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    MH370 - Why Search Teams Ignored Georesonance
    By Patrick Lockerby | April 30th 2014 05:58 PM | 25 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
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    Retired engineer, 60+ years young. Computer builder and programmer. Linguist specialising in language acquisition and computational linguistics....

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    MH370 - Why Search Teams Ignored Georesonance

    As soon as I read about the claims that Georesonance identified an aircraft wreck at the bottom of the Bay of Bengal my bogusness meter went off the scale.  A whois search shows the company is registered to a small private residence.   The company claims to have identified an underwater object using multispectral images.

    Quoted words below are from the Georesonance Pty. Ltd. press release posted by Air Traffic Management.net.


    Nonsense on stilts

    The wreckage is sitting on the seabed approximately 1000m to 1100m from the surface.
    ...
    GeoResonance Remote Sensing analyses super-weak electromagnetic fields captured by airborne multispectral images.
    ...
    GeoResonance searched for chemical elements that make up a Boeing 777: aluminium, titanium, copper, steel alloys, jet fuel residue, and several other substances.

    Multispectral image analysis is performed using data which is commonly presented as images of what is "seen" by imaging devices in different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum.  In water the limits of the technology are set by the absorption, refraction and scattering of photons.  In the cleanest, clearest and least disturbed pure water it is barely possible to see objects down to about 275 meters in strong sunlight.  "Super-weak" electromagnetic fields? Forget it.  Sea water is turbulent, its surface is in constant motion and it contains significant quantities of many chemicals - to say nothing of suspended matter and marine flora and fauna.  And let's not forget the garbage.  The suggestion that multispectral imaging - strong or weak - can detect the chemical constituents of any object at over 1 km depth is prima facie absurd.

    My Google searches for various clues to the bogusness of this company's claims turned up some very interesting facts over at metabunk.org -
    The company itself has almost no history or internet presence before this story
    ...
    Experts at NASA concur this is nonsense, and likely a publicity stunt.
    ...
    This makes zero sense. The suggest that the plane has crashed, aligned perfectly north-south, with no significant fuel leakage, and yet they can detect the fuel in the fuel tanks, and the copper wiring, and the internal engine components, all through the skin of the plane.
     I had overlooked the Wayback Machine, so thanks to txt29 for the tip.  It seems that Georesonance was previously selling "Geo-resonance rejuvenation".  The site owner was Alma Sander-Landis, self-described as "Developer and Master Geo-Resonance Technician".

    This sort of thing reminds me of the bioresonance scam devices which, although thoroughly debunked, are still being promoted.

    The following is a brief summary of the technologies that we apply during the Remote Sensing stage:

        Earth Remote Sensing.
        Multispectral imaging.
        Gamma irradiation.
        Radiation chemistry.
        NMR spectroscopy.
        Proprietary know-how.
    NMR spectroscopy?  From images? Under 1km of water?  Tell it to the Marines - or Dr. Hornak.  If he believes it then so will I.
    The Company and its Directors are surprised by the lack of response from the various authorities
    It should really be no surprise to anyone that a company which claims to do NMR spectroscopy under 1km of water using "extraordinary technology" is being ignored.  The scientists, engineers, technicians and others who are trying to determine what happened to MH370 can do without this kind of "assistance".


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    Comments

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    The Company and its Directors are surprised by the lack of response from the various authorities
    It should really be no surprise to anyone that a company which claims to do NMR spectroscopy under 1km of water using "extraordinary technology" is being ignored.  The scientists, engineers, technicians and others who are trying to determine what happened to MH370 can do without this kind of "assistance".
    Patrick do you think that you are maybe being just a tad bit overly scathing here? The same press release that you linked to above also said :-
    The search was completed using proven technology. In the past, it had been successfully applied to locate submersed structures, ships, munitions and aircraft. In some instances objects that were buried under layers of silt could not be identified by other means. At present the technology is being used with great success in the mining exploration industry.
    In order to identify and locate subsurface substances, GeoResonance Remote Sensing analyses super-weak electromagnetic fields captured by airborne multispectral images. During the search for MH370, GeoResonance searched for chemical elements that make up a Boeing 777: aluminium, titanium, copper, steel alloys, jet fuel residue, and several other substances. The aim was to find a location where all those elements were present.
    GeoResonance commenced the search before the official Search and Rescue operation moved to the Southern Indian Ocean. The multi-discipline team of 23 researchers, including 5 professors and 12 PhDs got involved in the project. The search used the imagery taken on March 10, 2014, and was conducted consecutively in 4 zones north and northwest of Malaysia, until all targeted elements produced an anomaly in one place in the Bay of Bengal.
    GeoResonance completed analysis of multispectral imagery of the location taken on March 5, 2014. It established that the anomaly had appeared between the 5th and 10th of March 2014.

    Now maybe I'm also being a bit biased because GeoResonance is an Australian company and mining is our life blood also Georesonance is supposed to have a multi-discipline team of 23 researchers, including 5 professors and 12 PhDs who got involved in the project! That's a hell of a lot of professors and PHD's in one team risking their reputations isn't it? 

    I decided to try and contact GeoResonance by phone but can't find a registered number for them only an email contact form on their website which I have filled out. This recent Adelaide newspaper article describes a partnership between Australian mining identity Carl Dorsch and GeoResonance managing Director Pavel Kursa and also mentions that 'Adelaide-based David Pope and Perth-based Peter Fox are joint partners in GeoResonance, which is also supported by SA finance specialist Max Harris.' Most of these people can be found on LinkedIn and some seem to have impressive CVs, directorships and qualifications, so presumably they are genuine?

    This paper by Fred A Kruse describes 'Mineral Mapping Using Spectroscopy: From Field Measurements to Airborne and Satellite-Based Imaging Spectrometry' and also seems quite genuine but who am I to judge its authenticity with regard to its ability to locate MH370? Basically I'm a nobody, so you are probably right Patrick :( I hope they find out soon.

    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    Helen, here is a simple check of their credibility anyone can do. Look up their website under projects special projects and you will see they claim to have found the wreck of a famous world war 2 ship, the "Armenia" in 2005 . Now google Armenia and see if you can find any confirmation of this claim . On the contrary people are still looking for it.

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Yes, I just saw that somewhere else. doesn't sound good does it? This recent CNN article 'Claim of possible Flight 370 wreckage obligates searchers to look, experts say' :-
    Even as they were rejecting as far-fetched an Australian company's assertion that it may have identified the resting place of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 -- thousands of miles from where investigators have been searching -- experts acknowledged Wednesday that they have little choice but to check it out.
    "The investigators are going to be hard-pressed to blow this off," said Mary Schiavo, a former inspector general for the Department of Transportation. "I think, at this point, because of the lack of results where they've been searching for six weeks, they're almost stuck. They have to go look."
    "The company is not declaring this is MH370, however it should be investigated," GeoResonance said Tuesday in a news release. GeoResonance Managing Director Pavel Kursa, citing intellectual property concerns, would not explain how the imaging works.

    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    I found an article from Pravda, May 2005 that says that a team of Ukrainian scientists found the Armenia. It states: http://english.pravda.ru/history/05-05-2005/8193-armenia-0/

    05.05.2005
    Ukrainian scientists have recently discovered new details connected with the sanitary boat Armenia, which sank in November of 1941 in the Black Sea and became the largest shipwreck during WWII.
    The sunken boat is resting at the depth of 472 meters. Researchers are going to organize a special underwater mission to the boat at the end of May. It is noteworthy that it was very hard to locate the underwater location of the sunken ship-hospital. Armenia's radio operator and the pilot of the German plane transmitted different position data about the site of the sea, where the boat sank.

    Lanette. 472 m is relatively shallow. relatively low cost submersible with camera could easily confirm this and whatsmore an even lower cost side scan sonar (proven technology) could show a very good outline of it . This is a very important historical shipwreck, do you really think if the "discovery " was real that it would not have been confirmed 9 years later? What happened to the underwater mission to be done by the end of May 2005?

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat


    Tezza, this Russian article written in June 2013 explains that there are a lot of problems with confirming this discovery of the Armenia wreck site, here is a very rough Google translation of some relevant excerpts from the article :-
    In August this year, the Black Sea Undersea Research Centre, supervised by the Crimean Republican Committee for the Protection of Cultural Heritage, will take another attempt to discover the remains of the ship "Armenia", sunk in 1941, along with thousands of passengers. Similar attempts have been made repeatedly, and have repeatedly stated that the ship seems to be found. But every such discovery certainly contested, so still a single official and documented version of where the wreckage of "Armenia" does not exist.
    However, even before the search for "Armenia" attracted Ballard (who, incidentally, was more interested in looking for the coast of Crimea evidence theory about the Great Flood), traces of "Armenia" other researchers have found. At least it was discussed in the article "Armenia found!" Published in the sixth issue of the journal "Neptune" in 2008. Article, in particular, told that due to the unique search complex group of Russian and Ukrainian scientists have found in the area of the death of "Armenia" (15 kilometers from the coast between Yalta and Gurzuf) three sunken vessel sizes. One of them, the results of remote sensing, was identified as "Armenia".
    It was also argued that the submerged vessel, which lies under the seven-meter layer of silt at a depth of 520 meters, the researchers "found signs remotely finding significant quantities of articles of precious metals." The article mentioned many indirect signs, which scientists have identified the ship, such as: a large number of human remains in the form of bones, nose housing location in the south-east (ie in the direction that was "Armenia" before his death), and so on.
    Seemingly in search of a dead ship set point. However, later, Sergei Voronov said that after receiving a report on the above expedition to the place where the kind of had to be "Armenia" was sent underwater vehicle "Rock Lobster" (depth - up to 600 meters), which found nothing. On the other hand, experts say, the "Crawfish" was not equipment that can detect an object under a thick layer of marine mud.
    Anyway, the plot of the seabed, where presumably there are remains of the ship have already been investigated quite thoroughly - as recognized by the Ravens, there are only two small square. They were previously inaccessible due to the depth that could not descend replaced "Crawfish" Ukrainian remotely operated underwater vehicle "Sophocles" - the most sophisticated device of its kind that still has local scientists.Now at the Center rely on the French unit "Archimedes", capable of diving to a depth of 11 transcendent kilometers. In a world of such devices unit, and Ukrainians are going to get it for free, but from anyone - not specified.
    Search for "Armenia" is complicated by the fact that the remains of the ship, apparently lie in a layer of hydrogen sulfide, the concentration of which increases sharply starting in the Black Sea with an average depth of 150 meters. At the same time, the hydrogen sulfide is well preserved paper, and it gives us a chance to find a whole documents safe from the captain's "Armenia", which could shed light on one of the biggest mysteries of World War II.
    It looks as though there are 3 wrecks covered in many metres of silt lying within a layer of hydrogen sulfide and that this year there will be another expedition to finally and officially confirm whether one of these wrecks is the Armenia. It certainly doesn't look to me to be as simple an operation as you are claiming it to be.

    Another article on the University of Texas website called 'Phantoms of the Deep - Archaeologists unearth a graveyard of ancient shipwrecks in the Black Sea' written Oct. 27, 2008 says :- 
    This fall, the team returned to the Black Sea on a mission to locate the Armenia, a Soviet hospital ship sunk by German aircraft in 1941. The President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, is eager to locate the wreck to honor those who died, Davis says.The Black Sea was a major theater for naval skirmishes in World War II, and the sinking of the Armenia was one of the war’s biggest maritime disasters.
    “In less than 10 minutes, more than 7,000 people died in the sinking and the people on the shore could do nothing but watch the tragedy unfold,” Davis says. “If the ship is in the anoxic layer, there’s a good possibility that we’ll find thousands of wounded passengers in a high state of preservation.”

    That could be an extremely emotional discovery!

    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    Helen, thank you for these interesting articles. The silt theory would refute my statement that it would be simple to confirm the wreck..but it also reinforces the point.. The Armenia has not been found. It has not been found until it has been found...ie we have pictures or artifacts or at least a sonar scan that can be matched up to the shape of the Armenia. and remember they were saying they found it in 2005. but poeple are still looking for it in 2013.

    I used the Armenia found claim as an easily checkable fact to show these people are not genuine. I could go into some more technical detail ( I am a PhD chemist) but this is the problem. Why should a non scientist believe me and more than any other who claims to be a PhD scientist? But here is another clue that a non scientist can easily verify. Google penetration depth of gamma irradiation ( one of the techniques claimed to be used by Georesonance) . you will find that at best gamma rays might penetrate a few meters of warter, not 1 km . Here is a useful link http://depts.washington.edu/physcert/radcert12/575website/slides/student...

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Tezza, I am not in any way saying I know enough about the subject to say whether GeoResonance's claims are credible or not and the fact that Patrick and you are both discrediting and even ridiculing them here means that most probably they are not credible. 

    All I did earlier was try to check some of the credentials of the various Directors of GeoResonance mentioned in this recent Adelaide newspaper article which mentioned a partnership between Australian mining identity Carl Dorsch and GeoResonance managing Director Pavel Kursa and also said that 'Adelaide-based David Pope and Perth-based Peter Fox are joint partners in GeoResonance, which is also supported by SA finance specialist Max Harris.' I pointed out that most of these people can be found on LinkedIn and that some seem to have impressive CVs, directorships and qualifications, so its surprising that they want to be publicly associated with a company that is globally making ridiculous claims isn't it? 

    You then used the GeoResonance Armenia wreck claim as proof to me that GeoResonance were not a credible company but I then found quite a few Russian articles that claimed that similar technology that GeoResonance claim to be using had been used by scientists  to locate the Armenia wreck at the same time that they claimed to have completed that project. Anyway, GeoResonance have backed out of the public arena with quite an articulate press release and presumably they were wrong to make those global public claims as the technology to do what they say they did does not even exist. Did you read Gamma's comment below? S/he said :-
    'Before judging the plausibility of the method, check out "Earth's Field NMR". Wikipedia's "Proton Magnetometer" entry also mentions how that method has been used to locate underwater metal objects. Also, the penetration depth of NMR frequencies is pretty much unrelated to optical clarity. Not too surprising, since optical frequencies are a trillion times higher, and absorption is governed by Rayleigh scattering rather than ohmic absorption. In fact, Earth's field NMR of the materials quoted by Georesonance are in the same range as ELF (extremely low) signals chosen for submarine communication, precisely because such low frequencies CAN penetrate deep seawater. There are concerns based on signal-to-noise considerations, but given that the method is claimed to have a military pedigree, technical sophisitication and ingenuity is likely to be quite high.'
    What did you think of that comment and the Wikipedia Proton Magnetometer article? It didn't seem very relevant to me and I certainly couldn't see any reference to how that method has been used to locate underwater metal objects. I now think that it is probably all a big scam and if so then its an appalling waste of people's time and probably very upsetting for the MH370 passengers' family and friends. I hope that the Directors of GeoResonance do not get off Scot free if their company has deliberately made scandalous, misleading, unfounded and unscientific claims.
    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    Helen, thank you for these interesting articles. The silt theory would refute my statement that it would be simple to confirm the wreck..but it also reinforces the point.. The Armenia has not been found. It has not been found until it has been found...ie we have pictures or artifacts or at least a sonar scan that can be matched up to the shape of the Armenia. and remember they were saying they found it in 2005. but poeple are still looking for it in 2013.

    I used the Armenia found claim as an easily checkable fact to show these people are not genuine. I could go into some more technical detail ( I am a PhD chemist) but this is the problem. Why should a non scientist believe me and more than any other who claims to be a PhD scientist? But here is another clue that a non scientist can easily verify. Google penetration depth of gamma irradiation ( one of the techniques claimed to be used by Georesonance) . you will find that at best gamma rays might penetrate a few meters of warter, not 1 km . Here is a useful link http://depts.washington.edu/physcert/radcert12/575website/slides/student...

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Actually Tazza, thanks to another comment here by Lanette Nelson (not verified) I did then Google and find quite a lot of unconfirmed evidence of 'scientists' apparently locating the site of the Armenia wreck several years ago, for example see http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?17800 I suppose that scientists' claims to have located a possible wreck site will always remain unsubstantiated until underwater technology, often at great expense, is employed to confirm it? I doubt that companies like GeoResonance for example have the resources to do the work of underwater site confirmation alone. 
    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    logicman
    This paper by Fred A Kruse describes 'Mineral Mapping Using Spectroscopy: From Field Measurements to Airborne and Satellite-Based Imaging Spectrometry' and also seems quite genuine but who am I to judge its authenticity with regard to its ability to locate MH370? Basically I'm a nobody, so you are probably right Patrick :( I hope they find out soon.

    As one nobody to another, Fred A Kruse knows that whereof he speaks.  The clue is in the word surface, as against the GR claim of 1 km underwater.  :-)
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Ha ha, OK Patrick, however I got the impression that GeoResonance picked up the multiple images before whatever it was they thought they had detected had sunk to the bottom of the ocean didn't they? After a certain date the images were no longer visible or so I thought? Who knows? Shame you can't just have a quick chat with all those GeoResonance PHDs and professors who now say they are exiting from all this publicity and criticism!
    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    The GeoResonance man looked credible to me, hear him out send a boat up to Bengal and take a look. They haven’t found anything looking down in Antarctica.

    Having directed R&D for the last 30 years, patenting etc I can say that the state of science today is almost laughable. Give me a break, they are still teaching the big bang theory. Quantum physics remains un-integrated in the realty model, the second law of thermal dynamics is bogus, CEO Bill Rich from Lockheed Martin’s skunkworks said when they corrected Maxwell’s flawed equation they solved interstellar flight. The pace of technology today is breathtaking and often it can eclipse the accepted science.

    In my last two years I researched LENR element forming processes and in 200 lab trials learned how to make gold from barren artificial seed ores. The metal yields were extraordinary so I took the data to a physicist’s blog, and within an hour my membership was revoked and I was banned until the year 2217.

    The $200 billion BOSON Buz is misspent research monies going nowhere. Blue Eagle Refiners Inc has now filed the gold making patent (pending), the technology discovery story is about to break on Kitco.com and TreveriMarket.com is near completing its due diligence for $5.0 mil raise to move the work in the lab where we made large gold beads, to a series of pilot plants where we will pour gold bars.

    Nature continuously creates the elements in LENR conditions and all we did was to recreate those “elemental bloom” conditions and optimize for duration and yield. To view a discovery video of the gold making process, go to: https://vimeo.com/90037448

    I can say after my experiences here that it is much easier to actually make gold than it is to share the verifiable data with a dogmatic closed mind.

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    As I mentioned on my corkboard to you (a private place for Science20 members to communicate with their Science20 friends) :-

    Maybe I was right to believe those Maldives Islanders accounts of seeing a low flying, very loud red and white jumbo jet! Why would so many people lie or hallucinate in one place? It says that 'the plane’s pilot, Captain Zaharie Shah, is believed to have practised landing at Male International Airport in the Maldives on a three-screen flight simulator at his home' so maybe that is why he went there? Maybe there was also a recently patented Freescale radar cloaking device on board MH370 in the luggage of the 20 Freescale employees that somehow prevented the Maldives Military radar from detecting the MH370 flight path which led to them then denying the Maldives eye witnesses claims simply for that reason? Surely it is also possible that an operational radar cloaking device on board the plane could have been responsible for electromagnetically interfering with the MH370 air data inertial reference unit (ADIRU) so that the pilots had to then switch it off and fly blind?

    The first image shows the position of the Maldives Islands on the World map, the second shows the site of the wreckage that GeoResonance say they have found. You have to admit that they are definitely very close together! 

    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    Attacking GR tech as 'pseudoscience' and dismissing a likely area of search along with methodology sounds like bureaucrats at work. If GR is doing this as a publicity stunt, why would they commit themselves to worldwide exposure to their predicted failure?

    This talking point makes no sense. Nor does it make sense they have expended so many resources on the Australian front based on reports of 'flotsam' which is something you can't avoid bumping into. It's a trashy search for trash that leaves us with more skepticism about true intent.

    logicman
    Attacking GR tech as 'pseudoscience' and dismissing a likely area of search along with methodology sounds like bureaucrats at work. If GR is doing this as a publicity stunt, why would they commit themselves to worldwide exposure to their predicted failure

    "Sounds like bureaucrats at work."  Ouch!  There is only one of me and I can't abide bureaucrats.  I prefer to think of myself as an investigative blogger with a nose for bogus claims.

    Pseudoscientific scams work because there are people who accept what is claimed without having the background knowledge or skills to reject pseudoscience.  The people who sold fake explosives detectors made a lot of money despite people like myself trying to warn the public of the scam.  It took a long time for the law to stretch out its long arm, at first mildly in January 2010 and then with great force in April 2013.

    "The ADE 651 is a lump of plastic with a wobbly telescopic antenna attached.  It is claimed by its manufacturers to be able to detect many things and substances at long ranges. "

    Sound familiar?

    Now check out these conflicting statements from GeoResonance Pty. Ltd.

    If it takes them 7-12 weeks to survey 1000 km2, how did they survey 2,327,000 km2 in 26 days?




    Qui bono?

    Pump and dump.  A group buys a penny shares company and then either gets a licence or pretends to get a licence to explore a region for minerals.  Using "our unique technology" the company claims that it is "on to something" which, by spam email and other campaigns boosts the share price.  In the original scam the originators dump their shares on a high.  In a subtle new version, pump-dump-pump-dump, a block of shares is sold on a rise and then partly repurchased by collaborators.  The share graph no longer points to a classic pump and dump, so the high lasts longer, enabling the scammers to make even more money.  The graph of share prices has some of the qualities of a damped oscillation, but the trend, as in a phugoid oscillation, is inexorably downhill.

    There are many penny shares company websites claiming that with their "proprietary technology" they can find valuable minerals.  If you dig only a little you will find that the land in many cases is the location of an exhausted well or mine.

    Further investigation is a matter for the law enforcement agencies in the appropriate countries.
    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    Just found this new press release from GeoResonance bowing out of the public arena. Here are some excerpts :- 
    It is surprising that some media commentators whom have not heard of the technology or do not have an understanding of quantum physics dismiss the technology outright. GeoResonance is not attempting to educate the world on its technological capabilities. The GeoResonance goal was to offer its findings to Government search authorities. 
    GeoResonance understands the Bay of Bengal is not in the JACC (Perth) search zone and the JACC is extremely busy. The JACC is working in extremely difficult conditions and GeoResonance hope they are successful in the very near future. 
    GeoResonance feels the objective of alerting Government authorities to their findings has been achieved and do not seek any further publicity. The Directors of GeoResonance would like to thank the media who were involved in highlighting this lead to the authorities. 
    The GeoResonance team continue to wish the authorities all the very best in their endeavours to locate the missing aircraft and take this opportunity to pass on our heartfelt condolences to all of the families affected by this truly tragic event.
    My article about researchers identifying a potential blue green algae cause & L-Serine treatment for Lou Gehrig's ALS, MND, Parkinsons & Alzheimers is at http://www.science20.com/forums/medicine
    Patrick,
    Before judging the plausibility of the method, check out "Earth's Field NMR". Wikipedia's "Proton Magnetometer" entry also mentions how that method has been used to locate underwater metal objects. Also, the penetration depth of NMR frequencies is pretty much unrelated to optical clarity. Not too surprising, since optical frequencies are a trillion times higher, and absorption is governed by Rayleigh scattering rather than ohmic absorption. In fact, Earth's field NMR of the materials quoted by Georesonance are in the same range as ELF (extremely low) signals chosen for submarine communication, precisely because such low frequencies CAN penetrate deep seawater. There are concerns based on signal-to-noise considerations, but given that the method is claimed to have a military pedigree, technical sophisitication and ingenuity is likely to be quite high.
    If GeoResonance's findings turn out to be relevant, an entire gallery of really important faces will be covered with lots of egg: plenty of incentive to discredit this particular messenger.

    Tex Pepper
    Hello Gamma,

    You wrote, "... Earth's field NMR of the materials quoted by Georesonance are in the same range as ELF (extremely low) signals chosen for submarine communication, precisely because such low frequencies CAN penetrate deep seawater. There are concerns based on signal-to-noise considerations, but given that the method is claimed to have a military pedigree, technical sophisitication and ingenuity is likely to be quite high."

    It won't save them. Trust me.

    The strength of the geomagnetic field in the Bay of Bengal is around 44 uT. At this field strength the Larmor frequency is on the order of 2 kHz and so, yes, the frequency of an EFNMR signal at that location falls within the ELF band. And yes, the ELF band is used for (one-way) submarine communication because of its ability to penetrate seawater somewhat, the useful depth depending on the particular frequency used.

    The ELF frequencies used by the U.S. and Russia are both under 100 Hz. The U.S. used a frequency of 76 Hz and Russia, 82 Hz. Yet even at these extremely low frequencies the useful depth in seawater is limited to around 200 metres or so. According to Google Earth, the depth at the 'wreckage site' claimed by GeoResonance is around 660 metres, roughly three times deeper than the depth at which a much-lower frequency (by two orders of magnitude) is detectable by the latest state-of-the-art military receivers. Moreover, 660 metres for the depth at the wreckage site is conservative given that some sources are quoting up to 1100 metres' depth at that location.

    Because of its high conductivity seawater strongly attenuates EM radiation. The higher the frequency, the more pronounced the attenuation. How much? Let's look at the numbers:



    For a 2 kHz signal the attenuation is around 4.9 dB/meter. Multiplying that by the depth gives us a net attenuation of 3226 dB! So what does this mean?

    What it means is that for every 3 dB of attenuation the signal strength decreases by half. Another 3 dB attenuation, half again, and so on until we've halved the original signal 3226/3 ~ 1075 times. In other words, by the time that signal has traveled through 660 metres of seawater its strength is, for all practical purposes, zero. No amount of ingenuity now or in the forseeable future will be able to detect such a signal. Nor is this their only problem. It gets worse.

    GR claims to have identified the composition of various materials at the 'wreckage site,' some materials inside what they're guessing is an aluminium fuselage and wings. Copper, for instance, suggesting copper wire. Now, even if they were using EFNMR and even if they were sitting on the very fuselage itself, they would not detect anything inside. Not using EFNMR they wouldn't. Why not? Basic physics: what is an aluminium fuselage to a radio wave originating inside? A Faraday cage?

    Most of us have a Faraday cage sitting on our kitchen counters: a microwave oven. The one in my kitchen is an 1100-watt unit. It is so effective as a Faraday cage that, in spite of the power levels inside, scarcely enough leaks out to pose a hazard. The same principles apply to a 2 kHz EFNMR signal - a very weak signal to begin with, even under ideal circumstances - originating inside a metallic aircraft fuselage. You'll never see it, even if you were there at the wreckage site directly. One might object, "But what of the windows? Won't it leak it out those?" No, and for the same reason it does not leak out the little holes in the window of a microwave oven: the holes are too small for the wavelengths in question.

    These same problems apply to detecting hydrocarbons indicative of jet fuel, jet fuel presumably still in the tanks? If those tanks contain jet fuel, then they're not leaking, and if they're not leaking, then they must be intact, yes? And assuming they are intact, those tanks are also Faraday cages, very good ones in fact. Nor are these their only problems. It gets worse.

    That EFNMR instrument must actually be there, on site to ping the sample with an EM pulse in order to get that telltale 2 kHz signal. In the case of GR's claims of having detected copper and jet fuel, that pinger has to be inside the fuselage and inside the fuel tanks where the signal is. As far as I know GR hasn't so much as dipped their toes in the water, much less sent hardware to the bottom to collect their data (and if so, where are the photos?). Those materials are not going to radiate 2 kHz signals all by themselves, and pinging them from the surface will have the same problems with attenuation as we discussed earlier, even if it were practical.

    Given these obstacles, GR could not have used any form of NMR to identify the composition of that wreckage through 660 metres of seawater. They would have to be magicians, magicians able to bend the laws of Physics and, if they are magicians, then this raises other questions as well. For instance:

    If GR can remotely detect aircraft wreckage at the bottom of the sea with such clarity and to such an extent as to actually identify the composition of materials in that wreckage, then why aren't the world's militaries clamoring for their technology to detect and ID submerged submarines - most which operate at much shallower depths than that at which this presumed wreckage lies? Governments have spent hundreds of billions on ways to locate The Other Sides's subs and would they pass up the chance to acquire such a marvelous technology as GR claims they possess? Hopefully before the Other Guys do?

    Why aren't GR using their technology to locate valuable mineral and hydrocarbon deposits and securing these tenements for their own gain? Oil? Diamonds? Gold? Platinum? Uranium? According to their website they've found them all. Are GR in business for purely altruistic reasons?

    "Here, Chevron, for a small fee how's about we find you a billion-dollar patch of oil somewhere so that you can get rich off our efforts? Waddayasay? (oh, by the way, we're not in it for the money)."

    So many things about GR's claims make no sense. It all smells so fishy that even my cats are interested!

    Best,
    Tex
    "I was going to change my shirt, but I changed my mind instead" -- Winnie the Pooh
    Another nobody with an opinion here :)
    Instead of wasting energies in refuting what these people have to say, why not just check it out? If it is as shallow as indicated, then would it really cost so much more than they're already spending to just check it out? Millions (billions yet?) have already been spent with no results other than some promising pings, which supposedly *could* be accounted for by other means than the jet's pingers. So just do it, instead of in 2 years from now, someone perhaps finding something leading to that area and saying, jeez we should have given them more credit... and jeez, look how this report and that report combined with this satellite and that radar all fall into place to create the story of what happened.
    I am in Toronto and I recall when our new 'skydome' was being built. The first retractable covered stadium - amazing. They went ahead and built it at huge expense, but extremely qualified experts were all the while saying that it was an absolute impossibility that it could work as planned once completed. Man, would I feel stupid if I was one of those qualified experts who had publicly pronounced that and then been proven wrong when the project was completed. But amazingly, people seem to forget. For whatever reasons, not all experts see the same possibilities, and perhaps it is the difference between closed minds and open minds... something not being explained just 'so'... some kind of argument with what is being read, but not having the opportunity to clarify it which could potentially alleviate a misunderstanding/miscommunication, so that all are on the same page.
    Just as the search team is refusing to think about other possibilities solely based on having heard the pings in a certain area. Closed minds. I read somewhere that earthquakes and tsunamis (sp? sorry!) can roll around for years in the depths of the oceans and they can also somehow have those soundwaves in them.
    Just get it done instead of being wrapped up in closed minds and egos, the world needs this jet to be found! If there is nothing there.. at least we'll know there's nothing there! (Perhaps like we know there is nothing where they've already spent millions looking!)

    The problem with that idea is if we did everything every nutjob in the world said whenever there is a problem, then we would no longer be able to get any real work done. Once authorities show they are willing to entertain the likes of this GR outfit, instead of scrutinizing them, more and more of their kind will come creeping out of the woodwork to snag a piece of the pie and profit off the tragedy, until there is nothing left for anyone to do the real things that could actually work.

    infernus006, well of course, we can't followup with EVERY nutjob's fantasies, but from what 'EYE' gave read, the reason why the search team is eagerly discounting GR's and others' claims of sightings and etc., is because of those danged pings. They put all of their faith first in the satellite company's calculations (which they STILL refuse to make public so that they can be verified by peers (what are they afraid of???)), and then in the pings.. even though the pings did not have the exact frequency of a black box. I have also read that no, the pings should still be the same frequency. And then that those pings could have come from other things.
    To me, it is like the criminal investigation where the police believe they know who did the crime, and so they only narrow in fully on the tips that are leading to their belief, and we all know that this has completely ruined catching the real purp by the time it all comes to light. Opportunities missed due to closed minds and large egos. At least have a team looking into these other theories and how they might mesh with other tips to potentially create a viable second option... especially since they are getting nowhere at all with the one they believe in.

    And,.... another nobody here :) What is most surprising to me is how egos get in the way. Today marks the beginning of the 3rd month of this search. Even the "experts" are re-evaluating their calculations and their best assumptions. To the other "nobody with an opinion", I agree wholeheartedly. "Just get it done!"
    Just a though: instead of wasting your time pounding your chests; maybe, lift your fingers from the keyboard and send positive thoughts and/or prayers to the families & friends of those who boarded Flight 370.

    Also to Gamma, Bingo! (a commoners game which can be explained in Wikipedia for those who've never played).

    Tex Pepper
    Hello Patrick,

    You wrote: "... It seems that Georesonance was previously selling "Geo-resonance rejuvenation".  The site owner was Alma Sander-Landis, self-described as "Developer and Master Geo-Resonance Technician".

    I'm just wondering if Geo-resonance and GeoResonance are in fact two distinct, unrelated entities? I searched online and could not find any connection between the former site's owner and the company GeoResonance Pty Ltd.

    Best,
    Tex
    "I was going to change my shirt, but I changed my mind instead" -- Winnie the Pooh