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    Don't Stop The Presses: Energy Conservation Law Questioned
    By Sascha Vongehr | September 14th 2010 11:12 PM | 21 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Sascha

    Dr. Sascha Vongehr [风洒沙] studied phil/math/chem/phys in Germany, obtained a BSc in theoretical physics (electro-mag) & MSc (stringtheory)...

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    Does my space-plunger sound profound?  It isn’t.  That space absorbs energy is confusing talk.  You could desperately try to make it work:  Firstly, the “space-plunger” is not moving slowly and the energy lost is partially recovered in the kinetic energy of the expanding space.  There is also energy in the gravitational potential, but it is negative, so it cancels the energy being created when a universe comes into existence.  Adding all up, the total energy of the universe may be zero, if you fudge it until you get zero.  Sounds profound?  It isn't.


    Energy conservation just does not hold in general relativity (GR).  It is replaced by Tuv;u = 0, where Tuv is called stress-energy tensor, but T does not include gravitational potential energy, because there is no gravity force in GR; there is only space-time curvature.




    Primordial nucleosynthesis depends on how the universe was expanding during the first 3 min after inflation, which depends on how the energy density changed then.  That energy is not conserved in an expanding universe is vital to getting the predictions of nucleosynthesis correct.


    Energy conservation only holds on a static background with time-translation invariance.  But in GR, space evolves with time.  If we keep track of an amount of black body radiation, the energy per photon decreases due to redshift, however, the number of photons stays constant, and so the energy decreases!

    Accelerated expansion is modeled by dark energy of about 10-10 J/m3Dark energy is orthodox general relativity applied to the observed accelerating expansion of the universe!  "Dark" means merely that it is not stuff that reveals itself by emission of light like stars do.

    We get more and more of this energy the more the empty space expands.  Energy is not conserved.  Science never claimed that energy is holy juice rather than a constant under certain symmetries.  Energy is Not Golden Holy Cow Urine

    A nice reference on energy non-conservation in GR is:
    Edward R. Harrison: "Mining Energy in an Expanding Universe." Astrophysical Journal 446, p.63-66 (1995)

    Comments

    Johannes Koelman
    Sascha -- so it is possible to create a perpetuum mobile, you just have to make it big enough! Well, it seems you are even saying it is not just a possibility, we actually live in a giant perpetuum mobile! (he, he... you knew this was coming ;) The assumed absence of boundary terms in General Relativity seems to me to be the source of a lot of confusion.
    vongehr
    Well, the universe as such is a sort of perpetuum mobile of course, especially if we come from the second law of thermodynamics angle. On the other hand, "to create a perpetuum mobile, you just have to make it big enough" sounds like you approach this from a kind of "continuous cycle while extracting energy" angle, and in that case, no.

    "The assumed absence of boundary terms in General Relativity seems to me to be the source of a lot of confusion."

    Not sure about this. I have no problems with a truly fundamental theory lacking boundaries. Whether it is fundamental is of course in doubt.
    Can spacetime (GR) be fundamental when we have a *5xD* ADS theory and a *4D* CFT theory which are exactly dual? Not to mention an "entropic" gravity theory which also may be dual to GR??

    vongehr
    Depends on what you feel fundamental means. GR looks like the thermodynamics of an underlying microcosm (read: not fundamental), on the other hand, the very basis of physics is irreversible observation, so thermodynamics is in a sense more fundamental than statistical physics. After all, only those types of possible (in the sense of direct realism) statistical physics can be observed that will lead to emergence of thermodynamics much as we know it. Duality belongs here to the fundamental basis!
    So, in order to answer what your question may actually intend to ask: Where GR is in this framework does not really affect energy conservation, which is tied to time translation symmetry.
    Howdy. As a 'science enthusiast' with no qualifications in the physical sciences, please permit a few hopefully 'not too dumb' questions here. First up, dark energy. Having waded through articles like that at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy, the stuff must apparently have a negative pressure (on the basis that it's energy increases proportionate to total volume). Another online article (can't place it now) uses the analogy of stretched rubber bands joining all particles - "just like gravity". Huh? Going back to Sascha's 'space plunger' setup http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/blog/spaceplunger, suppose we first modify it by adding a gas of say free electrons. There is repulsion between all the like charges and surely we agree this positive pressure acts to expand the piston. Add in gravitating mass and now we have a negative pressure component partially offsetting the positive pressure. Now add dark energy. How the hell does it manage the feat of adding to accelerating the piston outwards while simultaneously being a negative pressure ('stretched rubber-bands' between all particles)?! Comments please.

    vongehr
    "Another online article (can't place it now) uses the analogy of stretched rubber bands joining all particles - just like gravity"
    Out of context I cannot be sure, but it tastes nutty.

    "There is repulsion between all the like charges and surely we agree this positive pressure acts to expand the piston."
    Agreed (if the piston is non metallic and all that - but I get your point)!

    "Add in gravitating mass and now we have a negative pressure component partially offsetting the positive pressure."
    The mass may pull all the electrons in via gravity and thus it indeed offsets their direct pressure that acted onto the plunger, which is very light and not much attracted to the mass. However, the pressure inside, especially at the massive body where the electrons are held, is very high. This pressure adds to the gravitational force. There is no negative pressure here. It is all positive pressure, but its distribution is now inhomogeneous inside the volume, so it does not hit the plunger anymore.

    "Now add dark energy. How the hell does it manage the feat of adding to accelerating the piston
    "
    It does not act on the piston at all. Similar to the electrons kept at the massive body: they are all decoupled from the piston. The negative pressure adds repulsion to the gravity, just like the positive pressure that was added via the massive body increased the gravity. But this repulsion does not act on the light plunger.

    By the way: The added repulsion is completely negligible as long as electrons and the massive body are still there. So lets throw the electrons and all else out. Now there is only dark energy. Its pressure (onto itself, not the plunger!) is negative, therefore the gravity repulses, and the space expands, but that does still not move the plunger! The space expands right through the plunger.

    What I wrote is that expanding/contracting space is a kind of plunger in that it takes the same amount of energy out of the photons as a plunger would also do.
    Hi Sascha and thanks for your comments. Looks like I needed to be more careful with words. By "add in gravitational mass" it was meant to include the tiny negative gravitational contribution to pressure p from each of those electrons - ie p total = p electric + p grav, not some massive gravitating object, presumably understood by you to be at the left end of the cylinder. As a minor perturbation we assume the gas remains uniformly dense and hence there is coupling to the piston. The point being attractive force means negative p component.

    With that out of the way, your two key points seems to be:
    ".....Now there is only dark energy. Its pressure (onto itself, not the plunger!) is negative, therefore the gravity repulses, and the space expands, but that does still not move the plunger! The space expands right through the plunger."
    Sorry but to me the first point seems directly contradictory to the analogy with the charged and weakly gravitating gas. An electron gas exerts a positive electric pressure on itself and therefore undergoes accelerated expansion (if unbounded). Ergo gravitational attraction adds a tiny negative repulsion and therefore negative acceleration component. And dark energy can somehow exert a negative self-pressure yet expand? Seems weird to say the least! I'm trying to imagine some reconciliation via the equivalence principle (taken here to mean all forms of energy gravitate 'equally'). But this surely implies a dark energy negative energy density in order to have a negative gravity effect. Yet it is taken to have positive energy density. I'm at a loss!

    Regarding your second key point - granting the spatial expansion under dark energy, should not the piston be 'swept up' with the expanding space (tiny tiny effect, I know), by analogy with what happens re accelerated expansion of universe? In which case such motion of matter is merely an apparent repulsion and not some 'actual' anti-gravity force?
    Way past bedtime here in Oz!

    vongehr
    By "add in gravitational mass" you can mean another mass or you can imagine cranking up the mass of the electrons, that is the same (even if you crank it up by considering the maybe formerly neglected gravity due to the pressure).

    Pressure is pressure. Gravity is gravity (curvature of space-time, metric expansion). Gravity is not negative pressure just because it may on occasion pull on a plunger or clump together a gas and thus keep it from hitting a plunger. The plunger can be massless as far as I am concerned (Pressure = Force/Area = mass acceleration / Area = 0).

    "The point being attractive force means negative p component."
    No! The pressure may be even higher than before (depending on how you "add" the gravity, electrons may collide more often), it just starts to decouple from the plunger (electrons collide less with it).
    (it is a clumping, indeed, so if you assume small perturbation and density to be the same, what you actually do is set the gravitation you just added to zero again)

    "to imagine some reconciliation via the equivalence principle"
    All you need to be clear about is that pressure is part of the pressure energy tensor, i.e. part of the physical source of what happens in general relativity, one side of the Einstein equation. Gravity is on the other side, and it is not a source. It does not somehow walk around to the other side and become pressure, it is plain curvature in space-time. It is non-linear and so on, so it looks to us like a force that self-interacts (= being its own source).
    "By "add in gravitational mass" you can mean another mass or you can imagine cranking up the mass of the electrons, that is the same."
    Neither. Just include the actual gravitational attraction between charges, additional to and of opposite sign to the electrical repulsion. The latter we agree exerts a positive pressure, the former very slightly reduces that and so is surely at least an *effective* negative pressure component. There is no 'clumping' on the scale of the space-plunger (unless it is imagined to be light-years across, and net electric charge eliminated!).

    "...pressure is part of the pressure energy tensor, i.e. part of the physical source of what happens in general relativity, one side of the Einstein equation. Gravity is on the other side, and it is not a source."

    Well OK but dark energy pressure is therefore a source of gravitation which then should act on any matter present? And if the pressure is negative, what sign the gravitational contribution?

    Rather than respond to each further point you make, perhaps we can look at the issue by way of the well worn "expanding rubber balloon with a uniform distribution of spots on it" 2D analogue to the expanding 3D universe filled with uniformly dispersed matter. In fact first just consider the static case where internal gas pressure is matched precisely by uniform skin tension. To avoid any ambiguity here, positive tension is defined as that which tends to collapse the balloon (decelerating expansion if there were no internal gas pressure balance). Imagine that in addition to the smooth and uniform elastic tension in the rubber skin ("dark energy"!?), the spots each carry a hypothetical 2D acting electric + gravitational charge. We agree the effect of such charges (all of the same sign) is to add an *effective* skin tension component - negative skin tension for the electric component, positive tension for the gravitational component? Yes? No?

    Assuming a 'yes' we agree on *effective* positive tension arising from gravitational interactions here. Dispense now with static balance - the balloon is instantly fully evacuated and is in purely dynamical balance 'just like the real universe'. There is only one component tending to expand the balloon - the *effective* negative tension arising from like electric charges. Gravitational *effective* positive tension acts with the *same sign* as the 'real' elastic skin tension (read Dark Energy in the 3D case) - tending to collapse the balloon. Pretty obvious.

    The whole point of this is to contrast what I see as the *sign problem* of dark energy (3D *negative* pressure corresponds to balloon 2D *positive* tension).
    Cheers.

    vongehr
    Maybe my comment was badly written, I have just slightly improved it (but not so much as to make your further comment not fitting anymore I hope.)

    "and so is surely at least an *effective* negative pressure component."
    No.

    "There is no 'clumping' on the scale of the space-plunger
    "
    Yes there is. Any gravity will slightly increase the density in the center. That is the decoupling. [You do not see this in your example because the gas is charged (why actually, just use a normal gas). So, your electrons are already not homogeneous inside the volume but distribute along the walls.]

    I think you have to just consider my previous comment more carefully or start looking into a text book on general relativity. You are plainly confusing gravity/space-time curvature/ metric expansion with pressure/expanding of material and so on.

    The balloon picture is no help here. The universe is globally flat as far as we can tell.
    You are right, gravity due to energy density is one and negative pressure from dark energy is another one, and both want to contract the balloon. However, the balloon skin is mostly empty (if it is to be somewhat like our universe), so overall the first guy is negligible. The second one leads to repulsive gravity stronger than what he pulls. It is really frustrating, maybe the darkness of dark energy: The more it tries to pull, the faster the space expands.
    "However, the balloon skin is mostly empty (if it is to be somewhat like our universe), so overall the first guy is negligible. The second one leads to repulsive gravity stronger than what he pulls. It is really frustrating, maybe the darkness of dark energy: The more it tries to pull, the faster the space expands."

    Thanks for the insights. Weird stuff - dark energy balloons as solution to world energy needs - ha ha.
    BTW found the link to that original comment about DE likened to rubber bands:
    http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/acceleron_darkenergy_040727.html

    Cheers

    Back again. Took awhile to sink in but if I now have it right, pressure as a source of gravitation in GR is taken as something over and above any energy

    change associated with that pressure. For instance, the hydrostatic energy density resulting from self compression within a gravitating object such as a

    star is part of the 'rho' energy density source of further gravity, but the pure 'p' contribution is *additional* to the 'rho from p' contribution.

    Correct? (It is understood that by SR a flowing medium under pressure has an associated additional energy and momentum, but here we consider the

    'static' case). Put simply, the 'p' contribution is entirely independent of the medium on which it acts. Yes?

    vongehr
    Dear Kev, although I would not put it in these words, but it seems what you are thinking is pretty much exactly right and might have been the main problem - sorry for not recognizing this before; I was distracted by the focus on metric expansion. It is by the way maybe the strangest part of general relativity, and I myself am not sure whether I already understand it the proper way or whether some day I will slap my forehead. But you are right, we tend to see energy as something, mass, but pressure as basically nothing by itself, just the colliding of atoms, more like a name than a real physical quantity. How can pressure alone lead to gravity? I think it is best understood by firstly admitting that the question of why energy should curve space-time is almost just as weird (one could maybe accept this by thinking that energy "is" curved space-time, "particles are knots of space time"). The next step is to realize that SR already forces us to think in terms of space-time. Curved space alone will not give you gravity; curvature involving the time direction is vital. Then the next step could be to look at pressure as such, its units and what it means in terms of a current (momentum flow of the colliding gas particles for example), then realize that energy is in relation to time what momentum is in relation to spatial dimensions (Pressure involves a momentum current, flow involves time, just to facilitate a dimensional comparison involving units, don't forget the speed of light factors c), and then slap one's forehead and go "aha". But I admit, I would like a more intuitive picture here myself.
    Appreciate your feedback Sascha - it answers some negative thoughts I was harboring :). I don't pretend to grasp the intricacies of GR - the tensor math behind all those "goo's", "Too's", "Fuv's" etc is outside my very limited math training. My bent is to look hard at the physical consequences and see if there may be overlooked new consequence. With that in mind, while taking your points about pressure involving considerations of both time and space (dp/dt/A), is it not so pressure and pressure-generated energy density are dimensionally and functionally different, the latter being to a first approximation a quadratic function of the former? Yet they seem to share an equal footing so to speak as sources of g. Making the assumption that the 'pure p' term is identical whether we are talking about, say, hydrogen gas, or diamond (with vastly different hydrostatic energy densities) under stress, it seems to lead to 'paradoxes'. At a minimum these stem from the apparent ability to shift the center of active, passive, and inertial mass in a way defying Newton's laws. Allow me to explain with what may seem a naive example.

    Firstly, from the foregoing, assume that stressing a notionally incompressible medium alters the net active gravitational mass (and assuming the WEP holds, passive and inertial mass alter accordingly), all with no energy input. Sure, by SR a medium cannot be absolutely incompressible. But that is beside the point - the 'pure p' contribution is assumed independent of medium compressibility, the 'rho from p' contribution is not. So lets take the case of a notionally incompressible medium, and conduct the following thought experiment (and many variants suggest themselves!):

    A square shaped hoop made of a 'perfectly rigid' solid lies in the plane of the page, two sides being vertical, two horizontal. Midway along the vertical side on the right, a gap is formed by cutting through horizontally, and a double-lobed cam mechanism inserted. When rotated, the cam stresses the remaining material in that side under compression ('In practice' twin counter-rotated cams would eliminate torque induced by a single cam. Or if you like, a wedge and 'G'-clamp arrangement could be used.). An equal and opposite tensile stress must appear in the vertical side on the left, conveyed via bending and shear stresses in the horizontal sides. As is well known bending and shear stresses can be resolved into equal amounts of tensile and compressive stress, collinear for bending and orthogonal for shear. Which means the horizontal sides contribute nothing net to 'pure p' gravity. By contrast the vertical sides do contribute but with opposite signs - a gravitational dipole is born! (That the stress distributions will not be quite as clean-cut as above described is of no real consequence)

    Next, mount the (unstressed) hoop on a vertical shaft running midway through both horizontal sides, the shaft itself mounted in frictionless bearings. A gravitational field g - lets say earth gravity - acts normal to the plane of the hoop ('into the page'). In the unstressed state there is perfect balance and no tendency for the hoop to rotate. But now lets stress the hoop via the cam(s). Assuming WEP holds then the 'active mass' dipole Pma now created is matched by a corresponding 'passive mass' dipole Pmp - the vector lying horizontally in the page. Hence there is rotation as the heavier right side falls towards the earth. Formally at least there is a cross product Pmp X g resulting in a torque about the vertical axis. We could arrange to cycle the stressing so as to cyclically build up angular velocity and thus energy. At all times the hoop stresses responsible for the 'dipole' Pmp act normal to the earth's gravity. Even if they weren't, and we relax the assumption of perfect rigidity, a sensible coupling mechanism *of the correct order* and capable of rescuing the conservation of energy seems not here feasible.

    And there is 'paradox' apart from a 'curved space-time' interaction. Dispense with earth gravity. By WEP the foregoing 'pure p' active/passive mass dipole Pma/Pmp also has a corresponding inertial mass dipole Pmi. By SR this implies a frame dependent and thus completely indeterminate angular momentum. And it can be switched on and off at will! Wow! Would the universe disappear to preserve itself?

    So does GR actually admit a genuine perpetuum mobile etc, or is there a hidden assumption barring solids from being a 'pure p' source? All of the above collapses in ignominy if so. But is it so? Well here I am with a target on my chest. So shoot!

    vongehr
    I bail out at this point. I am a little too busy to consider incompressible fluids that SR forbids with pressures inside although they do not react to pressure (incompressible) to prove that GR is a perpetual motion machine.
    Testing...testing...1 2 3. Not sure if this thread is officially defunct, or if anyone gets notifications of a new entry. If no and yes respectively, would like to revive it but await for signs of life before proceeding.

    vongehr
    crrr - crrrkck - helo hello - it is alive - I revived it after the blogging software shut it down automatically.
    But I bailed out as I wrote and there is still no way I gona get back into this compressible fluids mess.
    Hi Sascha - best for 2013 and yes it has been a long time and no won't bring up incompressible fluids. Still there is something about p as source term(s) in T (stress-energy tensor) that imo just doesn't look at all Kosher. Up to you whether to here this out but will present it anyhow. Moving right away from exotic dark energy, suppose we consider a mundane example involving just the usual elastic stresses in a solid. A straight and uniform elastic rod set into fundamental axial mode vibration - sinusoidal stretching and compressing along rod symmetry axis. I think we agree this constitutes primarily a linear mass-quadrupole oscillator (superposed on the rod static mass term). So according to GR we expect to have an exceedingly weak but finite source of quadrupolar GW's (gravitational waves) - plus much weaker higher moment contributions - but with exactly zero contribution from lower order moments (monopole and dipole terms).

    Given a fundamental frequency of rod free oscillation f, and assuming negligible damping, then the standard GR formula predicts an overwhelmingly dominant contribution to GW output will be at frequency f and owing to the rod time-changing mass quadrupole moment of amplitude Q ~ MR^2 ( M the rod mass, R the axial excursion amplitude) e.g. aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p139/homework/hw12.pdf (sec't 3.1). This stems from the momentum flow-rate term T0i (or Ti0) in T, or rather it's time derivatives.

    A very much smaller addition can be expected at a frequency 2f owing to the quadratic (in velocity, stress) contributions to T00 (time-time energy term) from Kinetic energy of axial motion and elastic energy of axial compression/tension, respectively. Although these terms add at all times to give a constant total energy, they are in phase quadrature and moreover their distributions are not spatially coincident - cosinusoidal vs sinusoidal wrt axial location along the rod. Given that at any given instant both the KE & PE densities are of the same sign all along the rod, this implies a dominant monopole, not quadrupole contribution from each! (Yes I know standard GR position says such terms cannot be present or must always cancel - but where and how?)

    What of the notional contribution from axial rod stress 'all by itself'? Well firstly, unlike the stress contribution to elastic energy which is generally a quadratic function of stress, 'pure' stress term Tii evidently fluctuates at frequency f, not 2f. Hence if there is any GW output from fluctuating Tii, it will be at frequency f. Just as for the dominant T0i contribution. So what, you may be thinking - all this must have been well understood from near the dawn of GR. Maybe not really. Thing is, if one inspects the spatial distribution of the axial Tii term, what do we see? The rod fluctuates between essentially half-sinusoidal tensile and compressive stress distributions - with maxima clearly at the rod centre and zero at rod ends.

    Again, so what you are thinking. Well although a spatial half-sinusoidal distribution constitutes a multipole moment, it must be clear that, just as for the above KE & PE terms, by far the dominant Tii contributed term re GW generation will be a monopole moment - *necessarily so since the stress distribution at any given instant is all of the one sign*. In the case of uniform pressure (uniform triaxial stress) it is customary to simply sum for each component scalar-like. Implying that uniaxial stress acts like a scalar contribution also. Do I need to spell out what that implies? It spells out *GW monopole radiation* - owing to the Tii 'pure stress' term alone!

    Quite apart from the f vs 2f frequency difference owing to Tii and T00 source terms above discussed, other factors preclude cancellation of the T0i monopole moment contribution term by any of the others (KE/PE T00 terms in particular). For example, make the rod N times stiffer: Young's modulus E -> NE (but same mass density), and we easily find that if peak stress amplitudes are held constant, all the other multipole amplitudes owing to terms - T0i and T00's, tend to zero as N, and thus E, tends high. Necessarily so since the vibrational amplitude declines as 1/E. Thus fundamental mass quadrupole moment Q, and KE/PE amplitudes, will decline (frequency f rises as sqrt(N), but that applies to all terms). Of course monopole and quadrupole terms will have very different frequency dependence (f^2 vs f^6 respectively) - but this is only an issue if one has already conceded the existence of non-zero monopole terms! Anyway this all highlights the strangeness of the Tii term as GW source - 'magically' there is no direct relation to E, as stress and stress alone counts, quite divorced from energy density. Such is the purported character of stress 'all by itself'. When I last checked, three differing monotonic functions can meet (or cancel) at one point at most. Go figure.

    If this has been followed without going crossed-eyed, the obvious objection (thrown at me in a prominent physics forum site) seems to be, as afore mentioned, that it can't be true. Since in GR the stress-energy tensor is automatically a conserved quantity and together with conservation of momentum, this 'guarantees' only quadrupolar and higher moments can survive re GW generation. Well as a layman I am certainly no GR expert but if the latter is true then there sure appears to be a clear philosophical/logical conflict here given that in the obviously weak (ultra-weak really) gravity regime pertaining to a rod oscillator, it surely is legitimate to cleanly separate out the various T contributions. Contributions with e.g. markedly different functional dependence on material parameters, and generating markedly different multipole moments.

    In summary, best I can tell example of an axially vibrating rod confronts one with a dichotomy. Looked at in terms of individual T contributions, there are 'forbidden' low-order GW multipole terms, including monopole terms at two differing frequencies. This is forbidden in GR and so I am told cannot be an issue when the standard GR method of solving such a scenario is adopted. Maybe so according to standard GR, but imo this implies stress-energy contributions must be made to do some truly bizarre gymnastics, even in the limit of very weak gravity/energy regime. Seems more likely one needs to take a harder look at whether 'pure' stress terms really do contribute as gravitational source and hence whether stress should be excised from the stress-energy tensor. Is there actually any hard observational evidence pure stress/pressure does contribute as per T implies?

    This still leaves the matter of apparent monopole contributions from the undoubtedly real T00 elastic energy and KE contributions, but I consider that secondary to the role of stress here.
    OK so the stats suggest I'm utterly wrong-headed and this little piece has justly earned a crackpot label, but then again an intelligent critique following a thoughtful read would be appreciated. Either way, not something to stress over :)

    I'll put it down to writing up and posting last entry of 01/04/13 (pleasant surprise it made it into print! - thanks Sascha) to sweltering 40+ Celsius heat. My excuse anyway for making a number of basic errors. Firstly, claims there that KE + PE T00 terms generate a net GW monopole moment in a vibrating rod was wrong - only quadrupole and higher moments will result and that's to be expected given non-linear nature of EFE's.
    Secondly, had used the wrong formula when calculating contributions from mass-quadrupole (Ti0 term) vs stress-monopole (Tii term). The appropriate formula for net rms GW emission power W owing to a mass-spring linear quadrupole oscillator is given by eq'n (53) in sect'n 3.1 of aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p139/homework/hw12.pdf,
    and boils down to W(rms) ~ a^2w^6 - where a is the vibrational displacement amplitude, and w = 2*pi*f is the angular
    frequency. Then turns out that rms GW power for both mass-quadrupole and stress-monopole contributions have the same functional dependence on parameters young's modulus, and material density, and also on vibrational amplitude. Damm it!

    So what's left to argue? Well clearly the angular distributions are totally different - isotropic intensity for a monopole term vs a (sin(theta))^4 distribution for conventional quadrupole GW field. Not to mention that monopole component must be purely radial vs purely transverse for quadrupole field. In hindsight I picked the wrong scenario to evaluate. How about that of an radially oscillating spherical elastic shell? Birkhoff's theorem in effect states radial oscillation cannot result in any propagation of gravitational disturbance exterior to the shell. I beg to disagree - if that is stress acts as a source term. In that scenario at least all agree there is precisely zero mass quadrupole moment, by symmetry alone. Further, total energy = KE + elastic PE is a constant, so those terms make no net contribution. But if stress truly is a contributor, there is this huge problem. Shell stresses will obviously periodically alternate between biaxial tension and compression. No question about that. And somehow one can have this periodic stress contribution both present as source term, yet simultaneously nullified by...what?...so as to avoid a periodic monopole excitation? Someone convince me please. I'll say it again - where is the hard observational evidence stress truly is a source of gravity?

    Hey sorry for my tendency to comment on long dead threads :P you make an interesting point and I can't pretend to understand all arguments involving GR/SR as I'm only an a-level student. However isn't it true that for every red shift of black-body radiation there's a blue shift on the other side of the black body? I know this might be one of the "the energy goes over here" arguments you where discouraging but was wondering if this blue shift truly accounts for the loss of energy or if there's a bigger whole in my understanding of red-shift.

    vongehr
    for every red shift of black-body radiation there's a blue shift on the other side of the black body?
    There is no body here that has another side. Black body is a name first of all, and the better term in this case would be cavity radiation (German: Hohlraum Strahlung).

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