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    Smolin Vs Susskind: The Judge’s Decision Part 1
    By Sascha Vongehr | November 21st 2010 07:44 PM | 5 comments | Print | E-mail | Track Comments
    About Sascha

    Dr. Sascha Vongehr [风洒沙] studied phil/math/chem/phys in Germany, obtained a BSc in theoretical physics (electro-mag) & MSc (stringtheory)...

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    At the Edge you can find a rather interesting discussion between Lee Smolin and Leonard Susskind, involving all the stuff I try to demystify often.

    They fought via email, then agreed to each write a final letter on the edge. And today you can read the final judgment right here at the source from somebody who is little prejudiced by his own hidden agenda, which is by the way one of the main charges that Susskind


    repeatedly throws at Smolin,




    without realizing that it is actually mainly he himself who commits such.

    The argument is mainly (length wise, but also in a sense only on the surface while the deeper issue is another one, thus the ongoing popularity of that 2004 debate) about what is more efficient in producing a large number of universes that “populate the multiverse”: Smolin likes Darwinian evolution involving black holes, so called cosmological natural selection (CNS); Susskind loves eternal inflation involving the spawning of pocket universes.


    Such arguments make perfect sense if there is some sort of normalizable statistical ensemble given, i.e. some sort of playground that comprises 100 percent of all cases, the total that has unit
    probability. In front of such a background, you can count the improbability of whatever you seem important enough to care about, say a carbon rich chemistry in order to have conscious observers or many black holes of a certain type.


    High time for a concrete example: Given is a planet and all its molecules and different environments of wet and cold, dry and hot, high or low pressure, and so on. Or given are maybe all the planets in a galaxy. Now it makes perfect sense to ask for a mechanism that explains why there are complex systems, like humans for example, that naively expected may be very unlikely to develop at all, say by pure chance. On such a background, discussing the efficiency of different mechanisms makes perfect sense.


    We need to firstly understand the futility of their argument from a philosophical perspective: Both, black holes and pocket universes alike, are proliferated in an infinite amount, so any and all asking for more habitable universes is beside the point. Given an infinite amount, there is no point in being common. You can be rare and “uncommon”, but once infinity comes in, you will still occur an infinite amount of times. Even if eternal inflation would give (say per absolute quantum time) an infinitely larger amount of universes than a competing black hole procreation mechanism, both mechanisms give the exact same number of universes where I am writing this blog: infinite.


    This is by the way the reason why quantum physics is somewhat stuck right now: the multiverse is mistaken as direct realism, the kind of realism any philosopher rejects, even the realist ones! Realists are nowadays mostly “structural realists”. “The ultimate ensemble theory” by Max Tegmark and others is philosophically naïve realism. Such direct realism produces good physical theories in the everyday practice of most physicists trying to model some small domain, but it cannot be a good final unification, a theory of everything.


    In the argument between Smolin and Susskind, a certain version of the anthropic principle plays a large role, namely the principle of mediocrity developed heavily by Garriga and Vilenkin, which states that "our civilization is typical in the ensemble of all civilizations in the universe". Smolin is to be recommended for making this an issue, as he is not just assuming some random ensemble but actually insists on that you have to be careful about what kind of ensemble you create before you analyze it [Lee Smolin, "Scientific alternatives to the anthropic principle", hep-th/0407213]. He himself fails at the task, but he at least understands the problem. I.e., the ensemble is not just the real multiverse out there, but something you construct in such a way as to be able to do proper science with it. Susskind does not (want to?) acknowledge this.


    Next time, I will start with ripping on Smolin, Part III will rip on Susskind, and part IV will announce the winner as if anybody cares.

    Comments

    I remember the discussion some years ago and, while it's not a popularity contest, Susskind struck me as being more than a little bit pigheaded. Since this exchange six years ago Smolin has written a couple of books and given several talks essentially saying that theoretical physics is in big trouble and that somehow it's all Susskind's fault ... I may be exaggerating a smidgen but that was the impression I had.

    Bonny Bonobo alias Brat
    This is a very interesting debate between Smolin and Susskind and as it was written back in 2004 maybe they now do have more evidence now to back their claims, which you will hopefully reveal?
    Because as Smolin said
    Certainly, if the only mechanism of reproduction is eternal inflation, cosmological natural selection is wrong. But we know that there are black holes and we have reasonable theoretical evidence that black hole singularities bounce. I expect that in the next year we may have reliable quantum gravity calculations that will settle the issue, building on the methods Bojowald and collaborators have used to study cosmological bounces. So the consequences of reproduction through black holes seem reasonable to explore. Not only that, we are on firm ground when we do so because star and black hole formation are observed and controlled by known physics and chemistry.

    We know much less about
    eternal inflation. We cannot observe whether it takes place or not, and there is little near term chance to check the theories that lead to it independently, as there are alternative early universe theories-inflationary and not-that agree with all the cosmological data and do not yield reproduction through eternal inflation.
    Although I love Smolin's CNS and the idea of black holes bouncing and creating new universes, I'm also really looking forward to Part II where you 'start with ripping on Smolin'.
    Make love not war
    rychardemanne
    erm... but if we have a countably infinite number of things, say teapots, nested within an uncountably infinite space, then making a cup of tea is both certain and impossible. Teapots are both common and rare.

    I do recall a serious conversation, but some 20 years ago, about how many decimal places a particular zero should be within a black hole formula. The formula escapes me, only the lingering laughter now remains.
    vongehr
    "then making a cup of tea is both certain and impossible"

    It is certain for the teapot, independent of whether there are uncountably or countably infinite, or even just a finite number. How many is beside the point, as we do not go through different degrees of more or less existing according to whether some god observes us more or less (like some ghost randomly stabbing at the continuous real line, brewing Pixie Dust Tea whenever it hits a rational number where there is a tea pot, thus instantiating my awareness one more moment along some totally ill-conceived absolute time). I exist once, and if there is an infinity more of me (in parallel, later, else where), it does not add anything (not w/o some QM superposition/interference coming in - but such would be way beyond Smolin and Susskind's take).
    socrates
    I am very interested in seeing where this goes. I believe Smolin in on the right track with the Evolution/Natural Selection approach. I am not sure his particular rendition of it will hold up necessarily (as he, himself, admits) but that would not negate other possible implementations of a natural selection mechanism to explain cosmology and gravity.

    I am also curious about Erik Verlinde's Entropic Gravity theory recently presented as relates to a kind of evolution or emergence of gravity from more fundamental entities. I have read all three of Smolin's books and am very impressed with what he says. I have not yet educated myself on Entropic Gravity, but have heard enough to make me very curious. Can anyone tell me what was Lee Smolin's reaction to Erik Verlinde's ideas? How does Verlinde's entropic gravity compare to Smolin's  loop quantum gravity?
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