Banner
    End Of Joy Christian Affair Or Of Scientific Discourse
    By Sascha Vongehr | June 2nd 2012 09:41 PM | 16 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Sascha

    Dr. Sascha Vongehr [风洒沙] studied phil/math/chem/phys in Germany, obtained a BSc in theoretical physics (electro-mag) & MSc (stringtheory)...

    View Sascha's Profile

    Almost exactly a year ago, I made a medium storm in the water glass by publishing my exchange with what I ironically called the "Future King of Physics". I then asked Perimeter Institute in Canada, Oxford University, and FQXi, to distance themselves from Joy Christian instead of any further supporting his pseudoscience.



    Joy was at his game for several years already, and quite a few voices have told me over the last year, that my article, especially the Quantum Randi Challenge nature of it, is what finally convinced them: for the first time they really confidently understood that Joy is a crackpot. Many had previously gotten the impression that he may be a new Einstein, simply because mathematicians could not understand Joy's equations - at least that is what it looked like in the perception of an audience that grew larger with every new refutation of his work. I refused to give his tricks any platform and destroyed his argument in a way that is immune to any retort with more math. The Quantum Randi Challenge, which is closely related to the argument I then developed and which still needs your support (it is not about Joy but about a powerful public outreach tool!) does not feed the vicious cycle that creates an artificial controversy around settled scientific facts. The QRC is designed to stop the out of hand feedback loops emerging in our culture of discourse, those that pseudo-scientists like to exploit.


    And so, I could, if I were to fool myself and/or played the blogging game like one is largely expected to in this ugly science blogging "scene", write a success story now. 'Look how I helped us super cool bloggers to be the badass skeptics smashing pseudoscience'. In fact, there are now some rather idiotic writers, like wingnut Lubos Motl, who indeed pretend that their personal interference and their same useless arguments that went on for many years at times, were directly instrumental to bringing about Joys downfall. However, it is not so! Actually, science lost!


    If you go back to my article and click on the link that connected to Joy's Perimeter Institute profile, you will not find him anymore. Oxford University starts similar proceedings, so I hear, but it is not because of what should have happened years ago on grounds of scientific discourse. It is not about people standing up against pseudo-science. It is not about those responsible understanding or even caring about my arguments a year ago, or anybody's scientific arguments.


    No - Joy was kicked out because he lately annoyed too many so called "important people"! How did he annoy? Not because he disregards experimental observation. No. Because “important guys” up the hierarchies, similar to those that gave him money not long ago so he could even publish a book, they felt insulted! Neither the many math spewing articles on the archive, nor my destruction from last year ago, which made Joy at least shut up on Science20 and certain physics discussion boards; the real reason is that he dared to be insulting on an "important guy's" blog and then other even more "important guys" apparently were contacted and felt insulted, too. Make no mistake: If Joy had simply had the patience to stay friendly, he would be still as strong as before.


    Though I have asked these "important people" already last year to do precisely what they are now doing, I do certainly not belong to the important guys. In fact, IEET has banned me from further contributing to their "ethics of emerging tech" site, precisely because my destruction of Joy was "unprofessional". So, I, a well published researcher in the emerging field of nanotechnology, cannot write on an "ethics of emergent technology" platform, because I demanded ethical behavior from “important guys”.


    You should not be surprised that an article on the Quantum Randi Challenge is also consistently rejected by "important guys". This censorship is called “scientific peer review”.


    No science here except the modern science that is the corrupt social construct that it is: Whether you get kicked out or not has little to do with proper science. As long as you bring money or exposure or at least have them somehow not being able to reject you without losing face (Joy played them very well for a while!), all is fine. But never criticize the big cheats up in the hierarchies.


    If you know the world and have not arrived here just yesterday, you know that Joy is the tip of the iceberg, but there are two icebergs: One is the many cheaters who live well inside science and draw all kinds of money that serious and conscientious scientists never get. The other: All the people who get kicked out at all levels for plainly having done something that some corrupt guys higher up perhaps merely potentially may not like - perhaps they may feel insulted.

    And as you know, nothing is more insulting than the truth!


    I will go on and whistle blow and insult the "important guys". Stay tuned to this channel, as a much bigger case, the memristor hype, one reminding of the arsenic life form hype, will soon be treated here with a few posts. As you can see, I have bigger fish to fry - the people involved in the Joy Christian case are relatively unimportant compared to high impact factor journals like Nature and Hewlett Packard money.


    So let me wrap up the Joy Christian case in true alphameme style:


    Joy - I am not happy with what happens these days, not at all. If you think I am happy, that I dance in circles like the embarrassing Lubos kid, you simply do not know me half. I would have been a lot happier if you had taken my arguments seriously when I contacted you more than a year ago. I know the physics, I can explain it to you, I know your math, that you wrote to me yourself once, remember? Guess what - your math is actually applicable to something! You and those you fight do not see where, because you are concentrating too much on trying to disprove quantum physics or winning silly little bets instead of on the core of the involved science.


    It is never too late - you are young enough to get yourself together, intelligent, independent, and energetic enough to achieve great feats. I hold no grudge. I welcome those few who have the guts to their own opinion regardless of whether "important people" may feel insulted. I especially welcome people who can seriously change their mind and admit a mistake and move on. Your skills are needed badly - don't waste them.


    And to all others out there: If you think that this went all fine just because Joy does no longer have the support of “important people”, you are very wrong. Think a little deeper guys – you all think you are so smart – why not think a little deeper about what this means for science and academia?


    A last one: If you want to positively impact the mature science side of what can be done to immunize young people against quantum crackpottery, read about the Quantum Randi Challenge, understand it, and support it! It needs your support; you are the important people.

    Comments

    Sascha, thanks very much for saying
    "... Joy was kicked out because he lately annoyed too many so called "important people"! ... Because “important guys” up the hierarchies ... felt insulted! ...
    Whether you get kicked out or not has little to do with proper science ...".

    Personally, I agree with Joy's basic idea of what is the proper mathematical structure to use to describe quantum states
    but
    I disagree with Joy's dislike of quantum computers.

    I agree with Sascha that the result of expulsion of Joy from Perimeter and Oxford is that "... Actually, science lost! ...".

    Maybe the Important People at Perimeter and Oxford will not be bothered by being around somebody they dislike
    but
    this makes it harder for Joy to do physics work (and may cost the physics community some useful ideas that Joy might have had in the future had he not had to deal with ostracism and expulsion),
    not to mention the fact that,
    even though some of his controversial ideas might be wrong, perhaps some of his ideas are correct and useful,
    and
    now that the community sees him as an expelled outlaw it will be afraid to have anything to do with him or his ideas,
    and his present and future ideas will be lost to the physics community.

    This is a very sad state of affairs.

    Tony

    Lex Anderson
    I then asked Perimeter Institute in Canada, Oxford University, and FQXi, to distance themselves from Joy Christian instead of any further supporting his pseudoscience. 
    Hi Sascha, I fully agree that crackpottery is a nuisance, especially when paraded so gaudily as this. In my experience -- and I'm sure you would agree -- it's very easy to get stuck up a tree in attempt to catch a fleeting glimpse of the forest. 

    After reading the articles carefully, I'm not sure if the mistakes in them were deliberate. Certainly if the author's intention was to promulgate a pseudoscientific agenda, would it not be better to bury the deception a little deeper than elementary mistakes in deduction? Having personally corresponded with the author, you may however have a more informed perspective. 

    In the absence of such insight, I must conclude that a few mistakes at the outset lead the author out on a metaphorical limb: one lacking in substance and support yet nonetheless proffering a uniquely stilted view of the problematic.  As such these publications are fully deserving of disproof, refutation and even a little ridicule; but certainly in my mind there is no justification for vitriolic personal attacks. It's this very kind of media-worthy emotional discourse that casts the whole subject in a dim light.
    Guess what - your math is actually applicable to something! You and those you fight do not see where, because you are concentrating too much on trying to disprove quantum physics or winning silly little bets instead of on the core of the involved science. 
    I agree, there is insight to be gained if you can get past the misnomers, mistakes and equally ridiculous heated nonsense in the blogs. I'm sure we would both agree that the important people (you say it's all of us, but I think the group is far more exclusive) must take care to distinguish between the fraudulent fakers and the merely misguided before dragging out the pseudoscience crucifix.
    vongehr
    I'm not sure if the mistakes in them were deliberate. Certainly if the author's intention was to promulgate a pseudoscientific agenda, would it not be better to bury the deception a little deeper than elementary mistakes in deduction? Having personally corresponded with the author, you may however have a more informed perspective.
    You know, you touch on a very important mystery here that I am also quite puzzled about and that is one that goes with all crackpots and religious people, but in the end also with you and me, like if we argue for certain political stuff, say. Lubos, in one of his rare more insightful moments, called it something like intentional self-delusion, I think his words were "you make yourself believe", perhaps a better term than my "rational rationalization". Our brain is made from many sub modules, many engines. Several people have concluded that Joy for example knows that he is wrong. I would say that in this case there is certainly a neural network that indeed completely knows that, but then there are other strong neural networks that make him just not admit this to the rest of himself, and all those parts belong to what makes him who he is! We are all split personalities and our minds are evolved to be rationalization engines - that is sadly all they do. We are all crackpots all day long.
    Hfarmer
    As you so correctly pointed out, this ironically proves what many "crackpots" say.  They say who you know and having powerful friends, or a prestigious position are enough to get your ideas published.   This seems to be the case.  
    Did you not have to spend quite some time and effort to get a paper published while this man was able to publish paper after paper with no difficulty?  Why?  It cannot be said that he is just a better scientist than you because he isn't.   Just because of who he knew. 

    The only thing that makes science different from so many other pursuits, is that eventually the correct ideas win out.  It may take some time, like how long did it take for Atomic theory to become prefered over infinitely divisible matter?   Save for experiment science would be art and a matter of taste.  

    Joy Christian's work is out of style, like last years handbag.   This is not science. 
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    vongehr
    Did you not have to spend quite some time and effort to get a paper published while this man was able to publish paper after paper with no difficulty?
    I sure have huge difficulties to publish papers because of my strange sense to detect errors that others like very much not have mentioned, but in all fairness, you cannot quite say that Joy's papers were lately accepted by peer review. (Nonetheless - I surely would not mind the money he got that allowed him to publish a book and the archive also just published way too long, perhaps still, while I have great difficulties to put anything there, even if it is in my official field.)
    The only thing that makes science different from so many other pursuits, is that eventually the correct ideas win out.
    That is what was true in the past, but there is no proof that this should stay to be that way. With science becoming more complex than anyone can grasp, and with science becoming ever more central to power stabilization etc, ...
    Hfarmer

    (Nonetheless - I surely would not mind the money he got that allowed him to publish a book and the archive also just published way too long, perhaps still, while I have great difficulties to put anything there, even if it is in my official field.) 
    Which one can only hope might make the people in charge of ArXiv closely examine their policies and practices.  I don't think it will, but it should. 
    Science advances as much by mistakes as by plans.
    It is ironic that "... the embarrassing Lubos kid ... dance[s] in circles ..."
    to celebrate the expulsion of Joy from Perimeter/Oxford by
    "... “important guys” up the hierarchies ..." who "... felt insulted! ..."
    while
    Lubos himself may have lost his Harvard position, not because he lacked skill in physics, but because "important guys" at Harvard "felt insulted" by his political support of then-Harvard-President Larry Summers.

    Tony

    PS - Sascha, this is offtopic, but since your PhD was in "nanotechnology ... nontrivial cluster size distributions" I would appreciate any comments you might have on some ideas I am working on - a 524 kb pdf is at
    www.tony5m17h.net/PalladiumClusterFusion.pdf
    Replying to me by email would be OK.

    Sascha,
    Perhaps you could explain if you agree or disagree with Deutsch and Hayden 1999:
    http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9906007
    Information Flow in Entangled Quantum Systems
    (From the beginning of the abstract:
    All information in quantum systems is, notwithstanding Bell's theorem, localised.)

    and Deutsch 2011:
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.6223v1
    Vindication of Quantum Locality.

    There are many other papers in the literature disputing whether Bell’s theorem depends solely on locality, or on locality and something else.
    Also, some make a big deal of the distinction between Einstein locality and Bell locality.
    I, for one, am very confused and would like to hear your take on this matter.
    TIA.
    Jim Graber

    vongehr
    The locality versus non-locality issue suffers very much from people talking past each other. The issue is precisely parallel to determinism. QM is unitary (deterministic), but this means that we have QM indeterminism in the classical (phenomenal) world. QM is Einstein-local (relativistic micro causality), but the QM entanglement between worlds is what leads to QM non-locality in the Bell/EPR etc experiments. Wait a few days for me to post my FQXi second part and you will have precisely this issue described in painful detail.
    Gerhard Adam
    I'm going to be a bit more contrary in this post.  Not because it is wrong, but because it is absolutely correct and I can't help but wonder why such an array of intelligent people should be so naively shocked at it.

    Does anyone truly believe that ANY human activity isn't subject to the scrutiny and control of those that would underwrite it?  Who believes that only literary geniuses end up on the best-seller list?  Who believes that only the best musicians, writers, artists, etc. will get public exposure and make money?

    The simple reality is that EVERYTHING is about economics or politics.  It is either money or power that will dictate what activities are engaged in by individuals.  While you may be free to engage in whatever activities you choose on your own time, even the concept of your "own time" belies the reality that a significant portion of your time belongs to someone else.

    Does that make it right?  Truthfully, I dont' know what that means.  I could equally ask whether I should give money to someone that has insulted me?  What obligation do I have to give my resources to someone I don't like?

    Similarly if your job or responsibility is to raise money for an institution, does it pay to support a genius in your ranks that will cost you millions in donations, or do you grit your teeth and accept more mediocrity in the interest of making money for your institution.  Remember, your responsibility is to raise money, not make moral or scientific judgements about an individual's work.  

    Sound too much like marketing?  Well, unless you're financing your own research, then it is.  It's always been like that.  It will be like that in the future.

    Let's be real.  No one considers the science over the individual.  No scientist would collaborate with another scientist that insists on "hitting" on their "significant other".  No scientist would collaborate or support another that continuously "hits" on them [i.e. sexual harassment].  No scientist would work with another that was physically abusive to others.  There is no end to the things we could imagine that would curtail having a collaborative relationship (1)

    What is disturbing to me, is not that it occurs.  But rather that so many intelligent people can't understand this game and play by the rules as they understand them.  Why the stubborn insistence that the rules shouldn't exist?  That simply sounds like the immature complaint that "life is unfair".

    It's easy to argue for some objective standard, except that we all know that such a thing doesn't exist.  Who is to judge?  

    So, despite all the criticism around such a system, let's put the blame where it squarely belongs.  The onus is on every scientist that thinks that they are owed a career.  Every time a decision is made that involves someone's career rather than the science they are working on, they are contributing to the "system" that they are criticizing.

    The failure of "peer-review" is a direct result of every participating scientist that contributes their name.  Similarly "important people" exist and exert influence because of all the scientists that enjoy their career trajectory.

    So, the choice is simple.  Participate and try to change the system by honest involvement, or be an outlaw and ignored.  There is no middle ground, and no amount of complaining will change it.  Here's something that could be considered a scientific law in regards to economics and politics.  Think about it:
    "In politics [or money], it doesn't matter whether you're right or not."
    The ultimate irony is that much of this is the same sentiment that was expressed during the 1960's with the notion of "dropping out" of society (2).  It didn't work then, it won't work now.

    (1) Note that the point here is that you aren't dependent on this other scientist for your career.  If you are, and you would "tolerate" this behavior, then you've already demonstrated the level of compromise that is responsible for this state of affairs.  

    (2) "Turn on, Tune in, Drop out."
    vongehr
    You are correct. Just two remarks:

    1) Quite differently from religions, lawyers, or say business, science still quite successfully claims to be especially unaffected by mere social constraints and market forces, thus justifying/demanding a special influence onto for example political decisions and education, all this while the publish-or-perish culture crisis deepens ever further.

    2) Your analysis seems too focused on the individual and her decision/ethics. The problem is systemic. It is very very difficult to even find time to think about anything else but keeping up with the rat race. For the vast majority of scientists, just thinking beyond their field is already career suicide. Scientists do no longer do science - science has evolved into a structure that creates/selects the scientists it does and uses them as it pleases to stay adapted to and adept its co-evolving social environment.
    Gerhard Adam
    ...science still quite successfully claims to be especially unaffected by mere social constraints and market forces...
    Agreed, but that's a political position and not a scientific one.  In other words, that's simply science playing politics.
    The problem is systemic.
    I have a problem with that assessment, because it suggests something beyond the individuals that make up the system.  I can appreciate that such a system can take on a life of its own, as well as being subject to a kind of evolution/selection process that is beyond the ability of any individual or even group to control.

    However, that reminds me of the arguments advanced to explain corruption in politics [or any hierarchy].  We can either use it as an excuse, we can work to change it, or we can dismantle the entire process as a failed enterprise and forget ANY organization.

    Since the third option is simply the equivalent of anarchy, it will never happen.  The first option changes nothing, so the only option is to attempt to "change it".  I'm not naive enough to believe that such an effort occurs easily, but if there is any evidence from history, is that things actually do change, even if they don't necessarily do so quickly.
    ...science has evolved into a structure that creates/selects the scientists it does and uses them as it pleases to stay adapted to and adept its co-evolving social environment.
    Well, actually I would say that the "organization of science" has evolved into such a structure, and that is directly related to the notion that being a scientist is a career choice.  In short, this statement can be applied to anyone that works for a living in any field that might be considered a career rather than just a job. 
    UvaE
    The simple reality is that EVERYTHING is about economics or politics.  It is either money or power that will dictate what activities are engaged in by individuals.  While you may be free to engage in whatever activities you choose on your own time, even the concept of your "own time" belies the reality that a significant portion of your time belongs to someone else. 
    I have a problem with this thesis. Yes economics and politics infiltrate everything, but even movies, music and books---no matter how prosaic they may be--- are not entirely shaped by economics and politics. People sacrifice standards to a certain point to keep a job or to make something sell, but it's really the craft that makes them tick. As long as the underwriters don't totally suffocate the craft, the work can still be satisfying. 
    It's also interesting to note that the underwriters aren't always control freaks. Sometimes it's those who are sponsored that are guilty of being too conscious of the power and money game.  
    Gerhard Adam
    ...but it's really the craft that makes them tick. As long as the underwriters don't totally suffocate the craft, the work can still be satisfying.
    I'm not talking about what motivates the individual to commit to some activity.  I'm talking about those that will have the power to determine whether it ever sees the light of day.
    It's also interesting to note that the underwriters aren't always control freaks. Sometimes it's those who are sponsored that are guilty of being too conscious of the power and money game.
    Also true, but it doesn't change the thesis at all.  It's only if the two entities are in balance that we have what most of us consider desirable;  fairness.  However, my point isn't that such a thing can't exist, but rather that we shouldn't be holding our collective breaths waiting for it.

     It didn't work then, it won't work now.
    "Tune in, Turn on, Drop out." 
    No wonder it didn't work. You have to turn the thing on before you can tune it in.
     
    Gerhard Adam
    Yep ... corrected :)