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    Directive For New E.U. Science Advisor Anne Glover: Make Europeans Less Anti-Science
    By Hank Campbell | February 15th 2012 09:19 AM | 48 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    Americans of a particular cultural and political persuasion like to regard Europeans as 'more' scientific because surveys reveal that they say 'yes' to the appropriate buzzwords.  Not so, even to European scientists. Europeans are instead far more distrustful and dismissive of science than most Americans; they are precautionary principle-obsessed.

    Scottish microbiologist Anne Glover would like to change that.  She just took office in Brussels as the first European chief scientific adviser and her first goal is to get people information in the hopes that they will stop listening to advocacy groups and accept science overall the same way they do politically charged topics like climate change. 

    Science magazine conducted an interview with Dr. Glover and it is mostly what you expect; science is awesome, they need more women, they need more young people, etc.  That isn't really relevant in America.  We have more women than men getting Ph.D.s and we produce six times as many Ph.D.s as can get jobs in academia so, unless we count the private sector as also doing science (whaaaaat??) we already produce a lot of people.  Rather than the National Science Foundation spending billions trying to convince people that want to be doctors they should instead be computer scientists, the cost-effective solution is to get rid of the 1990s-era work visa protectionism scheme that lets really smart foreign students get Ph.D.s here and then makes it impossible for them to get jobs, so they have to return home and compete against us.  As I have advocated for the last six years, instead of turning more Americans into scientists, we should turn more scientists into Americans.


    Anne Glover, formerly Chief Scientific Adviser for Scotland, is now the voice of reason for all Europe.

    But she addresses something that is the Big White Elephant In The Room regarding Europe and science; a whole lot of people are anti-science unless it matches their world view.  Sure, Democrats love astrology and Republicans love global warming in the U.S. but those are not harming people (yet).  Being anti-science when it comes to food harms poor people right now.

    Europeans, more than Americans, have a jingo-istic love of progressive economic policies but they are ultra-conservative when it comes to science; they distrust anything new, despite how well-know and tested it is and fringe activists exploit that mentality. 

    A.G.: If you take people's opinions, for instance by looking at the Eurobarometer, people seem to be reluctant to accept innovative technologies. They are suspicious almost just because it's new, rather than thinking: "Oh this is new, I need to find out more about it so that I can judge." At the moment, we are way too much on the side of: "It is new I don't want it, not even discuss it." This leaves the door open for pressure groups which are against certain things and have a very loud voice. There should be more communication about the rewards of the technologies. I would like to balance that.

    Q: Are you talking about genetically modified organisms (GMOs)?

    A.G.: Yes, that is the most important example. In the beginning, decades ago, people were careful to get good regulations in place. Over time, it has been shown that GMO is not a risky technology. But people seem not to have all the information they need to make their own decision. It is not up to Europe to say: "You have to do this," but give the information and let them choose.

    Welcome, Dr. Glover.  Here is hoping you are allowed to give lots of rational input, and perhaps have some say before the EU implements more rules saying things like that water does not make people less thirsty.

    Comments

    vongehr
    Europeans are instead far more distrustful and dismissive of science than most Americans; they are precautionary principle-obsessed.
    Sounds like Europeans do not only know more about science then but also do not entirely refuse to learn from history. The law of unintended consequences did not all of a sudden cease to exist just because we came along.
    Hank
    Yes, they only drive 5 kilometers per hour because cars are too dangerous and they do not take any medicine because science cannot prove medicine is always 100 percent safe for everyone.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    Are you really resorting to an argument from authority?  I don't believe for a minute that you don't appreciate the dangers of driving, nor do I believe that you trust any medicine that is handed to you by a doctor.

    More specifically if a doctor told you to take something [some medicine] and said "the science is settled", you'd probably walk out never to return [after you stopped choking on those words].
    Hank
    You mean me?  I rarely go to the doctor but when he has given me a prescription I have never said anything to the effect of 'Well, I choose not to believe this medicine is safe." 

    I understand risks when I drive also; an alarming number of Europeans simply choose to exaggerate risk, ignore evidence and claim they are being cautious.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    I rarely go to the doctor but when he has given me a prescription I have never said anything to the effect of 'Well, I choose not to believe this medicine is safe."
    Yeah, but I expect that you knew what you were getting and either resolved it with questions or were already familiar with the drug.  I can't think of anyone that would simply trust a prescription that they hadn't heard of before, or take something without confirming why it was being prescribed.

    In addition, it is well known that if any prescription seems to have an undesired side-effect then it is to be reported to the doctor right away, precisely because medications may have unintended consequences and can NOT be presumed to be safe for everyone.

    You also know that there is a vast difference between the "science" and the "marketing".  So, part of the problem is that the PR hasn't been particularly forthcoming about data, but instead has adopted an attitude that they should just be trusted. 

    I know you like to compare genetic modification as being more certain than random cosmic rays, but you also know that random cosmic rays aren't responsible for large scale changes such as those being made through GM.  So, random cosmic rays are MOST likely to have NO effect, so it isn't really a fair comparison.

    Believe it or not, most people want to feel safe and they would like to trust those in authority.  Most people do not wish to get embroiled in lawsuits and instead simply want to live their lives without unnecessary interference.  So when something new is introduced with all kinds of "trust me" messages associated with it, it makes everyone's spidey senses go all tingly.

    It's not an anti-science position.  I'm more than happy to look at the actual literature and studies, if an when they are available.  I tend to agree with you that modified foods aren't likely to be harmful.  Not because I necessarily believe that all the scientific issues are known or settled, but because I don't believe anyone would be that stupid to knowingly engage in unsafe food practices for such a short-term profit. 

    It is appropriate to ask whether GMO foods have unforeseen allergy consequences for people.  It is appropriate to ask how contents labeling will be affected when the food contains ingredients that have now been engineered (especially within the context of allergies).  I don't buy the arguments of those that get all "organic", but neither do I accept the idea that the issue is settled.  It may be perfectly fine, but then, let's look at the data and let people decide for themselves.  We let them decide to buy "organic" or not.  Why not GMO or not?  It's not a complicated question.  However, I suspect that corporations don't want to let the market actually decide this, and there in lies the crux of the problem.

    BTW ... they are more than welcome to do whatever they want to advance GMO crops in developing countries where people are desperate for food.  No problem and I wish them luck in helping such people.  However, I am completely opposed to the notion that corporations should have the right to introduce GMO foods without labeling, simply because they fear the free market.
    vongehr
    Funny how cheerleaders for unregulated XYZ always ridicule the dangers of XYZ on grounds of the absence of all the disasters that regulation prevented. Maybe some day while succumbing to a strain resistant to antibiotics, being shot up by a robot, or plainly seeing your loved ones getting a taste of what global warming may well bring very soon, a terrible anti-science thought may cross your mind: Perhaps some more caution would have been advisable, perhaps avoiding brake-neck speed does not equal climbing back on the trees, perhaps a little more precaution instead of just "hey, new science stuff, nothing to worry about, we have PhDs" was not anti-science.

    But we get it, you have to write your book now, that means nourishing your niche in the reader market; polarization is necessary for success; readers want a simple message that pleases them. You found a platform that sells, now you must run with it. Let Gerhard tell you that hunger does not exist because of lack of food for a hundred times, let me tell you as many times as I like that "instead of turning more Americans into scientists, we should turn more scientists into Americans" is unsustainable right wing idiocy that will be deservedly crushed by China, but never stop to write these same points the same way again and again. Success Hank - go for it - it is all just a game in the end. We will watch and learn and hope to get some crumbs falling down from your feast.
    "But we get it, you have to write your book now, that means nourishing your niche in the reader market; polarization is necessary for success; readers want a simple message that pleases them. You found a platform that sells, now you must run with it."

    No. He's writing a book because he's sick of hearing progressives call everybody else "anti-science" when that label easily applies to them, too. Truth sells.

    "unsustainable right wing idiocy that will be deservedly crushed by China"

    China has a 3% science literacy rate, compared to 28% in the U.S.
    http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2011/10/if-you-think-the-us-has-sci...

    vongehr
    Well, that is certainly funny that you should come hobbling along to defend him - I thought about precisely you, dear Alex, but then I deleted the sentence about the convenient connections and friendships certain writing styles keep handy.

    To your confusing truth (something rather complex) with a simple platform that sells via drumming the same catch phrases over and over again: I personally belong to those who have never held back to call attention to anti-scientific positions, whether they are in the ranks of progressives, so called skeptics/new atheists, or even right smack in the middle of science. But you guys simply do not want to hear anything that is not supporting your hidden agendas. There are plenty of people who for example charge Obama with not listening to the science around drug legalization, but such people do not get through your colored glasses.

    Not surprising then that you have no clue about China. The vital fact is that the science literacy rate in the Chinese leadership is close to 100% while that in the US is basically on the bible thumping level and anyway beside the point as long as science is only followed where convenient. That is why those three percent are blowing up  and will kick your but whether you see it coming or not.
    Hank
    Okay, you determine the value of a culture based on the science level of 'elites'?  How wonderfully authoritarian of you, so benevolently patronizing we proles.  I'm baffled that you consistently complain about the partisan (cultural and political) echo chamber of science and science media yet if I deviate from that by calling out more than just right wing idiots, I also call out left, I am to be dismissed as some sort of cynical crank trying to sell a book.

    In American academia, with only 6% Republicans, the mercenary, cynical approach you claim I have would instead be to pile on the right instead of calling out the supermajority - it is guaranteed to sell less books even mentioning that there are people on the left that are anti-science.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    ...calling out more than just right wing idiots, I also call out left...
    My problem is the qualification of either side.  Shouldn't this simply be about anti-science versus science?  After all to put "right/left" labels on it, doesn't it begin to sound like my side's not as bad as yours, or that somehow they equal out for idiocy?

    In addition, there's far too much reference to "anti-science" which isn't anti-science at all.  Science is about providing evidence and reproducing results.  Therefore if someone holds an opinion contrary to the evidence then it is relatively easy to discover.  Just like proposing a "flat-earth" isn't anti-science, neither are many of the other areas being discussed.

    My concern is that unless we begin to focus on the evidence, we invariably always resort back to arguments from authority which are also invariably wrong in some sense or another.   One can legitimately label people as anti-science when they are demonstrably "anti-evidence", but until then I think it's important that we focus on actual data.
    vongehr
    you determine the value of a culture
    The general issue here is the input that science is allowed to effectively have on politics (via EU advisers, educated populations participating democratically, ... ). Whether that is desired ("value") is a separate issue.
    if I deviate from that by calling out more than just right wing idiots, I also call out left, I am to be dismissed as some sort of cynical crank trying to sell a book.
    I encourage calling out progressive anti-science; this is what I also like to do, especially if it comes in the form of "skeptics". I merely notice the frequency of posts that do little more than repeating catch phrases which have been debunked. You gave up on convincing an educated audience (none of this criticism - I gave up on that too) and are going down the feed-my-minions path with at least three feel-good pieces a week. The refusal to reformulate target-crowd pleaser phrases reminds of those who after having lost an argument against evolution or global warming or relativity theory simply turn away to start the exact same argument again some place else or even same place next day - as if nothing ever happened. How many times has Gerhard explained to you that the argument about world hunger needing GMO is naive? You know it (I am pretty sure you do know it is at least not as trivial as you imply), yet you employ that argument (because your target audience gets a righteous warm and fuzzy feeling?). You do not accept such weak arguments from progressives.
    In American academia ... would instead be to pile on the right
    You are not trying to make it in academia or compete with PZ and they would not give you a toehold in their markets. You are staking out your own little niche in the "fiscal conservatives'" left-right-black-white world that recognizes "science" has attained the importance of hugging babies on the campaign trail.
    And again: It is fine - go ahead. Why not? I enjoy the show.
    So, the EU science adviser says that Europeans have a problem accepting new technology, and you interpret that as evidence that Europeans are actually smarter than the EU science adviser?

    That's an interesting way to frame the discussion.

    vongehr
    I elected the EU science adviser as much as the next European.
    The point is the EU science adviser is a professor of molecular and cellular biology. She knows more about GMOs than the average person. I have my Ph.D. in microbiology. I know more than the average person about GMOs. More weight should be given to experts than to the opinions of uninformed people, don't you think? I doubt you would enjoy having your expertise in theoretical physics questioned by some amateur in a garage.

    vongehr
    You are master at changing the point you are making along the way. Please consider that I am not one of your usual readers who gives you applause for that as long as it sounds to be on their side. Also smearing honey around my beard about having supposed expert status does not fly. I have seen plenty of experts who should be thrown into garages and there are plenty in garages due to sticking to conscientious science instead of gaming the publish-or-perish system.
    Gerhard Adam
    More weight should be given to experts than to the opinions of uninformed people, don't you think?
    Sorry, but that's simply an "argument from authority", and invariably results in other "experts" that disagree just before the naming-calling commences. 

    In truth, the answer to your question is NO.  Opinions are just opinions, and while they might stand a better chance of being correct when there is some expertise backing it up, it still represents nothing more than a personal belief.  That's what makes it an opinion.

    So, in a nutshell, I'm not really interested in your opinion, I'm interested in your knowledge.  If is not shared, then your opinion isn't worth much either.
    Hank
    It's not always a logical fallacy to appeal to authority - if you tell me my car runs on cheese and my mechanic tells me to use gasoline, why would I not listen to an expert even if you claim it is an appeal to authority argument?

    Listening to an anti-food advocate instead of a knowledgeable scientist is an irrationally false balance.  No one is saying scientists should be listened to out of their area of expertise just because they have a title but making a biologist equivalent to a waiter is silly.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    Listening to an anti-food advocate instead of a knowledgeable scientist is an irrationally false balance.
    Not if both are merely expressing opinions.  That's part of the problem.  Unless someone actually has reports and data regarding tests, then neither one is speaking from a position of knowledge.  The biologist is merely expressing an opinion that states that genetic modification "isn't likely" to be unsafe, while the anti-GMO advocate is expressing an opinion that suggests the opposite.  More to the point, how do you resolve the issue if the anti-GMO advocate is also a microbiologist?

    The only way such disputes can be settled is with actual expert data not opinions.  I always ask a simple question to determine whether there's expertise involved or opinion. 

    "Would you be prepared to accept liability based on your statements?"

    This would apply to both sets of opinions, since it basically indicates the level of confidence one has in the opinion.  I'm sure your mechanic would have no problem accepting the premise of liability for advising gasoline instead of cheese. 

    If one is not prepared to accept liability then it opens the conversation up to begin discussing the areas of uncertainty that may exist.  After all, an opinion with no liability is little different than no opinion at all, because the individual is acknowledging that despite all the claims of expertise, they could be wrong.
    ...if you tell me my car runs on cheese and my mechanic tells me to use gasoline, why would I not listen to an expert even if you claim it is an appeal to authority argument?
    Well, that's kind of an extreme example, but more appropriately would be to question why one mechanic might advocate a particular motor oil.  Again, how do you resolve the issue if another mechanic is telling you that it will run on cheese?   Similarly if a doctor gives me advice or makes a recommendation, I always have to question whether they're telling me because they actually have data to support their position or if it's just a position they happen to believe. 

    ALL appeals to authority are ultimately a fallacy if there is no data to back it up.  In short, what difference does it make to be a microbiologist if you haven't actually worked with or tested GMO foods?  Should I accept such an authority simply because they accept the authority of others? 

    My point remains.  In any area of controversy where decisions need to be made, I reserve the right to examine data and not be given opinions.
    "In short, what difference does it make to be a microbiologist if you haven't actually worked with or tested GMO foods? Should I accept such an authority simply because they accept the authority of others?"

    This is an extreme form of skepticism that -- deep down -- you don't actually believe. According to your logic, you shouldn't believe a single word in any history book. Nobody living today has ever met Julius Caesar. We only know he exists because other authorities, who rely on authorities, who rely on authorities tell us he existed. 99% of what we know is based on authority. I've never actually built a nuclear bomb, but I'm pretty sure they work... and exist.

    An expert in molecular biology or microbiology understands the genetic mechanisms behind GMOs, something that most anti-GMO activists don't. That alone, in my opinion, is sufficient. Sure, you might find some molecular biologists who disagree, but they're in the minority. You're right that it comes down to evidence, and what we know so far supports the conclusion that GMOs are safe. We can and should always keep monitoring, particularly for environmental effects. But those studies will take 50 years.

    Gerhard Adam
    According to your logic, you shouldn't believe a single word in any history book. Nobody living today has ever met Julius Caesar.
    Exactly true, but the reason why I can believe it, is because it costs me nothing to do so.  I'm not having to live my life nor make decisions based on that acceptance.

    This is what is overlooked in too many instances.  I didn't matter if I accept Newton's laws or relativity, or most of that science, because it has no material affect on my life (at least not that affects my decision-making requirements).

    However, the science that is always controversial is rarely controversial about the science itself, until it introduces the public policy element.  After all, why should you care whether I accept your opinion, unless you're trying to tell me what to do [or how to live].
    You're right that it comes down to evidence, and what we know so far supports the conclusion that GMOs are safe.
    Good.  Then there should be no problem in labeling such foods as GMO, and putting them on the shelves.  Where's the controversy?  Ahhh .. that's part of the problem isn't it?  Corporations don't want to label such foods, for fear that they will have an adverse affect on the market.  So what do microbiologists say about that?  Why should corporations be allowed to effectively lie to consumers regarding the food they purchase?  Where's the science in that?


    Food labeling would be pointless because 75% of items in the grocery store have at least one GM ingredient. Essentially, everything in the grocery store would be labeled. Labels are also misleading because modern GM technology is just a highly precise way of doing hybridization.... which we have been doing for millennia. We were "genetically modifying" crops long before modern molecular biology came around.

    If it makes people feel better, then I guess I don't have a problem with it. I just don't think there's any point. We might as well put labels on bottled water saying it might not actually cure thirst. (The EU actually wanted to do that.)

    Gerhard Adam
    We might as well put labels on bottled water saying it might not actually cure thirst.
    That's not what they said, so let's not pursue that one. 
    Labels are also misleading because modern GM technology is just a highly precise way of doing hybridization.... which we have been doing for millennia.
    That's also not accurate, since we clearly know what is being discussed is not hybridization, but putting genes into plants for functions which have not and never will occur through normal practices.
    We were "genetically modifying" crops long before modern molecular biology came around.
    You know that is also not an accurate statement.  Rearranging genes isn't exactly the same as modifying them.  We don't produce "glow-in-the-dark" fish, by breeding, just as we don't produce pest resistance through selective hybridization. 

    The part the isn't being discussed which is precisely what people find disingenuous, is that in normal breeding, nature has boundaries that can't be crossed, because the result will either die or be non-viable to produce future generations.  That restriction is essentially lifted when you can directly manipulate and modify genes.  While I can agree that this doesn't automatically make it harmful, you certainly can't argue that it's been an ongoing practice for millenia.   After all, do you really want to advance the argument that says since genes are mixed during human reproduction, then it's ethical to modify any human gene we choose? 
    If it makes people feel better, then I guess I don't have a problem with it.
    It isn't a matter of "feeling better", it's a matter of responsibility in labeling what is being distributed on the market.  If something's been done to modify food from what I can grow in my own yard, then I have a right to know what's been done to it.  Whether I agree with it or not, is ultimately my choice.  Similarly whether I wish to pay for that or not is my choice.

    This is especially important if there is a price differential in what is being produced [unless I'm to believe that companies engaged in GMO foods won't try to recoup their costs].  Just as people charge for the label of "organic" [right or wrong],  I have the right to know what I'm paying for. 

    However, here's a simple enough question and I'd be curious to know what your response is to it.

    Given what we've learned from our use of antibiotics and bacteria, doesn't this raise the question of whether introducing genetically modified plants with "pest resistance" raise the stakes so that the organisms targeted will experience completely new selection pressures that could conceivable result in pesticide resistant bugs ... far beyond those specifically targeted? 

    Also, to suggest that the biological future of the plant isn't subject to variation far beyond our ability to control is also disingenuous.  After all, what we call "genetic modification" is really little more that the bacterial equivalence of Horizontal Gene Transfer (HGT) in higher animals.  We already know how radically it can affect bacteria .... any thoughts on other animals?

    "Given what we've learned from our use of antibiotics and bacteria, doesn't this raise the question of whether introducing genetically modified plants with "pest resistance" raise the stakes so that the organisms targeted will experience completely new selection pressures that could conceivable result in pesticide resistant bugs ... far beyond those specifically targeted?"

    Yes, and it's already happened. But, that's just evolution. It's a never-ending biological arms race. We use antibiotics, and bacteria evolve to resist them. We use pesticides, and insects evolve to resist them. (Both GM pesticides and regular pesticides.) We use herbicides, and plants evolve to resist those. Evolution is an ongoing war. We will ALWAYS have to fight organisms responding to our new technologies. There is no way around it. We always have to be one step ahead... which is hard.

    GM crops aren't particularly good at breeding with wild varieties. Besides, GM crops can be made so that they don't produce pollen. They can be made in such a way that the genes have a very little likelihood of spreading to the environment.

    In regard to spreading to animals: You eat DNA everyday. It's in everything you eat. DNA is broken down by our digestive system. The idea that a gene from a plant will survive that process and integrate into an animal is basically zero. If this was a common occurrence, then people would have incorporated plant genes into their bodies already. But it hasn't happened because long stretches of DNA don't survive our digestive process intact. You could eat those glow-in-the-dark fish, and there is no way that you would ever glow.

    Gerhard Adam
    In regard to spreading to animals:
    Sorry, perhaps you've misunderstood my point.  I understand that DNA can't be transferred by eating.  However, it can be transferred through many other processes (if we include microbial transfers including ingestion potentially by insects).  This can, of course, be aggravated should any of the genetic materials be "acquired" by viruses, but I won't dwell on that.

    The difference between pest resistant plants and pesticides, is that the latter can be controlled in terms of its application.  Once it enters the biosphere as a plant, it represents a continuous presence that provides a fixed "target" for selection to operate against.  In short, how long before we spend as much or more time having to modify each generation of plant [and potentially incrementally increasing risks] simply because we decided that it was cheaper than regular pesticide use?
    GM crops aren't particularly good at breeding with wild varieties. Besides, GM crops can be made so that they don't produce pollen. They can be made in such a way that the genes have a very little likelihood of spreading to the environment.
    Oh, you mean like Jurassic Park?  Sorry, couldn't resist.  The truth is that you can't possibly know that, and there is absolutely zero evidence [or likelihood] that any biological presence is not going to reproduce.  It may have been a cliche in the movie, but "life will find a way".

    However, more to my own concerns, if GM crops aren't particularly good at breeding with wild varieties, do I have to consider a future where corporations determine which of these species gets to "survive"?  Am I looking at a future where government and corporations can dictate whether I can grow tomatoes from seeds? 

    I don't like it, because it's forcing change for the sake of change.  There is no compelling reason that anything needs to be done to the food supply that I'm currently enjoying.  The point that it may be applicable to other places in the world has strong merit, but despite the rhetoric, I don't see that discussion having much traction.

    "Once it enters the biosphere as a plant, it represents a continuous presence that provides a fixed "target" for selection to operate against."

    Farmers aren't supposed to do that. They are supposed to plant both GM and non-GM varieties to prevent this sort of selection you're talking about. Of course, we can't force them, just like we can't force them to apply pesticides appropriately.

    Pesticides aren't good for the environment. It's better to put them in the plant.

    Gerhard Adam
    Farmers aren't supposed to do that.
    Please don't say that.  That sounds too much like "well doctors and the public abused antibiotics, which is why we have resistant bacterial strains now."

    Remember the reason why we have the cane toad and rabbits in Australia today is because someone thought that was a good idea, and "what harm could it do"?
    Hank
    The cane toad was exactly the kind of advocacy in science we need less of; these were people who hated pesticides and convinced the government it was a great idea, the same partisan kind of scientists who thought building reefs out of tires was a good idea in the 1970s. There was no consensus on using cane toads and there was no testing first; in GM food, we have both.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    I agree that there was no general consensus regarding cane toads.  But keep in mind that there were political pressures and the fact that it worked well in two other locations.

    The point is the same here.  As I've said repeatedly, I don't believe anyone has a problem with someone wanting to introduce GMO foods and letting the market decide its acceptance.  However, corporations want government to prevent the public from finding out, thereby ensuring that no informed consent occurs, and that people cannot freely choose within the marketplace.

    It isn't about science.  It's about economics and marketing and it's disappointing to see all the "free market advocates" retreat when they fear the market won't side with their pet product.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The cane toad was exactly the kind of advocacy in science we need less of; these were people who hated pesticides and convinced the government it was a great idea, the same partisan kind of scientists who thought building reefs out of tires was a good idea in the 1970s. There was no consensus on using cane toads and there was no testing first; in GM food, we have both. 
    I agree that there was no general consensus regarding cane toads.  But keep in mind that there were political pressures and the fact that it worked well in two other locations. 
    You both obviously haven't read my comment further down. These were not people who hated pesticides they were scientists who were looking for an environmentally friendly solution to combat pests and the consequent reduced food production, in exactly the same way that scientists are genetically modifying organisms to overcome pests and increase food production now. 

    What makes you both say there was no consensus on using cane toads and that there was no testing first? Two governments departments scientifically tested the effects of cane toads being released into the Queensland sugar cane fields and surrounding environment. First of all Reginald William Mungomery who worked for the Bureau of Sugar Experiment Stations and his team of scientists tested the effects and viability of releasing the cane toads into sugar plantations and then the scientists at the Commonwealth Department of Health did the follow up study, while imposing a ban against releasing cane toads, which remained in place for well over a year.

    What they failed to do was use their imagination and test for the many different permutations of the effects that these pesky cane toads could have upon the native fauna and flora. They are deadly poisonous to most of Australia's predators and produce 3000 offspring with every mating, therefore they proliferate like mad. These predators are dying out and becoming extinct and we now also have mice and rat epidemics which are also destroying farmers' crops, as the snakes that ate them have died.

    How do we know that just one of the new genetically modified plants or animals will not have a similar unexpected effect upon the environment or even upon the consumers? If genetically modified wheat is drought resistant and pest resistant and it blows into the desert, will it out compete the native grasses and replace them, could this destroy native habitats and seasonal cycles? Could it simply be lacking in cyanide or grow too high or thick and affect the way that the bushfires burn and upset nature's balance just like the cane toads did? There is a balance in nature that has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years and many scientists don't necessarily have the imagination to envisage how this balance can be destroyed or even to test for that eventuality.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    See below.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    See below. 
    I see nothing below that bears any relevance to what I am saying about similarities between the cane toad scientists and their testing and lack of imagination and the GMO scientists and their testing and probable lack of imagination also. 
    Make love not war
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Whoops, now I do :)
    Make love not war
    vongehr
    An expert in molecular biology or microbiology understands the genetic mechanisms behind GMOs
    Physicists understand everything about nuclear fission since long before Fukushima, you know, that first world reactor site with the super efficient Japanese science guys whose grandmas already program their toilets? What distinguishes wise people from naive cheerleaders for techno-scientism "trust the experts"-style is not IQ.
    By the way - after your kind linked so happily to "experts" telling us not to worry, did you ever get around to looking at what by now is known happened in Fukushima? Yep - all the according to experts "impossible".
    "In any area of controversy where decisions need to be made, I reserve the right to examine data and not be given opinions."

    I agree in theory, but nobody is an expert in everything. If two physicists came before me presenting two sides of a theory, I would have no idea which one was correct -- regardless of how much evidence each cited -- because my training isn't in physics. For evidence to make sense, a person needs to have enough training in a field to actually understand the debate. Genetics is complicated, so asking a non-scientist for their opinion on GMOs doesn't work.

    Hank
    And we can find a contrarian for anything.  On another article, a guy was able to claim a scientist who disputed plate tectonics and continental drift; the planet was instead inflating like a balloon. There is one respected researcher who insists HIV does not cause AIDS. When the LHC was about to go online, they found one scientist who believed a black hole was going to consume us all.

    Finding a 'science' person do dispute GMOs is nothing different.  If a consensus means nothing, if 10,000:1 numbers are just logical fallacies, we are in big trouble.
    Want more no-nonsense, independent science? Buy Science Left Behind
    Gerhard Adam
    It isn't about finding a contrarian.  I'm not disputing food safety, although I have different concerns that draw my attention.  My point is simply whether any expert should have the right to dictate what I do, without my knowledge {i.e. labeling}.

    People claim to love the free market, so let the market decide. 

    Regardless of how I feel about GMO's, I won't accept the idea that I should be forced to eat them, any more than I am willing to listen to some vegan tell me how red meat is going to kill me.  It's simply no one's business, but if I'm going to be denied the choice ... then that isn't about science. 

    As I've mentioned before.  I don't live in poverty, nor do I live in a hut with no soil to grow food in.  I don't live in drought conditions.  So explain, why I care about GMOs, and why I'm being asked to accept them without labeling or the ability to choose?

    I can assure you that one conversation I definitely don't want to have, is to discover that in a few years, we suddenly find corporations holding patents on the majority of the food supply and suddenly playing the oil company card of being able to charge whatever prices they like, because they've driven alternative choices from the marketplace.  That's what I fear is the real game in play here. 
    86% of corn in the U.S. is genetically modified. Corn prices went up not because of GM, but because of silly corn-ethanol subsidies which reduced the supply of corn for food. If anything, GM will increase the supply of corn, driving down prices. You should fear government subsidies, not corporations.

    The benefits of GM are probably marginal for the developed world. We already have superior and efficient agricultural practices. Organic food is a luxury only the rich world can afford. But GM food could be very, very helpful to the developing world. But, when the EU essentially bans them, that prevents poor people (e.g., in Africa) from growing and selling surplus crops to Europe. That could help Africa make some money, but EU policies are essentially shutting them out of the market.

    Gerhard Adam
    But, when the EU essentially bans them, that prevents poor people (e.g., in Africa) from growing and selling surplus crops to Europe. That could help Africa make some money, but EU policies are essentially shutting them out of the market.
    Isn't that putting the "cart before the horse"?  If the objective is to feed the poor and starving, then let's not worry about selling surplus just yet.

    After all, I'm sure you're not suggesting that if the EU bans GMO's then that is sufficient reason to let the poor in Africa continue to starve?
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The one word that seems to be missing from this debate is 'imagination' because it is also the trait that many scientists historically have demonstrated a complete lack of in their scientific experiments. However, many members of the general public are easily able to imagine how a GMO could adversely affect the environment and/or its consumer but for some bizarre reason scientists repeatedly fail to show much evidence of being able to think outside the square or even test for the unimaginable. 

    One of the biggest man-made environmental disasters in Australia apart from deforestation, land degradation and introduced non-indigenous weeds and pest invasions has resulted from scientists releasing introduced cane toads in Australia after doing extensive scientific experiments to ensure their environmental safety and fitness for the job beforehand. They proved useless as a cane sugar pest controller and became the biggest pest themselves. There is now no way that even scientists can stop the invasion of billions of cane toads crawling their way throughout Australia where they are wreaking havoc by killing the indigenous predators and wiping out many of the native frogs, birds, snakes, lizards and other native fauna as well as many of our domestic dogs and cats.

    "Well the scientist responsible for introducing cane toads to Australia was Reginald William Mungomery who worked for the Bureau of Sugar Experiment Stations, Queensland from 1925  In the 1930’s cane-growers in Queensland were very concerned about crop damage due to beetles – especially the french beetle and the greyback beetle. So the Queensland Department of Agriculture looked into possible solutions. The chemicals available to kill insects at that time were very nasty – even DDT was yet to be invented – so less "destructive” approaches were examined. Based on reports of cane toad introduction helping to increase yields in Hawaiian sugar cane crops by eating beetles, Reginald Mungomery organized the import of toads." See http://www.canetoadsinoz.com/invasion.html 

    "It’s easy to criticize scientists like Mungomery - with the benefit of hindsight, bringing in toads was a REALLY bad idea! But we think that’s a bit tough if they were indeed looking for a more ecologically sustainable solution to beetle damage than harmful chemicals, all we can really say is that they tried to do the right thing, but got it awfully wrong.’ ‘After an initial release in August 1935, the Commonwealth Department of Health decided to ban future introductions until a study was conducted into the feeding habits of the toad. The study was completed in 1936 and the ban lifted, at which point large scale releases were undertaken." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cane_toad 

    So the scientists at the Commonwealth Department of Health who did the follow up study were also to blame for not using their imagination. The public is concerned that these scientists are no different to the ones who are now confidently telling them that GMO crops are safe. Its easy to imagine how a genetically modified wheat could spread seed into surrounding native grasslands and overwhelm the the native grasses which have evolved over millions of years specifically in Australia. These grasses have special bushfire properties which in turn influence how other native plants like the Kangaroo Paw plant for example are able to reproduce by being burnt quickly in these native grass bushfires and it is only when specific chemicals like cyanide and even karrikins within these burning native grasses are released initially as smoke and eventually into the soil that the Kangaroo Paw seeds are triggered to grow. GMO grasses could maybe burn differently or not release these same chemicals, how many more native flora and fauna could then die out as a result? 

    How many more unimaginable scenarios have been overlooked by these GMO scientists? Could eating a GMO product such as an edible, genetically modified canola oil for example, adversely affect our children's fertility or brain development somehow, causing even lower sperm counts or more Aspergers or autism or even early dementia? Sperm counts are dropping rapidly and the incidence of Aspergers, autism and early dementia increasing at alarming rates and scientists still don't really know why. How long would it take before we discovered this additional potentially negative GMO effect? Twenty years maybe? Then it would be too late, just as it is too late in Australia to turn back the clock and fix the cane toad problem. 
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    If two physicists came before me presenting two sides of a theory, I would have no idea which one was correct -- regardless of how much evidence each cited -- because my training isn't in physics.
    OK .... but are you then prepared to make a potentially life-altering decision based on these two sides of the theory? 
    Genetics is complicated, so asking a non-scientist for their opinion on GMOs doesn't work.
    Not the issue.  I can appreciate that genetics is complicated.  I can appreciate that we have problems in the world, especially regarding food.  What isn't correct, is to assume that I have to take your word for it that I have to modify my food habits to accept your premise of GMOs.  Bear in mind, I might feel differently if I had no other food choices, but I do.  So, to suggest that I must accept GMOs, when there are numerous alternative choices [available to me] is simply wrong.

    This gets back to my point about labeling, because if I'm not informed, then your position is tantamount to forcing me to accept your making a decision about how I choose to live.  I'm being deprived of making an informed choice.  Regardless of how complicated genetics is, still doesn't mean you have the right to choose for me.  Medicine is complicated, but I can't imagine too many doctors telling their patients to simply shut up and do what they're told because they're the experts.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    I totally agree with you about the labelling Gerhard. It is outrageous that we are already being deprived of making informed choices.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    I think I just figured out what this was all about.  GMO's aren't illegal, so the issue is one of labeling and informed consumers.  These companies spend millions of dollars on lobbying and advertising and yet it appears that they haven't spent a dime on promoting a product they claim will solve world hunger.

    It seems that what they're trying to do is to distance themselves form the product controversy and get the government to approve their selling it without informing the consumers as to what they're buying.  That way, IF something should go wrong or if a problem were to surface, then these corporations could claim that they were "operating according to the letter of the law" and therefore not doing anything wrong.

    I say, let the market decide.  If they can't handle that, then they simply don't need to bring their product to market.  I don't want any more governmental protection of corporations to engage in practices they're not willing to be upfront about.

    ...and please, no arguments about how onerous labeling laws and costs are to corporations.  They have no trouble spending millions on lobbyists to get government help, they can bloody spend some money on informing the consumers they're trying to sell to.  They've worn out my sympathy with their whining and government hand-outs.
    Gerhard Adam
    Helen

    Actually that's not true.
    The beetle's larvae were eating the roots of the sugar cane and stunting, if not killing, the plants. The anticipated solution to this quickly escalating problem came in the form of the cane toad. After first hearing about the amphibians in 1933 at a conference in the Caribbean, growers successfully lobbied to have the cane toads imported to battle and hopefully destroy the beetles and save the crops.

    In early 1935, a box containing 102 toads from Hawaii -- one place that had already brought in the amphibians for a similar purpose -- arrived in Gordonvale, a small town just south of Cairns. After a short time in captivity, the population had multiplied to reach 3000, and in July of 1935, the cane toads were released into the fields. Initially, some naturalists and scientists warned of the risks in loosing the toads and protested. After a brief moratorium, the releases resumed in 1936. Australians, know the rest all too well.
    http://news.mongabay.com/2005/0417b-tina_butler.html

    In 1936 a major political confrontation occurred over the release of the cane toad. The BSES informed the Queensland minister for agriculture, Bulcock, of the ban and he sent a recommendation on behalf of the toad to Queensland Premier Forgan Smith. In turn the Premier sent a recommendation to the Australian Prime Minister Joseph Lyons. Newspapers in Brisbane and Sydney also entered the debate on behalf of the toad. Lyons overruled the Department of Health.

    In September 1936, as Buzacott remembered, ‘thousands of baby toads were released on what was Leoni’s farm in the Little Mulgrave (due to many ponds) and on many other grub affected farms.’ The cane toad, however, was an unsuccessful biological control for the cane grubs that continued to affect the sugar crops.

    http://www.qhatlas.com.au/introducing-cane-toad
    The point here is that politics overrode whatever scientific caution existed.  In addition, it is intuitively obvious that NO testing of any kind took place, since even a cursory examination of the cane toad's behavior and the Greyback cane beetles wouldn't work.  We're not talking about any complicated biology here.  The cane toad couldn't jump high enough and the habits of the two species weren't conducive to the cane toad as being a biological control.

    However, from that point on, it was simply politics and business hubris.
     
    There is a balance in nature that has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years and many scientists don't necessarily have the imagination to envisage how this balance can be destroyed or even to test for that eventuality.
    Actually there is no such thing as a "balance of nature".  However, I agree with the essential point that we certainly don't know how natural selection can play out across the range of potential species that could be affected.  We also don't know what are supposed to be the "recommended practices" for producing GMO foods.  As mentioned in an earlier post, apparently farmers aren't supposed to plant them every year.  So, what happens if they don't follow this practice?  How do we mitigate against the effect?

    One has to be careful in how this type of situation is interpreted, because in the same way that I don't want scientists to be setting public policy, I also don't want them to be arbitrarily blamed when the science doesn't quite work out the way it should.  Instead I recognize that important decisions are going to be made by non-experts and will often be implemented in problematic ways.  Therefore, it is of utmost importance that people be fully informed of their choices, and be capable of making them without government legislation or corporate heavy-handness dictating the terms. 

    Certainly we can also agree that arbitrary application of the precautionary principle isn't always appropriate either, since there are often circumstances where we simply can't know everything, but the likelihood of gross errors is small enough to warrant the risk.  The cane toads is a perfect example of simply ignoring reality, since even a minor application of the precautionary principle would've demonstrated the problem being created. 

    Similarly, I'm not even advocating the precautionary principle with respect to GMO foods.  I'm simply arguing for information.  Let me know and let the market decide.  I'm not claiming the food is dangerous, nor introduces an unnecessary risk.  I agree that there will be unforeseen and unintended biological consequences, but similarly there will be that effect by the simple creation of several billion more humans. 

    So, this isn't anti-science, nor excessive consideration for the precautionary principle.  It's simple "free market economics".  Bring it to market and let informed consumer consent dictate success or failure.  However, if the purpose is to introduce food "under the radar", then I'm afraid I can't support such a government/corporate effort.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    According to this article, "Reginald W. Mungomery was a scientist who worked for the Queensland Bureau of Sugar Experiment Stations (BSES) that procured toads as a biological control against cane beetles in the Queensland sugar cane fields. The Meringa experimental farm, just outside Gordonvale, was the most northerly outpost of the BSES. Mungomery was lead entomologist and James Hardie Buzacott his junior". He was the first person to breed the cane toads in captivity, this in itself was a scientific experiment by a scientist who worked for a scientific establishment." 

    "At the Brisbane conference Mungomery read the paper ‘A short note on the breeding of Bufo Marinus in captivity’. He noted the success of their project, It will be obvious that if breeding can be carried out successfully under confined conditions there will be considerable saving in time and labour in the collection of small toads for distribution to other centres, to say nothing of the decrease mortality during this early period of establishing the toad in Queensland, owing to the exclusion from the pond of predatory water beetles and larvae of different kinds, snakes, birds, etc., which are sure to prey on either the eggs, tadpoles, or the toads themselves."

    "Froggatt published the first paper to publicly dissent on the toads release. Froggatt concluded: ‘This great toad, immune from enemies, omnivorous in its habits, and breeding all the year round, may become as great a pest as the rabbit or cactus’. Froggat successfully lobbied the Commonwealth government Department of Health (CGDH) to take precautions and they banned the further release of the toad." Even so the scientists managed to get the ban lifted a year later, the rest is history..............

    They were lousy experiments and the later experiments by the CGDH were even aware of Froggatt's concerns and that is what I'm saying, that scientists with no imagination and preconceived ideas who do limited scientific experiments are very dangerous. How do we know that the GMO scientists have done a better job than these scientists did?

    Genetically modified organisms have a lot in common with cane toads. They are genetically superior and resistant to non GMOs and for me this alone is a reason to be concerned about unforeseen effects when they compete in an environment against less competitive native species. The way that scientists genetically modify crops to become insect resistant can be accidentally transferred by pollination and cross breeding to related weeds, making them also insect resistant, can you imagine how terrible that could be in Australia? Weeds that are drought resistant and impervious to insects? How could the local flora and insects compete? Also bees are insects and they could also be adversely affected if their food sources accidentally become insect resistant and therefore poisonous to bees. As Einstein apparently pointed out (sorry I know you hate Einstein quotes) without bees he reckoned that humanity would probably survive about 3 years.
    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Even so the scientists managed to get the ban lifted a year later, the rest is history..............
    Unfortunately it just ain't so.  Certainly there were issues with the experimental data and people changing their minds.  Even Montgomery originally didn't think the toads would do any good, but two years later he changed in his mind (1935).

    Here's the pertinent events:
    But after the Congress on the 8th November 1935 Bill Kerr, Director of BSES, received a bombshell – a telegram from Dr Cumpston of the Commonwealth Department of Health which prohibited further releases of the toad. The post-Congress euphoria evaporated.
    So before the release, there was a ban in place to prevent anything further from taking place.  This was largely orchestrated by Froggatt in lobbying for this view.

    However, now business and politics enter the drama:
    The Director of BSES, Bill Kerr, wrote to the Australian Sugar Producers’ Association and the Queensland Cane Growers’ Council announcing the ban. The Council’s Secretary, Bill Doherty, immediately telegraphed his members asking for ‘... strong agitation against Federal authorities’. Bill Kerr also briefed his Minister, Frank Bulcock, who in turn sent a glowing recommendation of the toad to the Premier of Queensland, William Forgan Smith, suggesting he make representations to the Prime Minister.
    At this point, politics trumps:
    The very next day Dr Cumpston telegraphed the Queensland Under Secretary for Agriculture and Stock to partially lift the ban, and the Prime Minister added later that ‘... no objection would be raised against the release of toads in those areas in which liberations have already been made’32 – the Cairns, Gordonvale and Innisfail region. Here was the smoking gun; support for the toad went right to the top and the strength of the sugar lobby was enough for Joseph Lyons to over-rule his Head of the Department of Health – in an instant.
    The following statement pretty well encapsulates the whole issue:
    An unhappy Dr Cumpston wrote to the Queensland Under Secretary to say ‘It is recognised, of course, that your Government is prepared to accept its share of responsibility for the action which is now being taken’. BSES still wanted the ban lifted completely because cane growers were now calling for their allocation of toadlets, but first they had to satisfy a snubbed and unhappy Dr Cumpston.
    The entire historical debacle is fascinating reading and can be read in its entirety here.
    http://cdupress.cdu.edu.au/HotTopics/documents/HTT-1.1-Turvey-2009.pdf

    However, let's not get too carried away in making such comparisons, because it should be clearly understood by everyone that mistakes and errors can certainly occur, both in the past as well as in the future.  The precautionary principle needs to be judiciously applied, if at all.

    The main point here is not to challenge the existing science regarding GMO foods, but to ensure that it operates with the full light of scrutiny on it, and that consumers and others are fully informed of what they are participating in.  In addition, secretiveness and compulsion are simply unacceptable components of this. 
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The main point here is not to challenge the existing science regarding GMO foods
    Sorry but I don't agree. Anyway, its time to go and test out the tail wagging skills and associated behaviours of my dogs. That's it from me!

    Make love not war
    Gerhard Adam
    Be that as it may, remember the entire basis for this and other scientific efforts are based on a flawed biological notion.  That flaw is the human desire to exempt themselves from the fundamental limits of population growth. 

    Talk about an anti-science attitude.
    Once again - why, why, why do they hype GM?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpCEdtWPQSI