suggesting that all future autism research be stopped? After all, if you already have the answer, then any other research is a sham and waste of money.

What you fail to grasp is that your position is untenable. You've set yourself up so that if you believe everyone is lying you can never learn the truth. You've effectively said that scientists aren't to be trusted, so that makes is impossible for you to ever find out the real autism connection. After all, if you don't trust anyone that's providing you information, who will do the research and make the discoveries? You?

There's plenty to be angry about regarding our government and there's no reason to believe that business interests have our welfare at the top of their priority list. However, at some point when there's enough evidence from disinterested sources that must be considered and if there's no link, then no amount of cynicism and blame is going to make that data valid.

So, I say again .... forget the U.S. Where's the data from other countries that show an improvement in autism rates because of the removal of Thimerosal.

Gerhard Adam | 03/12/11 | 12:15 PM

No Gerard the fact is this, Pregnant women an children 6 mos. to to yr's were considered at risk for flu complications and according to the Dir. of the CDC must ! get their flu shots.

Another strange thing, is how doe's one tell pregnant women to not eat certain fish because of the Mercury content.
But! do go down and get 2 flu vaccines that contain 25 micro grams of a mercury that has been found in an NIH study
to cross the blood brain barrier easier than doe's the fish mercury. Again just stupid, or as they said when talking about having to remove Thimerosal from children's vaccines "we have a plan in place"

You see you just can't pull it out! the numbers will plummet ! and they knew or suspected just that. That's why they said "we have a plan in place" they left out they were going to use scare tactics, to sneak it back in.

You said, If you're telling me that the entire CDC and scientific community wants to conspire to poison American children, then I have to conclude you're simply crazy. (NOTE: Bear in mind that this conspiracy would have to include most doctors and hospitals as well).

The CDC is at war internally ,over this issue. But will not come forward, reason because of what happens to whistle blowers like David Graham who blew the whistle on the Merck product Vioxx that was causing untold amounts of damage to the public. The FDA instead of applauding him, tried to fire and destroy him.

Your getting it all wrong, they do not wish to do this. They have to do this, to cover up a massive mistake of biblical proportions with consequences that could include and and range from billion dollar lawsuits to prison time for most who were in the know. This all began when a Congressman thought he was doing the right thing, by finding
everything that Americans are exposed to that contain Mercury. Because Mercury is a neurological toxin and causes brain damage and lowers the IQ of children It was called the white paper.

Just how doe's the Big hospitals and Dr's and Ped's that have placed all their confidence and money in vaccines being safe. Tell the public they probably have poisoned an entire generation of American children, and to complicate things and make them even worse. Also the children of the world.

That's a tall order don't you think, what's the chances of that happening ? especially with what they were told at the Simpson wood meeting. About how with the current science out there, they could all be sued.
And with very bad outcomes from the lawsuits.

In other words we cannot prove that a neurl toxin given to some at levels at 160 times what the EPA defines as liquid hazardous waste did not damage an entire generation of American children.

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/12/11 | 14:06 PM

...Dir. of the CDC must ! get their flu shots.

Unless you're suggesting that the CDC director has the power of law and is personally giving out flu shots by coercion your statement is meaningless. These are decisions between individuals and their doctor, which includes making their own choices.

You see you just can't pull it out! the numbers will plummet !

Sorry but now you're just getting silly. If Thimerosal is NOT in the vaccines, then unless a child is born autistic because of exposure in the mother's womb (i.e. from flu vaccine), then you should already see the numbers plummet if your connection were correct.

You're asking me to believe that the CDC is in a conspiracy to ensure that mothers and children still get exposed to the same amount of mercury, after removing it from vaccines, in a calculating move to ensure that autism rates don't come down, so that they can cover up the Thimerosal that has now been removed, so that the results are the same as if it hadn't been removed.

Of course, it isn't possible to examine the numbers in Europe where it has also been removed and see if there's an effect. Unless you're also suggesting that the CDC is intercepting news stories and scientific reports and doctoring them to maintain the illusion.

They have to do this, to cover up a massive mistake of biblical proportions with consequences that could include and and range from billion dollar lawsuits to prison time for most who were in the know.

See, that's where you lose me, since the CDC would have no liability in this regardless of how it turned out. You could certainly argue that pharmaceuticals and perhaps even individuals within the FDA could be responsible if someone filed lawsuits or alleged crimes. Certainly Congress has the authority to hold hearing if federal officials were involved in some criminal activity or cover-up. However, the CDC isn't on that list since they have no regulatory power and consequently has no liability.

Just how doe's the Big hospitals and Dr's and Ped's that have placed all their confidence and money in vaccines being safe. Tell the public they probably have poisoned an entire generation of American children, and to complicate things and make them even worse.

Once again, this is the problem with conspiracy theories because they forget to account for others that have no interest in such cover-ups not exposing them. So how would be such a watchdog? Insurance companies that have to pay out higher benefits in terms of illness and longevity. If there were an entire generation that had been "poisoned" you can bet that someone would be looking to mitigate the costs and liabilities of such an exposure and it isn't likely that the insurance companies would simply roll over and accept them (also think life insurance companies that aren't part of the medical establishment). Life insurance isn't likely to project longer life expectancy in light of the news that a generation had been "poisoned".

In short, you've provided no information from outside sources (like Europe), but instead keep wanting to harp on a conspiracy within the U.S. As I said, the world is a large place and there should be evidence available, but it seems you aren't interested in articulating a coherent case, but simply want to ramble on about criminal activities (for which you have even less proof).

Gerhard Adam | 03/13/11 | 15:39 PM

One Mad Dad is bent on ranting and not at all interested in silly things like "science", "data", and "statistics" -- All silly things that get in the way of fantastical tales of a corruption, greed, conspiracy, and deceit!

I suggest he writes a fiction book; he's very good.

Bayani Mills (not verified) | 03/12/11 | 16:29 PM

It's really simple.

The data demonstrates you are wrong, One Mad Dad.

Bayani Mills (not verified) | 03/12/11 | 16:33 PM

Here is what your vaccine program has produced, and it is not at all even close to what we have been told in the media.

Americans Have Worse Health Than English Peers, Study Finds Researchers used data on nearly 40,000
residents of the United States and 70,000 residents of England taken from nationally representative health
surveys of the respective countries.

After all the numbers were crunched, Americans had higher rates of nearly all chronic diseases and markers of diseases than people of a similar age in England .

Taken together, the worse health of Americans by nearly every measure should be a wake-up call for the public and policymakers, said study author Melissa Martinson, a postdoctoral research associate in the Office of Population Research at Princeton University.

The finding that even American youths are less healthy than English youths came as something of a surprise, Martinson said. They expected to find that middle-aged and older Americans were in poorer health than those of a similar age in England because of the higher rates of obesity in the United States , higher rates of diabetes, heart disease and other lifestyle and behavioral factors.

Americans make up just 5 percent of the world's population, yet they represent more than half of every medical dollar spent on the planet, Avendano said.

And all that money isn't doing them as much good as one might think it would. American life expectancy is near the bottom of rankings that include European nations, he explained. ( again not the propaganda, we have been told.
In fact I believe the last word was, we Americans are living longer and have modern medicine to thank )

It's especially notable that this paper compared Americans to people in England , who are considered among the least healthy Europeans, Martinson said.

"I presented this paper in England , and they were all surprised because they are known as the 'sick' European country," she said. "They were saying, 'The U.S. must be doing really bad because they're worse than us, and we're worse than the rest of the European countries.'"

Some people are dumbed down so badly they see themselves dieing in their 50's and still they believe the media saying we are living longer and are more healthier than ever. So says your beloved gods from pharma.

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/12/11 | 20:06 PM

So now you've just decided to shift the argument to general health instead of mercury? Perhaps you're claiming that mercury is responsible for all health problems?

Of course, it couldn't be because of insurance issues here which differentiate us from the UK, and things like increased obesity and early-onset diabetes, etc.

In short, your argument lacks focus and your original claim about mercury is simply unfounded and it seems you're trying to make a general argument about health in the U.S. which bears even less relationship to your point.

Gerhard Adam | 03/13/11 | 15:42 PM

The partnership of the medical community and the drug co's, and also the journals. is incestuously evil.
When you look at the relationship with the so called journalist Brian Deer, you find a mole.
For the pharmaceutical & the CDC, a hand made assassin to destroy any do gooders that threatens the
money machine.

FYI

The editor in chief of the BMJ acknowledges that AHRP was right to criticize the BMJ and its editor for failing to disclose to its readership, the BMJfinancial ties to Merck--manufacturer of 13 vaccines. She also acknowledges
income from GSK--manufacturer of several vaccines as well.

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1335/reply#bmj_el_251470

Although Vera's claims may seem far-fetched on this occasion, she is right that we should have declared the BMJ Group's income from Merck as a competing interest to the editorial (and the two editor's choice articles)
that accompanied Brian Deer's series on the Secrets of the MMR scare.[2] [3] [4] We should also, as you say, have declared the group's income from GSK as a competing interest in relation to these articles. We will publish
clarifications."

And may I remind you, Elsevier created 6 fake journals for Merck. And they admitted it!

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/13/11 | 19:16 PM

The partnership of the medical community and the drug co's, and also the journals. is incestuously evil.

OK ... now we're beyond evidence and simply into full scale conspiracy theory mode. When one uses terms like "evil", the discussion is no longer rational.

Elsevier created 6 fake journals for Merck.

Yes, but what you're failing to mention is that it occurred from 2000 to 2005. However, what's the most important here, is that YOU found out about it. There was no conspiracy to keep that information from you and more importantly, many others were involved in investigating this so that such information could be made publicly available.

In other words, the "evil" that you're claiming is so prevalent is disproven by the simple fact that you found out about the wrong-doing. No one is suggesting that such things don't happen, but to argue that they persistently happen and that there is a worldwide conspiracy to allow them to continue is simply wrong. Wherever such things occur, there is someone or some group that will bring such things to light, which makes the ability to maintain a conspiracy very difficult if not impossible.

This is the problem with all conspiracy theories, because they require a level of cooperation that is simply impossible to maintain.

So you want me to believe that a company created a fake set of publications for 5-6 years but couldn't maintain the secret, but instead that there is a much larger conspiracy to intentionally poison women and children that has existed for an even longer period of time. Do you see where it falls apart?

Gerhard Adam | 03/13/11 | 19:23 PM

I would like to send the entire letter from Congressman Weldon, a Dr. to the Dir of the CDC with your permission
that is.

You never once commented, on a person of such responsibility as the CDC Dir. allowing a pregnant women to get
a Mercury preservative that is worse than Methyl-Mercury that the manufacturer warns to never expose preg. women to or you will get mild to severe mental retardation source MSDS of Thimerosal.

( My thoughts ) Mild ADD, ADHD, Speech Delay, severe Autism, Bipolar, Anorexia, we always wondered where they came from. Now we know, they were VACCINE induced in children who were susceptible.

Or children 6 mos. to 2 yr's old given a flu shot containing the full strength 25 micro-grams of the same mercury that they removed. For a placebo effect???

A reminder, the 1 st scientific findings on the Vaccines & Autism connection & in particular Thimerosal that spurred
the need for the Simpson Wood meeting had produced these findings before the as they put it .
( Handling of the situation ) the findings}

"if a child receives 62.5 micro grams of Thimerosal by age 3 mos. that child has a 2.48 times risk of getting ADD, ADHD, Speech or Autism, Side note that amount is 2 regular full strength 25 micro-grams ea. and a Hep-b 12 .5
micro-grams so three all together was 62.5 micro-grams and the concern was this much given over a 3 month span. . What would 7 vaccines all at once, in other words at one point in time AKA a BOLUS dose. All with full strength Mercury + a Hep-b at 12.5 what times risk would that get you.

Congressmen Dan Burtons grandson received 9 vaccines, 7 with the mercury all on one day at one point in time.
2 days later full blown Autistic behavior.

So what they are saying here, is with that amount you have a .48 over legal of 2.00 of getting any of these chronic diseases. The following is from this meeting }

Dr. Brent: Page 229: “The medical legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological,pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”

These numbers were moved several times down to 1.59 which is below legal, The researcher had been working at GSK for 3.5 years while the CDC moved the numbers down down down to 1.59 here is how they did it.

As a person researches this, you find people who are terrorized by what happened on their watch and will do anything including fraud. AKA Denmark studies....

We can alter the exclusion criteria any we way we want, give reasonable justifications for doing so,and get any
result we want; How do these people sleep at night?

In June of 2000 a meeting was held in Simpsonwood, GA, involving the authors of the study,
representatives of the CDC, and the vaccine industry. I have reviewed a transcript of this meeting
that was obtained through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). Comments from Simpsonwood,
NJ meeting include: (summary form, not direct quotes):
• We found a statistically significant relationship between exposures and outcomes. There is certainly
an under ascertainment of adverse outcomes because some children are just simply not old enough to
be diagnosed, the current incidence rates are much lower than we would expect to see (Verstraeten);
• We could exclude the lowest exposure children from our database. Also suggested was removing
the children that got the highest exposure levels since they represented an unusually high percentage
of the outcomes. (Rhodes)
• The significant association with language delay is quite large. (Verstraeten);
• This information should be kept confidential and considered embargoed;
• We can push and pull this data anyway we want to get the results we want;
• We can alter the exclusion criteria any we way we want, give reasonable justifications for doing so,
and get any result we want;
• There was really no need to do this study. We could have predicted the outcomes;
• I will not give TCVs to my grandson until I find out what is going on here.
Another version of the study - after further manipulation – finds no association between TCVs and
autism, and no consistency across HMOs between TCVs and NDDs and speech delay.
The final version of the study concludes that “No consistent significant associations were found
between TCVs and neurodevelopmental outcomes,” and that the lack of consistency argues against
an association. In reviewing the study there are data points where children with higher

one mad dad (not verified) | 03/14/11 | 01:32 AM

Sorry, but if there are Thimerosal-free vaccines, then by what method did these children receive these shots? Or is this another history lesson?

Gerhard Adam | 03/14/11 | 04:15 AM

Gerhard,

One Mad Dad is right, and we, too, are living with autism caused by brain damage caused by a bad vaccine reaction following previous immune assaults--mostly thimerosal-containing vaccines. (Now watch Gerhard disappear, folks. So your kid has autism? Yawn.)

As far as thimerosal in most childhood vaccines, most (not all) of the thimerosal is out of most (not all) of the vaccines NOW, but there was still plenty of it on the shelves in 2002, 2004. . .whenever it got used up (remember, thimerosal-containing vaccines were never recalled). So you have tons of kids (roughly ages 7 and up) who were mightily affected by that. It's not exactly ancient history.

In addition, it remains in the flu shot, which lots of people get yearly, including pregnant women, and babies as young as six months. So a child can easily accumulate a toxic amount of mercury (still! now!) if their parents vaccinate faithfully, on schedule, including those recommended flu shots. And with all that mercury in their tiny bodies, the live MMR often proves to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. They go down shortly after that shot--lots of kids.

Additionally, environmental exposure to mercury is going up world-wide, as China joins the U.S. and other first-world countries in burning lots and lots of coal. Even according to the CDC, at least one in every six U.S. women of childbearing age now has a body burden of mercury that's high enough to "put a fetus at risk."

So, it's really simple.

If you and yours have escaped it so far--great.

Keep on vaccinating all of them right on schedule. Question nothing. Good luck!

Terri Lewis (not verified) | 05/15/11 | 10:14 AM

What you fail to grasp is that if you're alleging that thimerosal was the cause of autism AND it was removed (even in recent years), then we should be seeing a drop in autism, not an increase. However that isn't the case. You can dress it up with all kinds of other excuses, but at the end of the day, there is no demonstrable relationship given.

You can refer to 2002 or 2004 or even 2009, but once it is removed there must be a reduction in autism cases if your allegation is true. Even without examining the data that fails to establish a link, just gross level incidences would show the relationship, if one existed.

Now watch Gerhard disappear, folks. So your kid has autism?

Sorry, but just because your "kid has autism" doesn't provide you with automatic credibility. I'm personally tired of people using that as a lever to bully their way into making non-scientific claims.

So a child can easily accumulate a toxic amount of mercury...

Based on what? Your simple inability to differentiate the types of mercury toxicity makes your statement suspect.

These results suggest that there are differences in the way that thimerosal and methyl mercury are distributed, metabolized, and excreted. Thimerosal appears to be removed from the blood and body more rapidly than methyl mercury. NIAID is sponsoring a follow-up study with larger numbers of infants in Buenos Aires where thimerosal-containing vaccines are still administered to children.
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#tox

Gerhard Adam | 05/15/11 | 13:15 PM

One at a time, and this is the last of it from me (because it's pretty obvious what's going on here):

These things can lead to early brain damage during crucial developmental windows:

Vaccines, mercury (thimerosal or otherwise, such as airborne mercury from coal-burning power plants--which has increased exponentially in the last 10 or 20 years), other toxins (pesticides, for one) and (as one other example) the rubella virus during pregnancy can all lead to brain damage, nervous system damage, immune damage, and autism. A live virus vaccine, such as the MMR, can do a lot of damage in a child (or an adult) with an already weakened or abnormal immune system. Wish I had known how weak my child was in that way.

Any number of environmental factors, combined with fairly common (but not universal) gene patterns can and often will lead to autism. It's a matter of a specific type of damage to the brain during crucial, early periods of development.

Like smoking leads to lung cancer. The rate of smoking has dropped, and there are still plenty of people getting lung cancer. Why? Because smoking isn't the only thing that causes lung cancer, but if you smoke, you are at much greater risk of getting lung cancer--it's a risk factor that's highly correlated to lung cancer. You might also smoke like a chimney and never get lung cancer.

And it's complicated further than that: How long did you smoke? How heavily? At what ages?

<>

Of course not.

My only point here was to suggest that you have no interest in autism as such, only in defending the view that vaccines cannot cause it.

Even though we know that brain damage is a known side effect of vaccination (look it up on the CDC site listing adverse effects), and even though we know this is rarely reported, but often excused as pre-existing, genetic, or "something else."

My original point in mentioning my personal experience, as I said, is to imply that you have no interest in the disorder of autism; you only have an interest in defending the current and ever-changing vaccine schedule. Since I see no evidence of an interest in autism in any of your comments, not one, this seems a fair assumption. Contradict me here if you wish.

<>

Wrong. It's stored in body tissues for a very long period of time.

And yes, dental fillings (the old "silver amalgam" kind) are full of mercury too. Why is this not such an issue?

Well, not only have these fillings largely been replaced by white "composite" fillings, but I'm not under any pressure to get this type of mercury exposure. Whereas we're all under a lot of pressure to vaccinate our children, obviously.

I don't remember being asked a single question--ever--before I vaccinated any of my kids for anything.

Certain allergies, as you know, are a contraindication to certain vaccines, but this is a mere formality. How can we know if a newborn infant or a 2-month-old has allergies? We can't. We vaccinate anyway.

Should a 5-lb. newborn be vaccinated against Hep-B the same way a 7-lb. newborn should be?

Well, newborn babies shouldn't be vaccinated against Hep-B at all, unless you think the higher risk to the baby is outweighed by the benefit to other drug-using people--and others--most likely to contract Hepatitis B.

Gerhard, you are in way over your head.

Anyone who stumbles over here and wants some better information can turn to Age of Autism, Adventures in Autism, Put Children First, Generation Rescue, TACA (Talk About Curing Autism Now) or any number of other sites where parents are trying to heal their children from the symptoms we call "autism."

There may not be a silver bullet, and not everyone will get completely "well," anymore than you would get "completely well" if you were hit by a bus.

But healing is possible, even when a cure is not.

And if you're one of those with Asperger's or have a child with Asperger's who doesn't need to be cured of it--great! Sounds good! Hope we can get there. Different--I'm all for it. Really disabled--we're trying to relieve it.

Terri Lewis (not verified) | 05/15/11 | 14:27 PM

The likelihood of anyone stumbling over here and then thinking AoA would offer better information, well, that's probably a fairly limited number, Terri.
I would detail all the ways in which you've offered faulty information here, but it's just not worth the effort; if good information hasn't had an impact on you yet and you're back to supporting AoA as good information, that would be a waste of my time.

Gerhard is not the one in way over his head.

—

“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” --MLK, Jr.

Kim Wombles | 05/15/11 | 15:57 PM

Manufacturer safety data sheet [ MSDS ] Thimerosal is accumulative in the body,it targets the organs of the body
in particular the brain and the lining around the brain. Just what needs to be in a child's vaccine, to insure a high IQ
right.

Also, if you are exposed to Thimerosal, mercury poisoning is possible with any future exposures.

Eli Lilly's internal documents revealed that Lilly had learned of six people dieing of sub acute mercury poisoning, and hid it and lied yr's later saying that they knew of no adverse events. Concerning their product, Thimerosal.

The AAP when learning of Thimerosal being in children's vaccines, and it being 49.8% mercury by weight said this

AAP "this is accumulative in the body,we must find the best chelating agent and get with it" !

The AAP went to the Simpson wood meeting and heard this below that changed their minds to the point they were not only willing to hide the dangers of Thimerosal but to also help Ped's to fight to keep it in the states that were
going to ban it.

From the Simpson wood meeting transcripts, Dr. Brent was in charge and this is his words.

Dr. Brent: Page 229: “ If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were
caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would
support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with
any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true.

I guess that's the problem,the CDC cannot find any scientist with any integrity......

So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am
concerned.”

You know whats missing from this meeting? The concern for the children, & the fact that they had mercury poisoned
the very publics children that they were responsible to protect and serve.

one mad dad (not verified) | 05/15/11 | 14:45 PM

Sorry, but you're simply wrong.

There, ethyl mercury is rapidly converted to inorganic mercury (that is less toxic to the brain than ethyl or methyl mercury) and is excreted in the faeces with minimal accumulation in body tissues.1, 3-5 In addition, the time taken for elimination (known as the “half-life”) of ethyl mercury (6 days; 95% CI: 3-10 days) is substantially shorter than the half-life of methyl mercury (59 days; 95% CI 32-86 days). Methyl mercury is more potent and accumulates in the body tissues to a much greater extent than ethyl mercury.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/Publishing.nsf/content/A1ECFAA9C9857C11CA25776D000471C2/$File/ATAGI_Thio_statm%20_091009.pdf

You simply want to pick a variety of events, make indiscriminate allegations and weave a tale of corruption and conspiracy for no better reason than to harm children. The simple reality is that your entire diatribe is simply a hysterical response that bears no resemblance to anything factual nor remotely scientific.

Since your entire premise is based on thimerosal, so when it is removed you have to concoct a bigger conspiracy to create the impression that it hasn't actually been removed. But you've already established the fatal flaw, since your conditions preclude ever believing anything you hear and consequently there is no evidence that will ever be satisfactory to alter your beliefs. Therefore your comments are disingenuous since you clearly have no interest in finding out what actually causes autism, you only want to keep pushing a non-issue because it offers a convenient target to keep your conspiracy theory alive.

Of course, if that fails then we can blame the environment, government, corporations, or anyone else we happen to dislike because it helps avoid examining the real issues and causes. Whether you like it or not, there is no cause identified at this stage, although there are clearly many areas being explored with no definitive links in any particular direction. It is equally telling that you're willing to concede that there are no ethical scientists and everyone that is supposed to be working on autism is corrupt and conspiring to damage the health of your children and untold number of future generations. I guess that makes you the last honest person in the country.

The unfortunate reality is that the general public now feels that an uninformed opinion should be granted equal time with knowledgeable and experienced opinions. After all, everyone is supposedly entitled to their own opinion, and in today's environment apparently it's considered acceptable to also invent your own facts.

Gerhard Adam | 05/15/11 | 16:49 PM

Sorry, but you are simply wrong.

Several points on which you are incorrect:

1. The study you quote is faulty.

Even if it were correct, ethyl mercury is still toxic, at the amounts in which it was (and, to some extent, still is) present in vaccines. Period. To be more specific, it is more toxic to some individuals than others, but to enough individuals that some have been caused great harm. The one in a hundred may not matter to you, but it matters to anyone affected. Obviously. (See the better studies quoted above to learn more.)

2. You say, "You simply want to pick a variety of events, make indiscriminate allegations. . ."

Hogwash. I'm talking about mercury (both forms), pesticides (some of which contain--surprise!--mercury, and have, as a side note, also been linked to the mental deterioration of Parkinson's Disease) and other attacks on the immune system, which have a synergistic effect on the immune system. The immune system and the nervous system and the brain, as you know, are tightly linked together. An attack on one of these systems is likely to affect the other to a greater or lesser extent, as anyone with bowel disease and or depression and anxiety could likely confirm.

3. "Your entire premise is based on thimerosal." Oh, please.

Do try to keep up. You do understand, don't you, that a live virus vaccine--such as the MMR--when given to a person with either known or unknown immune issues--is a very dangerous vaccine? You do understand that, when given to the "wrong" individuals, it will--in some cases--cause brain damage and/or death, just as the actual measles can do?

At least keep the arguments straight, and then argue against what's actually said.

4. "Of course, if that fails then we can blame the environment, government, corporations, or anyone else we happen to dislike. . ."

No conspiracy is needed.

Just business as usual.

You do understand that business operates on the profit principle, right? Well, then. Given that--these things happen. Grow up. Ever hear of VIOXX? Or cigarettes? Or, I don't know. . .any product that was ever sold and then taken off the shelves as being unsafe?

In addition to being incorrect, I still see no reason for you to argue your "case," except that you wish, perhaps, to make sure everyone gets vaccinated with everything offered, whenever it's offered, and as many times as it happens to be offered.

That way, you can feel "safe." Because you are obviously afraid of people like me who ask questions and then eventually uncover some of the answers.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong on that last point.

And try to address the actual subjects here beyond thimerosal and "blame."

Do you have any theories as to what causes autism?

Do you care?

Do you personally know anyone suffering with autism? Or do you merely know people who "have autism"--as a kind of difference--rather than the kind that involves substantial disability, mental confusion, and susceptibility to other attacks on the immune system, and thus various related (or unrelated) physical illness?

Furthermore, if One Mad Dad and I are here, then there will be others.

You can block us from your site, but not from the real world.

Terri Lewis (not verified) | 05/15/11 | 17:41 PM

Do you have any theories as to what causes autism?

What possible values could my ideas have if I'm not a researcher active in autism? Is this were you get your ideas ... just hanging around and making up stories?

Do you care?

From this point on you stop caring about autism and start with the idea that having a child with autism entitles you to make up your own facts. In case you haven't noticed .... the possible causes of autism don't require that you know someone that has it. Whether I know someone, whether I have children of my own that have it, or whether it's something I've only heard about ... it has nothing to do with what might cause it. You are NOT entitled to your own facts regardless of your exposure to autism.

That way, you can feel "safe." Because you are obviously afraid of people like me who ask questions and then eventually uncover some of the answers.

Oh hardly. I'm certainly not afraid of people like you, but you can be quite annoying with your penchant for making things up and bolstering hysteria among less-informed people. In fact, I think that your position raises a serious question about how disruptive and potentially destructive your point of view is, since it does nothing to expand our knowledge about autism, but it does increase the risks to those that you manage to scare away from vaccines. So, it appears that it is your position that is engaged in fear-mongering ... not mine.

You do understand that business operates on the profit principle, right? Well, then. Given that--these things happen. Grow up. Ever hear of VIOXX? Or cigarettes? Or, I don't know. . .any product that was ever sold and then taken off the shelves as being unsafe?

Do you intentionally say such ridiculous things or do you just not notice? The mere fact that something unsafe is taken off the shelves undercuts your entire allegation that Thimerosal is in vaccines with the express purpose of bolstering corporate profits. You can't have it both ways.

Do try to keep up.

Sorry, but your shot-gun approach to rationalizing all kinds of irrelevancies doesn't make your case any stronger. In fact, you've demonstrated that you have absolutely no point in your argument beyond trying to knit together all manner of unrelated events to create a story.

The simple reality is that you're doing nothing expect advancing a collection of stories and rumors that are put together for the express purpose of allowing to focus your outrage on something you perceive as a common enemy. Of course, everyone is evil except the magical combination of individuals that think they're all on the same side. It doesn't matter that they don't actually have any useful information or haven't got evidence of anything beyond their own rumor-mongering ... but at least it makes you feel good. Well, go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back, because after all your rhetoric you've contributed absolutely nothing useful to the discussion about the causes of autism.

Gerhard Adam | 05/15/11 | 18:15 PM

Gerhard Adam, You could not be more wrong. Reason is, that this damage seen as Autism symptoms is tied to
the Mitochondria being damaged. Case in point, the Poling case. When you do the search to find what is most damaging to the Mitochondria, One finds two Toxins that are the culprits, 1st is Inorganic the next is MSG both of
which is in Vaccines.

According to an NIH study on Thimerosal by Burbacher on baby primates. 1st, Thimerosal Mercury crosses the Blood Brain Barrier easier than doe's the fish mercury. 2nd Thimerosal turns into inorganic mercury by two and
a half times that as does the fish mercury......

You are quoting a CDC propaganda study, that according to the Maker of Thimerosal does not match what they say
about the characteristics of their own product. You see Gerhard, the MSDS of Thimerosal says that Thimerosal
is Accumulative in the body. And here is where you are proven wrong, by your friends own words the maker of
Thimerosal "it targets the organs of the body, in particular the brain and the lining around the brain" So it leaves
the blood quicker, so it can target the organs of the body and the brain. WOW !! no wonder they don't want to admit
to this, it is sick ! and easily proven in a real world with any justice what so ever.

You see, people in high places would lose Billions to Trillions if they were to have to compensate those they poisoned the little children.

Many, could and should lose their pensions.

Others could and should go to prison.

For all who defend putting a known IQ lowering compound & neurol toxin in children's are all guilty of destroying
this once great Nation.

one mad dad (not verified) | 05/15/11 | 21:06 PM

You see, people in high places would lose Billions to Trillions if they were to have to compensate those they poisoned the little children.

You've completely descended into the delusional hell of conspiracy theories. You are clearly not rational and are obviously incapable of recognizing just how delusional your explanation is.

In effect, you claim to know what causes autism and that there is literally a worldwide conspiracy to destroy children's lives so that a few individuals can maximize their profits. You are truly a sad individual if you believe that.

Gerhard Adam | 05/15/11 | 21:23 PM

I'm a sad individual,and you are defending people who knowingly put a known IQ lowering neurl toxin in children's vaccines.

That's right,attack the person. Is that what they teach you in Shill school? when you have no answers. Go on the Attack !!!

How about disproving what I said, instead of attacking me.

The CDC Dir. own words were when admitting that vaccines can cause Autism like symptoms. The Dir. words }

If a child gets some vaccines, and spikes a fever and had other complications and is predisposed to a mitochondria
disorder. It can certainly set off some damage, and some of that damage could be symptoms that could be considered characteristic of Autism. The CDC was told that it is not a rare disorder as she has said in fact they said 1 in 50 may have the nuclear DNA for Mitochondria Disorders. That is 2 % of the population, were at 1 percent now we have another 1 percent to go. Lucky us, watch her lie to the public here. It's quite funny watching her speak in circles lying all the way through this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh-nkD5LSIg&NR=1

one mad dad (not verified) | 05/16/11 | 01:01 AM

I'm not attacking you, but I certainly won't continue a discussion with someone that has such a tenuous hold on reality.

Gerhard Adam | 05/16/11 | 01:06 AM

As I have read many vaccine debates touting "science" is on their side, the voices that are silenced in almost all of these debates are those of vaccine injured children. Mothers and Fathers report side effects and changes in development in their children and are ignored or even blamed. If not the parents who will you listen too? When my kids were vaccinated I never sent them home with the nurse for observation. As a parent it is my duty to observe anything and everything possible and make reports to the proper "educated" people.

You say history has no baring on the present. Well in 2003 my little boy was being vaccinated right on schedule because I was a 'good parent'. He was full term no interventions or medications during his birth. I've always been a 'health nut'. All the test required by law came back as he was 100% healthy and ready for the real world.

He had minor reactions to his first set. Was not alarmed he seemed to pull thru fine. So the next set. I took him home His fever soared >105*. He screamed for hrs and anyone who has witnessed this in their own child knows exactly what I mean by a blood curdeling scream. I contacted his NP. She said this was normal give him tylenol. Then he quit eating. Then he became limp. I called the NP again. 'He's tired from the screaming let him sleep'. I put him down And couldn't take my eye off him because the 'psuedo science' of mother's intuintion told me not to. He slept and then quit breathing. I tried to wake him and could not. 911 was there in minutes even tho it seemed like hrs. He was at the hospital in the next 5 minutes what also seemed like hrs. And for 45 min they tried to get him to breath again and were injecting his little body with more and more chemicals. His heart stopped and his eyes dialated. He was pronounce dead 17.5 hrs after his 4mo boosters. The autopsy listed brain swelling in the report. I asked if it was the vaccines. The ME said vaccines are safe they could not have done this. He was thrown in the SIDS bin.

Fast forward to 2006. My little girl was born. After some studying. And consulting with her pediatrician we decided to delay and separate her vaccines. Because I was a 'good parent' I thought anything to protect her. right? 2008 at 20 mo she recieved DTaP(3). Again I took her home her fever soared just like her brothers she began vomiting became limp and dehydrated. I rushed her to the pediatrician who managed to squeeze some urine from her. He said to feed her ice chips and if she does not void on her own by the evening to take her to the hospital. Well she did not. When at the hospital, he told us we were over reacting. She stayed on the hospital drip for 36 hrs before she finally voided. And is the most toxic smell I have ever encountered. It didn't smell anything like what they were putting in her. It was another 3 days before she began to eat again. Another 2 wks before she could walk again. Another 3 months for her relearn her words and another 10 mo before she made eye contact again.

So now in the present we have 2 more children that are unvaccinated. Without any answers to why this happens to my kids they want to finish my daughters and start vaccinating my other 2. Now because I am a 'good parent' They will not be getting vaccinated. I am called one of those moms,compared to Jenny, told over and over again that Wakefield's paper has been reteracted. I've been told I should lose custody of my kids because I 'refuse' to vaccinate. It is no longer a choice for us. When you know something is hurting your kids it is natural to keep them away from it. It would be criminal to subject my children to it again and agian. Ironically I've been told my kids will die with out vaccines. The pediatrician referred me to the CDC and they referred me back to the pediatrician. No blood work No scratch test for allergies has ever been done. nothing.

Just like many parents I was brushed off. It is easy to be cruel to someone behind a computer screen of even over the phone. In real life I have not met that challenge. What has happened is doctors and nurses can no longer look me in the eye when it comes to their safety speach. They know what happened to my kids. I was told this only happens to 2% of children in the US. 2 out of 2 for us is 100%. I hate to think what mothers in developing countries are going thru when for the 'greater good' their children are being subjected to this practice. Where do they go when events like this start happening to them?

you want to call people like us 'anti-vaxxers' but we tried to to vaccinate. You blame mis-information on anti-vaxxers when there is just as much if not more mis-information from the pro-vaxxers. until protect the vax at all cost people start acknowledging that some people a hurt and even killed by vaccines then this debate will never end. I find the most passionate anti-vaxxers are those who have experienced the dark side of vaccines and have been silenced.

vaxfree (not verified) | 08/17/11 | 17:15 PM

As I have read many vaccine debates touting "science" is on their side, the voices that are silenced in almost all of these debates are those of vaccine injured children.

How can a child have a constructive insight into how they got autism? Do muscular dystrophy patients have a great insight into the causes of MD simply because they have it?

You basically seem to need a platform to talk about yourself.

Hank Campbell | 08/17/11 | 17:20 PM

So, what is your point? Are you advocating that everyone should avoid vaccines?

Gerhard Adam | 08/17/11 | 17:28 PM

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