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    Stop Whining: The World Has More Wealth And More Freedom Than Ever
    By Hank Campbell | August 10th 2012 05:00 AM | 40 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Hank

    I'm the founder of Science 2.0® and co-author of "Science Left Behind".

    A wise man once said Darwin had the greatest idea anyone...

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    It's easy to get depressed reading the criticisms of self-loathing types who demand a zero-defects culture.  If some weirdo neuroscience PhD student shoots up a movie theater, well, that is reason for a whole bunch of people to want to run out and ban neuroscience.

    And if you read anti-science people, the world is a scarier place than it was when we were huddled in caves, starving.  We have to ban Big Gulps and goldfish and golf and genetically modified food and vaccines; everything but triclosan, which actually may be bad for you. In their world, everyone in science is out to kill us, despite the fact that they have allowed more of us to live better and longer than ever.

    Likewise, not everyone can be free.  President Obama would love to do some nation-building and impose democracy in various sovereign nations who are no threat to anyone outside their own borders but we determined that was bad when George W. Bush did it, so it can't be good when a Democrat does it, that would be hypocrisy, right? Sorry Egypt, Libya and Syria, you'll have to wait until a Republican gets back in office and then we'll kick you in the ass and get you a real vote.

    Fraser Nelson at The Telegraph is downright giddy with nationalism these days too.  Before the Olympics, he was probably like everyone else in England - pissed off, sarcastic, critical, skeptical.  All it took was Mitt Romney saying what everyone in London was saying about how unprepared they were and they were suddenly all patriotic.  That's the way it is, right?  We can criticize ourselves, and each other, but you'd better not do it. I mean, I can make fun of a psychologist who runs around claiming that white people are implicitly racist, but when a bunch of skinheads try to do it, I have to defend the guy.

    It took the Olympics to help Fraser realize that the world is a pretty good place and Britain is part of the reason why.  He's not alone, it's been a tradition to wish fondly for the good old days since we first painted on cave walls - those savages were not painting about the future, they were painting about an animal they killed when they were kids.
    The idea that the world is going to hell has been hard-wired into the psyche of most political leaders throughout recorded history. Archbishop Wulfstan of York declared in 1014 that “the world is in a rush and is now getting close to its end”.
    52 years after he wrote that England got really weird but does anyone now contend King Harald should have won that war instead of William?  No, but complaining about how bad the world has gotten is big business and William the Conqueror never had to contend with that; environmental activism is a $7 billion a year industry in the United States, and they exist to tell you how much you suck and are a cancer on the planet. 

    Fraser notes one thing smelly protesters have also complained about a lot; money.  Yes, more of it is bad, to the world's 1% who live in developed nations and can afford to spend their time protesting, that is. The Millennium Development Goals of 2000 set out a bold vision for the world to get better - it wanted to see the proportion of the world’s population living on a dollar a day cut in half by 2015.   Well, it happened - 7 years early.  

    What do self-loathing types in western countries complain about in the face of such good news?  Globalization, of course.

    It's a good piece. Give it a read: Ignore the prophets of doom – this is a golden age for the world by Fraser Nelson, The Telegraph

    Comments

    MikeCrow
    I've long thought that we could make the world better by exporting capitalism (warts and all) to the poor parts of the world. Sure it starts out looking like we're exploiting them, but a funny thing happens, the few dollars they get paid is a lot of money for them, they can start to make a better life, buy some of the things their countrymen make, gasoline on a smoldering tinderbox.

    Others worry that they're getting rich, they're taking our money, maybe when money was gold, Gold is limited, there's only so much in the ground, but money is paper, it does grow on trees. We do have to have restraint and not print too much, but if you think of it as a proxy for human work to be traded for goods, and that the population is growing, that more work gets done, maybe there's enough riches for everyone to live well. We can all aspire to be like Bill.

    John Stossle and the Queen seem to be in tune, governments don't do things, people do. (And yes Gerhard, Governments help, maybe slightly more than they hinder ;) )
    Never is a long time.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Mi Cro, you are a moron!
    Make love not war
    MikeCrow
    From you, I'll take that as a compliment.
    Never is a long time.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    I've long thought that we could make the world better by exporting capitalism (warts and all) to the poor parts of the world. Sure it starts out looking like we're exploiting them, but a funny thing happens, the few dollars they get paid is a lot of money for them, they can start to make a better life, buy some of the things their countrymen make, gasoline on a smoldering tinderbox.
    Others worry that they're getting rich, they're taking our money, maybe when money was gold, Gold is limited, there's only so much in the ground, but money is paper, it does grow on trees. 
    Sorry Mi Cro, that comment from me was over the top, I should never comment here when I've had a glass of wine, which isn't very often these days. Its just that I get so mad when I think of how just Australia's aborigines who had the nearest thing to an egalitarian, Marxist society, with effective herbal birth control and medicines, living in relative harmony with each other and their undomesticated native animals and environment that they respected so much, were almost wiped out by us capitalistic invaders who chopped down their rainforests and their men, raped their women, polluted their water, stole their land and their children, degraded their soil, and even at one time put a dollar price on their scalps. 

    There were well over a million aborigines in Australia when we arrived not that long ago and now there are less than 1000 full blooded Aborigines registered as entitled to make land title claims. Where is the justice in that and how did capitalism make the world better for these 'poor' people?
    Make love not war
    MikeCrow
    The "Capitalistic" invaders sound more like murders, rapists and thieves. The fact that they profited from their crimes, doesn't really make them capitalists.

    As for Marxist societies being all righteous, Marx reportedly killed near 100 million people creating his. That's not to say the aborigines did or did not have a violent past, just that it isn't really Marxism or Capitalism, it's the people behind them.

    The US has some of the same checkered past, though I did see an interview with a Sioux(Comanche?) Indian Chief who said we shouldn't feel too bad, as the Indians gave as good as they got, but they were just the side that lost.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    ...Marx reportedly killed near 100 million people creating his.
    Say what?  Come on .... even the most biased individual wouldn't believe such a number.

    More importantly, Marx didn't do any such thing.  He wrote a book and he was an economist.  So unless you want to blame Adam Smith for Bernie Madoff, let's be reasonable.
    MikeCrow
    You are absolutely correct, I butchered that.

    Marx, did none of the killing, but others did do a lot of killing based on (a perversion of?) his ideas.
    But still my point is still accurate, capitalist didn't kill the aborigines, thugs did.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    ... and they did it for the same reason that Marxists killed their people;  economic gain.

    These weren't just some arbitrary criminal class.  They did it for the same reasons that early settlers took land from the Native Americans here.  They imposed their English law, took what they wanted, and deported those that resisted.  It was all about economics, because these were individuals that were either wealthy and transformed themselves in the states, or they were people that couldn't own land in Europe so they took in from the people here.

    MikeCrow
    And Vikings pillaged, and Pirates plundered, raping and killing along the way. They all did it for riches, Do you have some point?
    Did the capitalists kill more than the marxists? Are you going to condemn one type of economy while ignoring the others?

    I still think giving poor people a job, with an the opportunity of advancement is better than giving them jobs with no opportunities for improvement.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    Again ... pirates were a criminal class, so that's not entirely true.

    I didn't condemn any economy because of it's history of killing.  However, this is generally employed to argue about Marxism, and my point is that Capitalism does the same thing.  So, there's no historical basis for behaving as if Capitalism is some a more pristine form of greed.
    I still think giving poor people a job, with an the opportunity of advancement is better than giving them jobs with no opportunities for improvement.
    While I think I know how you intended it, I find this statement patronizing.  Despite the fact that anytime government largesse is mentioned, then it is a "bad" thing, and yet you have no problem in considering that some "upper class" of individuals "gives" something to the poorer classes.

    I'm not trying to specifically call you out on it, but the fact is that this is little more than the traditional view held by the aristocracy, where they were the privileged few that would help the "poor" lower classes, because they were incapable of helping themselves.

    Ironically, I find this view directly aligned to the view held by most corporations and CEOs.  They are doing people a "favor". 
    MikeCrow
    And you don't think Government largesse is patronizing? Here's since "you" have no skill or value to society, let me just give you money.

    Ironically, ignoring that the US government has done just about everything it can to prevent people from starting their own business, it is still something poor people can attempt to improve their station in life, no Aristocrats required. All that all of these regulations do, is prevent anything except large corporations from competing in the market. Sure they'll try to block what they can, but they aren't the ones making all of the laws preventing competition. I know you think that corporations run the government, yet you want to give the government more money because they employ it wisely?
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    I never claimed the government wasn't patronizing, so you'll get no quarrel from me there.
    I know you think that corporations run the government...
    Yes, because that's what it means when corporations get to write legislation.  Do you think the bankruptcy laws were written to help the consumers?  or do you think they were written by the credit card companies?

    Between writing legislation and lobbyists, I am confident that we have the best government that money can buy.

    BTW, I never suggested giving the government more money.  However, I notice that those that oppose taxes, only seem to oppose them for themselves.  They have no trouble raising them on the middle class or complaining how the poor don't pay their share.

    So, while the rich get away with paying less taxes than the rest of us, we have the dubious privilege of listening to them whine about their hardships.  Yes ... I find it all quite patronizing.
    MikeCrow
    So, while the rich get away with paying less taxes than the rest of us

    Are you kidding? If you haven't been paying attention, we have a progressive income tax, they pay more on income(I paid more, not some random "they"), they also get double taxed on any returns from investments because they were taxed on the money they invested when it was income.

    You can defer paying taxes by not taking your income, you get to deduct your tax rate (say 30%) of any business expenses, you can even take your income in another country(most of which have their own taxes), but you still have to pay taxes on it if you bring it back the the States if you want to spend it.

    Oh, and you can cheat, but that's already against the law.

    Also, I'm far below the $250,000/year level, so I'm not defending myself. I do find it curious how it's all about Million and Billionaires, but it's going to be applied to people making $250k/yr.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    ...we have a progressive income tax...
    Yes, which is precisely why Mitt Romney paid 14% in taxes.  They don't get double taxed, and often don't even get single taxed, because they have the money to have the accountants to ensure that doesn't happen.
    I do find it curious how it's all about Million and Billionaires, but it's going to be applied to people making $250k/yr.
    Well, that's my complaint.  The million and billionaires are the ones ensuring that the law doesn't touch them.  Welcome to the ranks of the wealthy [at least in their eyes].
    MikeCrow
    He paid 14% because it was all capital gains, which gets double taxed.

    Romney's 14% tax rate

    It's President Obama who keeps talking about Millionaires and Billionaires, and only increasing taxes if you make $250,000. I think the 1% already pay their fair share.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    Where do you get that capital gains is double taxed?  Perhaps I should be more specific and ask that you show me taxes that aren't doubles?  Why differentiate capital gains?

    I also like the way the Romney 14% tax is being bandied about.  Oh, it's not really lower because it was all dividends and capital gains.  However, if we include payroll taxes then it is lower.

    News flash!! .. Most Americans don't have the kind of money where they can differentiate their income in that fashion, so let's not be coy.  When you make so much money that you don't even have to declare income, then it's a pretty disingenuous argument to claim that you're right there with the average worker.

    ... and why does he only pay 14% on capital gains?  Oh yeah, because those poor rich people couldn't make it if the capital gains tax didn't come down.  That was money that was needed to create jobs and drive the economy .... funny how that last part never materialized.

    I think the $250,000 level is too low and should be raised.

    As for the 1% paying their "fair share"?  Sorry, but over the years I've watched my taxes go up and up while everyone that was making millions [often at taxpayer expense] was getting more and more breaks.  My sympathy for them has run out. 

    MikeCrow
    Your income is taxed when you accept it. If you have some left over and invest your hard earned income, any gains you make (which you have no guarantees of) are taxed again. Why they're different is that your investments can lose money. And if they do, you're limited to deducting ~$3,000 per year against specific long or short term gains.

    Payroll taxes are a different kind of tax. If you want to add up all taxes Romney paid, I'm going to guess he paid an even higher %. Nothing coy about it. Do the people who pay no federal income tax point that out? Most people start out earning income, and they have to pay income taxes. Now if you don't spend all your income, you can start to invest the remaining income. And if you made a lot of income compared to your average worker, you also paid a higher tax rate. Besides those payroll taxes go to your SS and Medicare. Think of them as forced retirement savings, so yes they are different.
    Oh yeah, because those poor rich people couldn't make it if the capital gains tax didn't come down.  That was money that was needed to create jobs and drive the economy .... funny how that last part never materialized.
    Speaking of being coy, this is the biggest pile I've read in a while, either that or you lack even a basic knowledge of the capital markets. When you buy stocks, that money is used by the company to fund their business, if you take it all away, they have less operating capital, which means fewer jobs, buying less equipment (fewer jobs at their suppliers), less money to spend on facilities (fewer construction jobs), etc, etc. if you think it didn't materialize, you're not looking.

    The reason your taxes are going up is because the government keeps spending more than they should, when the top 1% already pay 38% of all taxes, the top 5% pay over 50% of all taxes, and the bottom 48 or so % pay no income tax, I think they pay their share.


     
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    I love how you rationalize this stuff.  First, Romney did NOT pay more.  That was his entire tax return, 14%.  He declared no income.

    While you may think that payroll taxes are somehow different, then you're simply playing favorites that apparently some taxes are OK and others aren't.  So, it is foolishness to complain about your money being taxes twice because that routinely happens to every working individual in this country.  We get taxed on our payroll, then we get taxed for what we buy, then we get taxed for gasoline, etc. etc. etc.   Everyone of those is a "second" tax.  So what?
    Besides those payroll taxes go to your SS and Medicare. Think of them as forced retirement savings, so yes they are different.
    No, they don't.  They go to pay for those that are currently receiving Social Security and Medicare.  There is absolutely no guarantee that those paying will ever receive.

    What jobs materialized?  What funds did corporations get with all these gains?  We already know they didn't, which is precisely why people get taxed on it.  They get taxed when they take their money out;  not when they invest it.  So the capital gains tax is never about investment.

    No one has ever been taxed for investing money.  No one has ever been taxed on the expenses to run a business.  All of those are deductible and not subject to taxation.  However, when the money is taken back out of the business and becomes personal income then it is subject to income taxes, dividends, or capital gains.  It is NOT doing anything to contribute to business at that point.
    In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth
    MikeCrow
    I love how you rationalize stuff.

    Capital gains is not income, even according to the irs, it's taxed differently to encourage people to invest their money which helps businesses fund jobs and equipment. Most people when they get their capital gains, either spend the money (which goes into the economy creating jobs), or they reinvest their money (which helps fund jobs and business growth). Now, you know this, I know you do, but ranking on it just goes alone with your hatred of corporations. I'm sure there's a good story why, but you've kept that to yourself, so fine.

    Payroll taxes, are also not income taxes.

    What jobs materialized?  What funds did corporations get with all these gains?  We already know they didn't, which is precisely why people get taxed on it.  They get taxed when they take their money out;  not when they invest it.  So the capital gains tax is never about investment.

    No one has ever been taxed for investing money.  No one has ever been taxed on the expenses to run a business.  All of those are deductible and not subject to taxation.  However, when the money is taken back out of the business and becomes personal income then it is subject to income taxes, dividends, or capital gains.  It is NOT doing anything to contribute to business at that point.

    If this makes you feel any better, but it doesn't does it. And you know it's wrong or you really are deluded.

    In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth

    So what, do you think that because they have stuff you can't? The pie is not a fixed size, go create something, make the pie get bigger. Bill Gates grew the pie, by $50-$100 billion dollars, Facebook grew the pie, Oracle grew the pie, Dell grew the pie. Silicon Valley grew the pie. Quit whining, if you want your share, earn it.

    But I'll tell you what, you start earning it, and you get a feel for the blood sucking government with their hand in your wallet, you might decide you don't like it.
    Wait, I know, that'll just give you more reasons to complain that someone who'd paying $3 mill a year in taxes isn't paying his fair share.
    Never is a long time.
    MikeCrow
    Sorry, but over the years I've watched my taxes go up and up

    When did this happen? Because income tax rates have either gone down, or if they did go up, they went up less than the higher brackets.
    Never is a long time.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The US has some of the same checkered past, though I did see an interview with a Sioux(Comanche?) Indian Chief who said we shouldn't feel too bad, as the Indians gave as good as they got, but they were just the side that lost. 
    Well the aborigines of Australia didn't give as good as they got. They did not belong to a kingdom with one king, that could quickly rally united armies in defence against the invaders, they belonged to separately run clans and each clan had its own clan chiefs and these clan chiefs and their clans interacted with each other according to very complex and well evolved rules of chivalry passed down for generations and originating from their very spiritual 'dreamtime'.

    Men would fight to protect their honour or their clan's honour, there were squabbles between clans that would also be resolved with organised fights between their best warriors to resolve which clan was the winner and which was the loser, the women and children would watch on in complete safety. What they couldn't fight were land grabbing, immoral, capitalistic, opportunists who did not appear to have any code of chivalry that in any way applied to the aborigines. 

    The invaders poisoned their food and deliberately gave them blankets infected with scabs from diseases that the aborigines had no resistance to. They saw aborigines as no better than animals simply because they lived in harmony with their land and didn't fence, plunder and destroy it to make a quick buck. They declared Australia an uninhabited 'Terra Nullus' and gave no human rights at all to the aborigines who were healthy and rich in every way when they arrived and the capitalism that oppressed them then made them 'poor' in every way. 

    The capitalistic invaders chopped down their forests, fenced their land and then killed any aborigines who mistakenly trespassed on their own former land or killed their sheep or cattle for food, believing as they always had that these animals on their heritage lands were there still available to be hunted. The aborigines could not understand these dishonorable, unchivalrous people and would try to avoid them but the land grab over the following decades and then centuries eventually left them with nothing but unfarmable desert, until that was also then identified as a massive source of minerals resources for capitalistic mining to exploit. 

    As I said earlier there were well over a million aborigines living in harmony with each other and the land and the indigenous flora and fauna, they saw themselves not as land owners but as the custodians of the land and its creatures. Every animal was protected by a clan made up of people from many clans that belonged to that animal totem, assigned to them by their mothers during their pregnancy and the sacred spots for these animals could only be visited and cared for by people from that animal clan, no one else. The whole system worked beautifully and there is a lot that we could probably learn from it, with regard to environmental and animal conservation. 

    There was no anthropogenic global warming, land degradation and water pollution or massive animal and plant extinctions under this ancient, well proven and tried harmonious indigenous system, as is currently the case under growing, unchecked, global world capitalism currently hurtling  headlong towards inevitable, global disaster for everyone and everything.

    These are the disastrous effects of raw, unfettered, capitalistic opportunism, though I must say what happened in Australia was even worse than in many other invaded and conquered countries and to many indigenous people because it was pure unadulterated genocide of people that they regarded as sub-human animals, conducted by these invaders who were simply following their own laws based upon centuries of imperialistic, capitalistic, class based, opportunistic, religious, white supremacy. What they found in Australia was the nearest thing to practising, fully functional Marxism that the world has ever seen, then they annihilated it, so at least let's recognise that now.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    There's always a balancing act to contend with.  However, there are far too many people that want to be cheerleaders instead of considering the issues and their remedies.  Despite the complaints of governmental interference, it is also useful to remember that many of the laws are a direct result of abuses perpetrated by individuals and businesses too.

    I don't know about making the world better.  I do know that too many of the ideas around capitalism are fantasies.  They are not based on any actual sense of economics, but rather on another special definition of exploitation.  Perhaps this is the "best" system currently available, but that doesn't mean it's the only system available.

    I'm sure similar arguments were made when feudalism began to transform, and capitalism is no different.  The basis and origins of capitalism no longer exist.  In fact, in some respects capitalism is becoming dangerous.  Too much money and power is becoming concentrated which is affecting one of our other main institutions; democracy.

    As a result, some of the most significant efforts that have occurred to try and provide freedom and equality for members of society are being manipulated and supplanted by agendas instigated by individual organizations that have never been elected or chosen by the people and yet are capable of setting the tone/conditions under which people will live.

    This is producing a natural conflict between the objectives of the organizations [i.e. capitalism] and the societies they operate in [politics].

    It is hard to understand what benefit is provided by large multi-national corporations.  This isn't to say that size is not necessary for some endeavors, but that doesn't require the magnitude we often see today.  We invariably hear the mantra about "cheap goods", but that isn't what economics is about.  In fact, it is decidedly an anti-free market sentiment, since the purpose of the "free market" is not to provide cheap goods, but rather to reflect the natural ebbs and flows of actual costs so that rational economics choices occur.  By the combination of corporate influences in politics and individual's striving for advantage in this system, it is little wonder that the "benefits" of capitalism are fading. 

    So when one hears about how successful individuals are and how "deserving" they are, then we already know that the economic point has been lost.  Just like the blood in our bodies must flow equally to all the cells and organs, so does money have to flow in a society to sustain economic life.  When such economic control becomes concentrated in the hands of a few, then growth will cease, and economic death will follow.

    Perhaps there's nothing that can be done to prevent that, but eventually the current system will transform again.  It won't collapse in some chaotic heap, but it will be a transformation and will be the most radical for those with the most advantage under the current system.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    OMG Gerhard you are brilliant, can we start a fan club for you maybe, not just Gerhard's hat day?
    Make love not war
    MikeCrow
    Gerhard, your anti-corporation (?) hatred (that is what it is, right?) blinds you (or at least leaves you with welding glasses on).

    As you point out, it is the "best" system, and of course it's not the only one, but why would you want to use an inferior system?
    Here's how I see it:
    In Communism, the leaders and favored people live like kings, everyone else lives somewhere between poverty and poor. But unless you become one of the favored people, your lot in life is fixed.
    In Socialism, the leaders and favored people live like kings, everyone else lives somewhere between poverty and middle class. You might be able to work your way up, but the high tax rates limit upward mobility.
    In Capitalism, you have the same leaders, and favored people, plus you add the rich to those who live like kings. You still have the people living in poverty to middle class, but if you work hard, increase your value in the market, and get a little bit of luck, you can work your way from poverty to being rich. And you don't have to do it by stepping on people. And the best part is you get everything you need to do this for free. But, the US is becoming more Socialist, and the constant cry for more taxes will only make things less free.......

    Now I know this will probably leave you (and Helen) sputtering at what an idiot I am to think this, how if it does happen it's only (to reference a popular presidential phrase) because of some teacher, or having a road to drive on, someones back with a knife stuck in it, only happens to a few, etc, but moving up does happen, it happened to me, and I know others it happened to.

    The biggest impediment to doing well in the US is the person looking back at you in the mirror, and the government taking their "fair" share.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    Mike

    You're still thinking there are only a few systems, so there's no purpose served by bringing out socialism or communism.  Just like capitalism, one can easily argue that they are all imperfect implementations, so there's not much point in arguing about their inadequacies.  I get that.

    However, I find it interesting that you bring up the fact that the U.S. is becoming more socialist.  It is doing so only because that's the inevitable consequence of our current economic path.  Nothing is more "communist" than a corporation because it usurps all the resources for itself.  It is decidedly anti-free market and stifles competition.

    I think your perspective on what people can achieve is quite optimistic, because it effectively blames the "victim" for their own inadequacies rather than considering that the system consists of a "deck" that is "stacked against them".  Some will succeed, but they are more the exceptions than the rule.  You cannot claim that the average American is lazy and that they are quite content to sacrifice thirty or forty years of their lives so that they can live on a pension.  Yet, that is the inevitable outcome of a system that protects those with the highest pool of resources.  As I said, it stifles competition and reduces the opportunities available to individuals.

    In many ways, even the serfs in a feudal system had more freedom and flexibility than many employees have today.  A typical employee enjoys few freedoms and protections afforded by their society, because corporations are capable of making their own rules and enforcing them with the "club" of employment and economics.

    What I'm looking for is a "post-corporate" economic system that will return to its more basic roots and again allow and encourage more forms of entrepreneurship and eliminate this consolidation of power.  Corporations bring out the worst in human beings, which is readily apparent to how they can participate in all manner of injustices, corruption, and even unpatriotic actions ... all with the justification that they are only trying to make a profit.

    Obviously not all corporations fit into these categories, but it is significant enough to where the majority of the problems faced in our society is because we have to cajole and entice corporations to do what is right and necessary.  These are issues that would be naturally taken care of if the economic niches weren't being blockaded and exploitation by entrepreneurs were encouraged.

    There is no competition in any of the major areas of production any more.  There is simple profiteering.
    MikeCrow
    Some will succeed, but they are more the exceptions than the rule.  You cannot claim that the average American is lazy and that they are quite content to sacrifice thirty or forty years of their lives so that they can live on a pension.  Yet, that is the inevitable outcome of a system that protects those with the highest pool of resources.  As I said, it stifles competition and reduces the opportunities available to individuals.

    I think we need to agree to disagree on much of this.
    I think many Americans refuse to use their minds, they are to lazy to be bothered. No matter how hard you work shoveling ditches, if you don't put an effort into learning how to run the business, you're going to be stuck shoveling. I know lots of people who don't bother, and when they do decide to learn something, they pick stupid things to get degrees in.
    In general, I don't see there being a lot of protection going on, there are lots of examples of leading corporations failing, being replaced by upstarts. Some corporations have more capital, and some industries require more capital, but I've worked for 3 different start ups, that came out of garages, and bedrooms, and I got equity for working there, I know a guy who's started a medical device company (and recently achieved approval), both Dell and Gates did okay (and yes I know Bill had a reasonable amount of help), but DEC went out of business, IBM almost did, most of the main frame vendors are making main frames if they're even still in business.

    There's lot of encouragement to development niches, but you do have to bring equal or more value. And manufacturing is capital intensive, and you have to bring a better value than people how have years of experience and all of the equipment they need. But cheap manufacturing and design tools allows a smart guy to bring his next big ideal to market for less money, but even this isn't cheap, but it can make you wealthy.

    If you haven't watched the (stupid)Joan Rivers show about people becoming wealthy, you should, it's shocking how some of the stupidest(good) ideas made them wealthy.
    Never is a long time.
    Gerhard Adam
    ...but DEC went out of business...
    This is the problem I have with such terminology and sentiment.  DEC was acquired by Compaq.  It's sort of like claiming I worked for EDS and lost my job because IBM took over and hired me instead.  No exactly the same thing as those people that actually lose their jobs.

    The reason why this is problematic is that most of these corporations never actually go out of business.  Since they don't actually have a physical existence, they are acquired and simply morph into a different entity.  So, while you can argue that they [whatever the legal piece of paper is that defines them] no longer "exist", in a practical sense, nothing of the sort actually  happened.  The products, the markets, and everything that defined them was simply transferred to another corporation.  That's almost like arguing that subsidiaries represent separate competitive businesses.
    Hank
    Newsweek got sold for a dollar so clearly they did not go out of business and print publishing remains wildly profitable and everyone still has their jobs?
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    MikeCrow
    DEC was going out of business, Compaq bought their remains at a fire sale. Some of the people had market value in compaq, they got to keep their job, everyone else had to find new work.
    You can no longer buy a new Vax.
    Never is a long time.
    'You can no longer buy a new Vax.' unfortunately, yes, never is a long time!

    Gerhard Adam
    Yes, I understand.  But other than the employees, define for me what it means for a corporation to "go out of business"?  Since they don't have a physical existence to begin with, and the individuals that made the deal for the purchase undoubtedly profited handsomely from it, the only people that lost were those that always lose.  The employees.

    In other words, every time a corporation goes "out of business", it generally means that the management is simply being paid off and replaced, while employees lose.  It is the only situation whereby someone that may actually be responsible for destroying the business can profit by that.

    That's what was going on with your IBM example earlier.  IBM wasn't in danger of going out of business.  IBM was in danger of committing suicide because they had an idiot at the helm.
    "but if you work hard"
    I've done that. in fact, still doing it. Nothing.

    "and get a little bit of luck"
    It's 90% luck and 10% ability to use it nowadays. Hard work has nothing to do with it.

    "the government taking their "fair" share"

    The government has to provide policing, security, roads, basic needs (so that people don't starve or go completely homeless), response to disasters and, ideally - also education and health care. It all takes money and they have to comne from somewhere. People who earn less than 50K can barely afford pay taxes. So they should be relieved of taxation completely. Corporations and businesses are non-physical entities - they shouldn't pay taxes either, since they put all of the taxes back on their customers anyway. But individuals who "earn" 800K can easily pay 50% tax. And the ones who "earn" 5000K can afford paying 80% in taxes without any harm... And guess what - during Eisenhower presidency it was approximately like that!

    Oh, and 90% tax on any inheritance value over 1000K, please...

    MikeCrow
    You could do this, but you should also then expect that tax revenues would drop.

    Why do you think that money that was already taxed at least once, should be taxed again?

    Oh, wait I know, it's because it's not your  money.
    Never is a long time.
    "What do self-loathing types in western countries complain about in the face of such good news?"

    Well, most of people's complaints are well justified, since they judge economy not by some "news", but by their own situation... And I can say that mine got seriously worse: 10 years ago I would've been considered a lower middle class for earning 40K, while now I go without food for days sometimes with teh same salary...

    Hank
    Not sure what to tell you.  I know with the low exchange rate America should have a booming economy - but we are now a culture that hates business so we do everything we can to make sure fewer companies do it in America. But you have a job and about 20% of people can't say that.
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    Not "business" in general, but merely its investment sector of "high finances", which is, in fact, nothing more than a casino. People hate hedge funds (and for a good reason), not private bakeries, breweries, farms or clothing stores... I bet most of people don't even hate banks, car and energy companies - they just hate how those are mismanaged (and, again, for a good reason)...

    rholley
    This, from The Uses of Diversity, written by G.K.Chesterton in 1920, is apposite when considering the export of Capitalism, or even Dem-aah-cracy, to new parts of the world:

    «Many of these Orientalists have lately been filled with horror at finding that Young Turks still propose to be Turkish, and that advanced Japan is still unaccountably Japanese. ... It never seems to strike them that the man of the Far East still has a yellow skin, even when you have also given him a yellow press. But the most astounding version of the thing I found in the following paragraph, the opening paragraph of an article on the Japanese condemnations in an influential weekly paper:

    “Japan has followed Western ways in a great many respects, but it is saddening to learn that she is adopting the most reprehensible methods of Russia and Spain in dealing with men and women who have the intelligence to be ahead of their time and have the courage to avow their opinions.”

    This really strikes me as colossal. I quite agree that Japan has imitated many Western things; I also think that Japan has mostly imitated the worst Western things. That is the cause of my very defective sympathy with Japan. If the Japanese had imitated Dante or mediaeval architecture, if they had imitated Michelangelo or Italian painting, if they had imitated Rousseau and the French Revolution — then I — as a European, should have felt at least flattered.

    But the Japanese have only imitated the worst things of our worst period: the inhuman commercialism of Birmingham; the inhuman militarism of Berlin.»


    We know what that led to, especially the atrocities committed in China between 1931 and 1945.

    However, it is with some temerity that I post this. I am also a fan of Japanese animations, and Grave of the Fireflies (火垂るの墓 Hotaru no Haka) gives a moving picture of the appalling privations (in addition to the incinerations) suffered by the Japanese towards the end of the Second World War.  When I suggested that many innocent people, especially children, did not deserve such punishment for the misdeeds of their leaders, I got blasted by guess-who for using the idea of “deserving”.

    Robert H. Olley Quondam Physics Department University of Reading England
    Dude: The piece sounds like it should have appeared at FoxNews20! All of the false dichotomies and conceits, all of the agglomerations of fact-ish observations and generally agreed upon bugaboos--like Big Gulp bans--and all the enemies--Obama--they're all there! Stop dude!

    Hank
    Which part did you think was Fox News-ish?  That Obama should be able to blow up some stuff the same way Bush could? I'm the guy who defended him when people were complaining he was on a phone call holding a baseball bat.  That we shouldn't ban Big Gulps and expect people will get thin?  Does Fox News have a position on Big Gulps?? 

    The Millennium Goals to help poor people were met 7 years early and more people have freedom than ever. Fox News has never once advertised here but if they are smart enough to see that a liberal policy to help the third world worked, they certainly should be smart enough to throw some money at us.
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